The Morality Of Saving People From Hell

reply to post by Shadow Herder


Didn't answer my question about Constantine.

Originally posted by Shadow Herder

Originally posted by Annee
I am 65. I was raised Christian - - I spent most of my life as a believer in search of what god belief was right for me.

I had OBE's and other experiences since birth. My mom's best friend came from a family of psychics. My mom belonged to a group in the 50s called the Mental shop - - about UFOs and other super natural stuff.

What other experiences do you think I need?

WTH??? You just said

I am Atheist. I do not believe in a deity/god - - - whether known or unknown.

The unknown is the unknown. Simple. We learn more about the unknown as science evolves.

Which one is it? Are you saying that you were raised around religious/ufo/ and "other supernatural stuff" and became an atheist or you just believe in all the stuff but just not in a god?

I guess you still have a lot to learn.

Why do you need to be needed?

Originally posted by Shadow Herder

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Shadow Herder

Whatever you call it is up to you and you're welcome to it.

some people have been trying to understand that unknown since the dawn of man.

I am Atheist. I do not believe in a deity/god - - - whether known or unknown.

The unknown is the unknown. Simple. We learn more about the unknown as science evolves.

I am sad and glad to say that one day you will have a religious experience. The answers you seek will furnish themselves to you in the form of experience. It need not you believe in anything. Its your life. I hope its good. It doesnt sound like its too rocking but that just my senses again.

edit on 3-10-2011 by Shadow Herder because: (no reason given)

I had a religious experience... afterward I out my pants back on, paid the hore and went about my day. This thread is irrelevent. Morality is relative your point of view. One mans saviour is another mans evil. It's unlikely that ant person will be converted by having anyones point of view shoved down their throats so why bother?

reply to post by traditionaldrummer

But I have no reason to believe the bible, or that there is a creator, or that there is a Kingdom. Those are all just claims in a book. We can't see any creators or kingdoms. Why should I believe the book?

Where is the law of God inscribed?

"In the conscience."

-- Since man carries the law of God in his conscience, where was the need of revealing it to him?

"He had forgotten and misunderstood it; God willed that it should be recalled to his memory."

Has God given to some men the mission of revealing His law?

"Yes, certainly. In every age there have been men who have received this mission; spirits of higher degree, who have incarnated themselves for the purpose of advancing human progress."

Have not those who have professed to instruct mankind sometimes made mistakes, and led them astray by false reasonings?

"Those who, not being inspired by God, have arrogated to themselves, through ambition, a mission which they had not received, may, undoubtedly, have led them into error; nevertheless, as, after all, they were men of genius, great truths are often to be found, even in the midst of the errors they taught."

Originally posted by sacgamer25
reply to post by Annee

 

My apologies for the misunderstanding. I sincerely hope I have not offended you. But based on what your comment I would still make the same recommendation.

I said I spent 5 years as a Mormon. What part of that comment did you not understand?

In reality - - - Mormons (who are Christian) are and practice a lifestyle - - - "regular" Christians only talk about.

reply to post by hudsonhawk69


Haha. The asshole in me wants to agree but shadow herder is fun guy. Bit of a ##snipped##, but he knows a lot of big words. Always has a comeback even if it has nothing to do with the post he is apparently responding to. Good times.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by sacgamer25
reply to post by Annee

 

My apologies for the misunderstanding. I sincerely hope I have not offended you. But based on what your comment I would still make the same recommendation.

I said I spent 5 years as a Mormon. What part of that comment did you not understand?

In reality - - - Mormons (who are Christian) are and practice a lifestyle - - - "regular" Christians only talk about.

I agree completely most Mormons appear to be very peaceful and they work very hard to be sin free. Much in the same way the Israelites prior to Jesus tried to obey the law of God. This is not a bad thing but most Mormons don't fully understand Grace and the Holy Spirit. The same can be said about Christians who have not read the bible for themselves or attend a church that is more interested in their wallet than their sole.

I do not in any way want to portray myself as better than anyone else as I do not believe that I am. I have broken all the commandments and yes I mean all 10. I would consider myself like Paul in the New Testament. If God can show me Grace and the Holy Spirit than certainly everyone must be worthy of this gift.

1st Timothy 12-17
12 I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me trustworthy, appointing me to his service. 13 Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. 14 The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.
15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. 16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. 17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

So God’s challenge to you read/listen to the entire bible with an open mind.
Luke 11:9
"And so I tell you, keep on asking, and you will receive what you ask for. Keep on seeking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened to you.

reply to post by Shadow Herder

The Bible also tells us that the world was created in six days, and fixes the epoch of this creation at about 4000 years before the Christian era. Previously to that period the earth did not exist. At that period it was produced out of nothing. Such is the formal declaration of the sacred text, yet science, positive, inexorable steps in with proof to the contrary. The history of the formation of the globe is written in indestructible characters in the worlds of fossils, proving beyond the possibility of denial that the six days of the creation are successive periods, each of which may have been of millions of ages.

I see where you are coming from and the possible dilemma. I don't know all the answers, but this is what I heard... which seems to make sense to me....

Man has been on the earth about 7000 years now. But this is not the whole story. If you read the last book of Job (which many consider to be the oldest book in the Bible...) you will read a whole chapter about a dinosaur
called Leviathan (actually the chapters around this one are all very interesting).

Description of Leviathan by God
...a slice: "20 Smoke goes out of his nostrils,
As from a boiling pot and burning rushes."... awesome stuff

Also... there is a scripture that Satan 'weakened the nations' when he rebelled against God. What nations? The common answer is that the timeline refers to a time before Satan fell... before the garden, Adam and Eve, and the snake, and all of that. The nations or whatever were here in pre-history... The verse for this is: You who weakened the nations!

As far as I'm concerned, there is no contradiction.....It's all biblically based. No schism exists.

The 'beginning', as far as we/most ppl know, and as you state, are described in Genesis chapt. 1.
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void;

... but it Did Exist beforehand. It was not 'just created'... The earth was a mudball, and was something entirely different before mankind got here. I have no probs with that.

I hope this helps.

Originally posted by sacgamer25
. . . but most Mormons don't fully understand Grace and the Holy Spirit.

What utter crap!

Mormons are so well organized they live their belief - - Christian - - 24/7.

They are the real deal when it comes to actually living life as every Christian should - - - most "regular" Christians just flap their gums.

reply to post by Shadow Herder


I have avoided asking but since you call out another to put a label on what he is...understandably so by the way but that is besides the point...will you tell me what you are? As far as religious denominations go? You obviously view yourself as some type of metaphysician...ontologist, whatever. You are obviously not of the literal interpretation denominations.. I am curious to know....perhaps you put no label on yourself?

Originally posted by FloatingGhost
reply to post by Shadow Herder

 

I have avoided asking but since you call out another to put a label on what he is...understandably so by the way but that is besides the point...will you tell me what you are? As far as religious denominations go? You obviously view yourself as some type of metaphysician...ontologist, whatever. You are obviously not of the literal interpretation denominations.. I am curious to know....perhaps you put no label on yourself?

edit on 3-10-2011 by FloatingGhost because: (no reason given)

Would it be easier to bash me or imagine me as inferior if I were part of some group or catergory?
I am 1 in 6.5 billion.

Originally posted by Shadow Herder

Originally posted by FloatingGhost
reply to post by Shadow Herder

 

I have avoided asking but since you call out another to put a label on what he is...understandably so by the way but that is besides the point...will you tell me what you are? As far as religious denominations go? You obviously view yourself as some type of metaphysician...ontologist, whatever. You are obviously not of the literal interpretation denominations.. I am curious to know....perhaps you put no label on yourself?

edit on 3-10-2011 by FloatingGhost because: (no reason given)

Would it be easier to bash me or imagine me as inferior if I were part of some group or catergory?
I am 1 in 6.5 billion.

Are you afraid to tell us if you subsribe to an organised religion?

Nope, I dont goto church. Christ or god or whatever is not there.

I am human.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by sacgamer25
. . . but most Mormons don't fully understand Grace and the Holy Spirit.

What utter crap!

Mormons are so well organized they live their belief - - Christian - - 24/7.

They are the real deal when it comes to actually living life as every Christian should - - - most "regular" Christians just flap their gums.

I appear to be more acquainted than you with the religion you were a part of for 5 years. This time I will provide a link so that you may know that this is not an opinion but a fact that the Mormon Church teaches things that clearly contradict the bible.

reasontobelieve.blogspot.com...

The second type of salvation is called “Individual Salvation.” Now individual salvation is an important one and as stated in Mormon doctrine, this type of salvation is “salvation by works.” (Articles of Faith by James Talmage, pages 92, 144. 2 Nephi 25:23, Alma 7:16, Doctrines & Covenants 132:12). So what exactly are these works that one must do? One Mormon I spoke with gave me a list. He said the following were necessary for salvation to the “highest level”:
Baptism in a Mormon church
Regular attendance at Mormon Church
Consistent good works
Attaining worthiness
Engaging in temple work (rituals)

Now for the bible

Eph. 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. 9Not by works, lest any man should boast."

Here is a link that better describes the meaning of Grace and salvation.
carm.org...

reply to post by Shadow Herder


Just an honest question...I have never tried to bash you for your beliefs. If it was perceived I did I apologize, sincerely. I have bashed you a bit but your person...not your beliefs. I have been baptized and confirmed Lutheran. Though obviously I do not have the same beliefs I did at 13.

Originally posted by Shadow Herder
Nope, I dont goto church. Christ or god or whatever is not there.

I am human.

"True Knowledge"?

reply to post by Shadow Herder


1 in 6 billion huh? What was brad Pitts line in fight club? I am not a beautiful and unique snowflake...I am the all singing all dancing crap of the world. Lol JUST a joke..like the avatar...love the movie.

Originally posted by sacgamer25
I appear to be more acquainted than you with the religion you were a part of for 5 years. This time I will provide a link so that you may know that this is not an opinion but a fact that the Mormon Church teaches things that clearly contradict the bible.

No - you don't.

There are more then 3000 different Christian sects. Why is that?

Because there are so many interpretations of the bible. If the bible was so perfect - - - there would not be so many discrepancies on/in meanings.

The religions I've experienced.

Lutheran
Presbyterian
Four Square
Baptist
Catholic
Mormon
Religious Science
Episcopalian
Greek Orthodox
Wicca
Taoism
and others.

Wiccans were the most loving and accepting of all people.

Latter Day Saints - - - is the one organized religion that actually lives 24/7 the teachings of Christ. Christ would be very very proud of Mormons.

I don't really have anything good to say about any of the other Christian churches I attended.

So - - keep your "I'm the true religion superiority" in check.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by sacgamer25
. . . but most Mormons don't fully understand Grace and the Holy Spirit.

What utter crap!

Mormons are so well organized they live their belief - - Christian - - 24/7.

They are the real deal when it comes to actually living life as every Christian should - - - most "regular" Christians just flap their gums.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's one thing to live what most ppl consider to be a moral life. Yes, that's not to be slighted. But what God is concerned with most, is: 'What did we do with Jesus"?

the LORD looks at the heart...

Since Jesus died for us... what did we do with that? If we say to God: "well.. I lived a moral life... I followed the 10 commandments.... I did good deeds.... I was a good wife/husband and neighbor. Therefore, you have to let me into heaven. Guess what? That's good... but if Jesus died for you (which He did), then when it's all said and done, you might have done those things... but Jesus' death and resurrection are what gives us salvation, not our good deeds. In fact, if we try to rely on such, it's almost like saying to God: "well, Jesus died for me, but that wasn't really necessary. I am a good person all by myself, and didn't need Him to do that....". That's a big slap in the face to God.

A true Christian life is not all about me. A true Christian life is 'All about Him/Jesus'. It's good to do good deeds, as long as we know Who our salvation is based on.

far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name

If we don't have that perspective, then we are truly lost.

Originally posted by FloatingGhost
reply to post by Shadow Herder

 

1 in 6 billion huh? What was brad Pitts line in fight club? I am not a beautiful and unique snowflake...I am the all singing all dancing crap of the world. Lol JUST a joke..like the avatar...love the movie.

No connection between what |I said and my avatar