The Morality Of Saving People From Hell

1) Should one ever presume that they are qualified to judge the righteousness of another? What makes you an authority?

2) Some people believe that karmic contracts are made before we are incarnated. The "evil-doer" may well be making a karmic sacrifice on behalf of someone else, for all you or I know.

3) Some people believe there are no others.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by kimish
We can't condemn all missionaries or the entire church for doing such ugly deeds.

Why can't we? What if Christianity is entirely untrue? Let's put the ugly deeds aside for a moment and focus on that.

Doesn't that make the work of any missionary, no matter how well-intentioned, ultimately both unethical and immoral? After all, no religion has ever established their metaphysical claims as true (and many of their claims about the physical world we know are untrue). Modern missionaries certainly know that at least some of the bible's claims are not true, yet they present the book that makes those claims as knowledge. If nothing else, this is certainly unethical.

When they push it, well intentioned or not, is not the right thing to do. To help a person live a better and more productive life (be fruitful-JC) is not unethical or immoral as long as its not forced which, unfortunately, in most circumstances is the case. Now, there is a fine line between educating and forcing and fine lines are easily crossed.

If my neighbor smokes crack around their child and leaves dope where it's easily accessible to a youngster and i tell them that is wrong and why its wrong, is that immoral or unethical? Pardon the analoby but I'm just trying to make a point.

Originally posted by sirenofthedead
1) Should one ever presume that they are qualified to judge the righteousness of another? What makes you an authority?

I am an authority if I am subject to the actions of another.

2) Some people believe that karmic contracts are made before we are incarnated. The "evil-doer" may well be making a karmic sacrifice on behalf of someone else, for all you or I know.

3) Some people believe there are no others.

edit on 30/9/11 by sirenofthedead because: (no reason given)

Sure, and some people might believe that Blue Puffies will drown you in the bathtub unless they "save" you. That is their problem, not mine, and I am certainly allowed the authority to judge their righteousness.

Originally posted by kimish
I don't believe TRUE Christianity should be labeled a religion but it should be looked at as a following of the teachings of Christ Jesus. So I wouldn't say any missionary that spreads the Teachings of Christ Jesus with good intentions and doesn't push the religion side is unethical. It's like, is letting someone know how to live a better and more productive life without forcing their beliefs unethical? To the missionaries that Push their beliefs, I feel is unethical but to at least let other know where they are coming from and why, I do feel that is ethical. The sad thing is that most missionaries do push it upon others and they don't see that. Their heart is in the right place but...

Jesus is not simply presented or consumed as simply a wise man with healthy advice for good living. The only reason we pay any attention to Jesus is because he is presented as a savior of our souls; saving us all from Hell.

Originally posted by DarkKnight76
Well, once I tell you I am not interested in your voodoo mumbojumbo, then it is time to shut up and let me burn.

Agreed.

A couple Watchtower women kept coming to our door to talk to my daughter. My daughter tries not to be rude - - takes their propaganda - - then straight to the trash. So they kept coming every week - - but she works.

THEN - - they decided to direct their attention to me. One asks - - "are you concerned about all that is going on in the world?" I responded with a short - but definite NO!

Could she leave it at that? No. So she continues on asking me what my beliefs are.

I responded "I am not answering any questions". Then silence. Took her a few minutes - - but she got it.

They have not been back yet.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

I am an authority if I am subject to the actions of another.

That was well said.

Originally posted by CynicalDrivel

Originally posted by captaintyinknots
There is nothing moral about trying to tell someone what to believe or to try and change what they believe.

This is too absolute. We tell KKK members that they're wrong for their beliefs all the time, and never think about whether it is right or wrong for them to believe as they wish.

I've never had a KKK member knocking on my door - - to preach their belief.

Have you?

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Jesus is not simply presented or consumed as simply a wise man with healthy advice for good living. The only reason we pay any attention to Jesus is because he is presented as a savior of our souls; saving us all from Hell.

That is how I was raised to believe in JC but now that i'm a little older and more mature I don't agree with that mindset. Organized religion stinks and if JC were to see how things are now and with the religion of Christianity, I feel he wouldn't appreciate it.

Unfortunately you are right but I don't believe all missionaries have that train of thought. I would say 99/100 do though and that is a shame.

The existence of Hell has not been sufficiently established.

Any attempts to "save" someone from it arrive from an indefensible supposition and are likely spurious.

This is unethical.

Claiming that someone has a disease - though there is no evidence of it - and offering them the "cure" for it is unethical and immoral.

Originally posted by kimish
That is how I was raised to believe in JC but now that i'm a little older and more mature I don't agree with that mindset. Organized religion stinks and if JC were to see how things are now and with the religion of Christianity, I feel he wouldn't appreciate it.

Unfortunately you are right but I don't believe all missionaries have that train of thought. I would say 99/100 do though and that is a shame.

Well, there is only one reason we pay any attention to Jesus and it has nothing to do with his oft-quoted "wise words". If people didn't think he was there to save them from the wrath of God, few people would find his humanitarian platitudes much more than a curiosity.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
Are those people in your life who try to convert you to save you from Hell moral and correct in their actions?

If one sincerely believes in Hell and cares about you enough to try to save you from it, they must be a moral and caring person acting in the right, otherwise to let you perish would make them an amoral sociopath.

However, the more someone tries to save you, the more of an undesirable creep they are perceived to be. Religious conversion is often unwanted.

Is the attempt to save others from Hell a moral action or is it an unethical action?

I have several friends that would really like to "save" me. The problem is that they always get around to telling me that their god has a plan for me because he has a plan for all of us. This is usually when I ask how they got permission from their god to mess with his plan.

Originally posted by Sanndy

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
Are those people in your life who try to convert you to save you from Hell moral and correct in their actions?

If one sincerely believes in Hell and cares about you enough to try to save you from it, they must be a moral and caring person acting in the right, otherwise to let you perish would make them an amoral sociopath.

However, the more someone tries to save you, the more of an undesirable creep they are perceived to be. Religious conversion is often unwanted.

Is the attempt to save others from Hell a moral action or is it an unethical action?

I have several friends that would really like to "save" me. The problem is that they always get around to telling me that their god has a plan for me because he has a plan for all of us. This is usually when I ask how they got permission from their god to mess with his plan.

edit on 30-9-2011 by Sanndy because: (no reason given)

They didn't get permission, "God speaks to them and tells them to do it" is usually the response I hear or "God is working through me". I say to that.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


You are correct.

I always tell people it's the message that JC brings and to not take every thing literally.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
Well, there is only one reason we pay any attention to Jesus and it has nothing to do with his oft-quoted "wise words". If people didn't think he was there to save them from the wrath of God, few people would find his humanitarian platitudes much more than a curiosity.

I think and have experienced very few give a crap about Christ's actual words and message.

The vast majority live in fear of punishment for doing something wrong. And what exactly is that wrong?

Religious Dogma - - man's interpretation of what god means and wants.

Seriously! How hard is it to just be a good person? You don't need all the Dogma crap.

Originally posted by Annee
I think and have experienced very few give a crap about Christ's actual words and message.

I live in the Bible Belt where simple folk are plenty. There are quite a number of people who only think "Christian" mean "being a good person", and will likely never learn nor care about theology, just do as the book says. Atheists are often in peril to find themselves in the company of such types.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
Are those people in your life who try to convert you to save you from Hell moral and correct in their actions?

If one sincerely believes in Hell and cares about you enough to try to save you from it, they must be a moral and caring person acting in the right, otherwise to let you perish would make them an amoral sociopath.

However, the more someone tries to save you, the more of an undesirable creep they are perceived to be. Religious conversion is often unwanted.

Is the attempt to save others from Hell a moral action or is it an unethical action?

It is the best intention so very moral but people's pride, they won't hear so prayers for their salvation is the way.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


This guy knows how to write.

It is moral and in fact Christians are commanded to share thee gospel. Hell isn't for an hour, day, or year: it is for eternity. If you buy into the philosophy of pluralism you might believe it's immoral to be a missionary, but that's just another vain philosophy.

reply to post by 547000


Missionaries don't quite share, they usually pretty much "force" it upon others. They way they go about sharing is pushing IMHO. They don't just share on their missions, to do much more, they kind of persuade per se or manipulate, in a sense. That to me is pushing a belief upon another.

I have no problem and I applaud those that go to spread the word but I don't agree with those that go to spread the word and force it or try to make people believe that they must think a certain way.

reply to post by kimish


What, do missionaries go raping and killing? How exactly are they "forcing' it? If hell is real you have to warn them. And Jesus did say He was the only way, so they can't say don't abandon your idols.