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The Morality Of Saving People From Hell

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posted on Oct, 4 2011 @ 08:26 PM
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Originally posted by sacgamer25

Originally posted by Ashira

Originally posted by redstorm

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
It's essential in Christianity for you to believe that, otherwise when the heros of the bible come along they don't look quite as special. It's a bad literary device.

Isn't really what I was asking but, yeah. They're just stories anyways.


Originally posted by Ashira
He didn't, He gave man freewill, man walks where He wants to even if He's been blinded.

No offense but to me, this is an irrelevant answer, or rather, I just don't understand what you were saying/meant by it.


reply to post by paxnatus
 


Yeah. Maybe. I don't really know of all that. Thanks for the reply though.

edit on 4-10-2011 by redstorm because: (no reason given)


The Lord not didn't just give man freewill He also gave "Angels" freewill, some of the "Angels" rebelled and tricked man (and still is) into doing the same.


I believe that God lives outside of the bounds of the universe he created. I believe this to be the key problem with most people’s belief and understanding of God. He lives outside the laws of time and has no need for cause and effect. Steven Hawking and previous physicists actually agree with me on this, most just don’t agree with me on God.



1.As we shall see, the concept of time has no meaning before the beginning of the universe. This was first pointed out by St. Augustine. When asked: What did God do before he created the universe? Augustine didn't reply: He was preparing Hell for people who asked such questions. Instead, he said that time was a property of the universe that God created, and that time did not exist before the beginning of the universe. [Stephen Hawking, A Brief History of Time (New York: Bantam, 1988), p. 8]




The Lord God can and live inside and outside of the sandbox that He created if He so chooses. The question is: Why would He make one in the first place?




posted on Oct, 4 2011 @ 08:29 PM
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edit on 4-10-2011 by redstorm because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 4 2011 @ 08:31 PM
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Originally posted by sacgamer25
I'm not sure this answers your question or if you even need this but I will have a go. You are correct but there are 2 laws at work. You seem to only accept one of those laws. The second law is love, AKA God’s law. If you truly feel you have never done anything that would require great forgiveness than you are either a good person or a fool (sarcasm).

Those of us like myself who feel that we have done something that requires great forgiveness are overcome with a feeling when we realize that NO MATTER what that sin is we are forgiven. I needed Christ to die on the cross for me to understand this.


Well, I try to be a good person and not a fool, but I definitely have done plenty of things that deserve great forgiveness. I think I just look at it differently than you. I also view doing regrettable things as part of being human and part of learning how to be a better person. I tried to get forgiveness from those I hurt and learned to not hurt people in the future. And if there is a god and doing regrettable things angers him, wouldn't my learning how not to do it in the future be more pleasing than someone dying for it? That's the part I don't understand so much.

I do thank you very much for taking the time to answer me.



posted on Oct, 4 2011 @ 08:31 PM
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reply to post by Annee
 


Well, I do not believe mormons are Christian, they are more new age. They believe in their spirit progressing until they achieve godhood and they will be gods over their own planet. Its a spin off the new age and will be right in line with the coming antichrist. Christians believe there is only one God. But I am sure that should be a thread all in it self.

And who said I don't have a thick skin? I am just pointing out the obvious.
edit on 4-10-2011 by kwell because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 4 2011 @ 08:35 PM
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Originally posted by sacgamer25
After all we are here for less than 100 years and promised eternity.


Who promised eternity - - and why would they do that?


Each of us is confronted daily with moral choices. If each time we are confronted we would ask ourselves what love would choose one choice would always stand out.


What is love?

An external personage/spirit is not required to make ethical choices.



posted on Oct, 4 2011 @ 08:35 PM
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Originally posted by redstorm

Originally posted by Ashira
The Lord God can and live inside and outside of the sandbox that He created if He so chooses. The question is: Why would He make one in the first place?

Why for the pleasure of humanity of course. At the same time, your pleasure brings about his pleasure, like when your kid smiles, it makes you happy also.


Good answer! Quite simply: A Father makes a sandbox for His kids



posted on Oct, 4 2011 @ 08:45 PM
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ATS has moved both of my recent threads into the # bin. How fantastic.

Pardon my frustration.



posted on Oct, 4 2011 @ 08:52 PM
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reply to post by traditionaldrummer
 


It says that even non believers well be there in heaven. So based on your post and how I understand the bible I believe you are ok.

It's when someone understands the word of God, (the way I interpret it) not trying to be righteous but as you stated you read the bible and did not get the same thing out of it, has accepted forgiveness, knows their action is wrong, continues to do it, and never seeks repentance (feeling bad for what you did) I believe they have condemned themselves. For God has given them great knowledge and they have refused to be a light.

I know I am not perfect but if I continue to sin without repentance and seeking forgiveness I believe that you are more deserving, based on your statement, than me.

God made this clear that he forgave those who crucified him and they heard the word and saw the miracles first hand and did not understand. So yes Jesus is the only path to heaven simply becasue no one can enter who has not been forgiven and he has forgiven all.



posted on Oct, 4 2011 @ 08:55 PM
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reply to post by traditionaldrummer
 


You knew you couldn’t start a religious thread and assume it would stay on topic.

Let me apologize for my eagerness to stay off topic.



posted on Oct, 4 2011 @ 08:58 PM
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reply to post by Ashira
 



I agree but so many try and understand based on what we see in our universe and he is simply not confined to it.
Well I'm alive so I have to believe it was for me, and everyone else that can ponder that question.



posted on Oct, 4 2011 @ 08:58 PM
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reply to post by sacgamer25
 

Non believers will not be in heaven, the Bible makes that very clear. The only way to get to heaven is to believe(trust) in Jesus Christ.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


If you don't have the blood of Jesus Christ to cover yours sins you are in trouble.



posted on Oct, 4 2011 @ 09:06 PM
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"Heaven" and "hell," then, as men have imagined them, have no existence?

"They are only symbols; there are happy and unhappy spirits everywhere. Nevertheless, as we have also told you, spirits of the same order are brought together by sympathy; but, when they are perfect, they can meet together wherever they will."
The localization of rewards and punishments in fixed places exists only in man's imagination; it proceeds from his' tendency to materialize and to circumscribe the things of which he cannot comprehend the essential infinitude.


What is to be understood by Purgatory?

"Physical and moral suffering; the period of expiation. It is almost always upon the earth that you are made by God to undergo your purgatory, and to expiate your wrong-doing." What men call purgatory is also a figure of speech, that should be understood as signifying, not any determinate place, but the state of imperfect spirits who have to expiate their faults until they have attained the complete purification that will raise them to the state of perfect blessedness. As this purification is effected by means of various incarnations, purgatory consists in the trials of corporeal life.

More info
edit on 4-10-2011 by Shadow Herder because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 4 2011 @ 09:14 PM
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reply to post by sacgamer25
 


Thanks, sacgamer25. I'm afraid that a lot of the bible's precepts remain a bit confusing for me. The best I can say is that if there is a god and he dislikes what I do there's not much I can do. I have to try to learn from all my experiences to try to constantly improve myself, to avoid making mistakes, to always do what's best, etc. If a god must condemn me for that then I'll have no choice but to accept it.

Thank you for sharing your views. I have enjoyed the conversation.



posted on Oct, 4 2011 @ 09:19 PM
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Originally posted by kwell
reply to post by Annee
 


Well, I do not believe mormons are Christian


I'm not going to discuss Mormons again - - other then to tell you they definitely are Christian. Their only savior is Jesus Christ. They study the bible. The Book of Mormon is kind of a side history book. Like an additional missing history. I was a member for 5 years - - and very rarely used the Book of Mormon.

As said before - - there are more then 3000 Christian sects. Each one - of course - believing they are the "true" Christian. None of them need agree with your version.

Oh - - and some Mormons feel insulted if you call them Christian. I personally think its kind of stupid believers in the same god fighting over dogma.
edit on 4-10-2011 by Annee because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 4 2011 @ 09:20 PM
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Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
reply to post by sacgamer25
 


Thanks, sacgamer25. I'm afraid that a lot of the bible's precepts remain a bit confusing for me. The best I can say is that if there is a god and he dislikes what I do there's not much I can do. I have to try to learn from all my experiences to try to constantly improve myself, to avoid making mistakes, to always do what's best, etc. If a god must condemn me for that then I'll have no choice but to accept it.

Thank you for sharing your views. I have enjoyed the conversation.
The rule of good and evil, what may be called the rule of reciprocity or solidarity, cannot be applied to a man's to personal conduct towards himself. Does he find, in natural law, the rule of that conduct, and a safe guide?

"When you eat too much, it hurts you. God gives you, in the discomfort thus produced, the measure of what is necessary for you. When you exceed that measure, you are punished. It is the same with everything else. Natural law traces out for each man the limit of his needs; when he oversteps that limit he is punished by the suffering thus caused. If men gave heed, in all things, to the voice which says to them 'enough!' they would avoid the greater part of the ills of which they accuse nature."

Why does evil exist in the nature of things? I speak of moral evil. Could not God have created the human race in more favorable conditions?

"We have already told you that spirits are created simple and ignorant. God leaves man free to choose his road; so much the worse for him if he takes the wrong one; his pilgrimage will be all the longer. If there were no mountains, man could not comprehend the possibility of ascending and descending; if there were no rocks, he could not understand that there are such things as hard bodies. It is necessary for the spirit to acquire experience; and, to that end, he must know both good and evil. It is for this purpose that souls are united to bodies."



edit on 4-10-2011 by Shadow Herder because: (no reason given)

edit on 4-10-2011 by Shadow Herder because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 4 2011 @ 09:23 PM
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Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by kwell
reply to post by Annee
 


Well, I do not believe mormons are Christian


I'm not going to discuss Mormons again - - other then to tell you they definitely are Christian. Their only savior is Jesus Christ. They study the bible. The Book of Mormon is kind of a side history book. Like an additional missing history. I was a member for 5 years - - and very rarely used the Book of Mormon.

As said before - - there are more then 3000 Christian sects. Each one - of course - believing they are the "true" Christian. None of them need agree with your version.


Watch this movie..... www.youtube.com...



posted on Oct, 4 2011 @ 09:30 PM
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Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
ATS has moved both of my recent threads into the # bin. How fantastic.

Pardon my frustration.


Uh huh. Yet they themselves post a thread specific to protecting religious discussion.

Go figure.



posted on Oct, 4 2011 @ 09:34 PM
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Originally posted by kwell

Watch this movie.....


NO! Were you a member of the Mormon church for several years?

I was. Personal in-the-flesh experience.

Done

EDIT: and here is the main website of the person who made that video you want me to watch. Extremists much?

PinPoint Evangelism - - PinPoint Evangelism is an evangelistic ministry that God has granted to Kerrigan Skelly and his family. They consider it an honor and a privilege to serve the Body of Christ in such a way and to be blessed by God with this calling. PinPoint Evangelism has two main purposes given to it by God:

www.pinpointevangelism.com...
edit on 4-10-2011 by Annee because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 4 2011 @ 09:34 PM
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Originally posted by kwell
reply to post by sacgamer25
 

Non believers will not be in heaven, the Bible makes that very clear. The only way to get to heaven is to believe(trust) in Jesus Christ.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


If you don't have the blood of Jesus Christ to cover yours sins you are in trouble.


Mathew 1-5
1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

Then Jesus told him, "I have come to judge the world. I have come to give sight to the blind and to show those who think they see that they are blind." The Pharisees who were standing there heard him and asked, "Are you saying we are blind?" "If you were blind, you wouldn't be guilty," Jesus replied. "But you remain guilty because you claim you can see. (NLT, John 9:39-41)

Paul, too, writes that those who have not heard the Gospel (the pagan Gentiles) may attain the equivalent, in their own hearts, by other means:
God will punish the Gentiles when they sin, even though they never had God's written law. And he will punish the Jews when they sin, for they do have the law. For it is not merely knowing the law that brings God's approval. Those who obey the law will be declared right in God's sight. Even when Gentiles, who do not have God's written law, instinctively follow what the law says, they show that in their hearts they know right from wrong. They demonstrate that God's law is written within them, for their own consciences either accuse them or tell them they are doing what is right. The day will surely come when God, by Jesus Christ, will judge everyone's secret life. This is my message. (NLT, Romans 2:12-16)

1 Tim. 4:10, "For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers."
1 John 2:2, "and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."
1 John 4:14, "And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world."

If you understand these verses God clearly states that everyone knows Gods law whether written or not. He also clearly came to forgive all; you have to remember the written word has only been well published for a few centuries. And in some places in the world the bible is against the law. God's glory is poured out on all and by not any act you do. Isn't believing in something you read an act you do? If you say that anyone who does not believe what they read or heard about Jesus is going to hell aren’t you judging someone else’s sin?

The bible makes it clear there are 2 types condemned to hell.
Believers that continue to sin even after they have received God’s forgiveness and knowledge and do not repent.
And non believers who refuse to abide by the law (morals) that have been placed in them

traditionaldrummer claims to be blind so my statement remains correct, if he is the person he claims in his post.

edit on 4-10-2011 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 4 2011 @ 09:38 PM
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Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by kwell

Watch this movie.....


NO! Were you a member of the Mormon church for several years?

I was. Personal in-the-flesh experience.

Done.
edit on 4-10-2011 by Annee because: spelling


No. I have researched them indepth, combed through all their books, noticed all their ties to freemasonry and satanism, spent my whole life fighting against them and trying to pull people out of their cult. Really, do more research.



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