The Morality Of Saving People From Hell

reply to post by Klassified


Agreed. Share their faith but don't push their faith onto someone. In your opinion would you say missionaries push their faith or just "spread" it?

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


It's unethical if the message is in any way forced.

Otherwise people should feel entirely free to discuss what they believe to be true and why.

Originally posted by kimish
In your opinion would you say missionaries push their faith or just "spread" it?

Missionaries push it like drugs and spread it like V.D.

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reply to post by traditionaldrummer


I agree. Their heart is in the right place but I honestly think as Christians they need to study Christ Jesus a little bit better. I have family, an uncle that is ordained, and his wife and children are missionaries. Every year they go somewhere. I'm against it. I can't wait until the next family reunion

Originally posted by kimish
reply to post by Klassified

 

Agreed. Share their faith but don't push their faith onto someone. In your opinion would you say missionaries push their faith or just "spread" it?

It really depends on the missionaries. Different ones have different ways of doing it. Some are very "in your face". And some are much more subtle, and prefer to just let their lifestyle speak for itself.

Here again though, many christians take the parable in Luke 14:15-24 to mean they are supposed to compel us heathens to get saved to the best of their ability.

Luke 14:23 “Then the master told his servant, ‘Go out to the roads and country lanes and compel them to come in, so that my house will be full.

It's talking about the Jews having rejected their messiah, and God sending his servants to the gentiles. And he does tell them to compel. So take it for what you will.

It depends on your faith for its not right to force a particular religion, since most are distortions, but contain love and light squares too. Its right to go the extra mile, to be the kindness someone needs when they're at the brink, to have good advise when someone is lost, and going to do wrong, to be gentle and listen to others, and to demonstrate the higher principles of Love, and show nudge and help people to reach within and connect to their spirtual knowing, to meditate, and discover that the world isn't what they think, to look beneath the radar, to share that problems are meant to be solved but we're supposed to lend a helping hand to others in need and help them carry their burdens. That we have had wonderful teachers, metaphorical or real in Christ and Budda, but that religions need discernment, to see only the Love, and not the God of war, smiting and vengeance.

And no not in one day, not to force, but gentle nudges and some intelligent converstations at time, can really help.

reply to post by Klassified


I can agree but, going to a nation with virtually no crime where everyone cares for another, basically living the life that Christ Jesus tried to teach us to live, and trying to spread the "gospel" is wrong in my eyes because they already have it "right" to begin with.

Once again, I do agree on your point though

They go on missions because to them without Christ Jesus they won't enter Heaven. I don't really believe that and I was brought up a devout "Christian".

And who's to say when Christ Jesus said "the only way to the father is through me (or something like that)" he didn't mean that "I am teaching you the right way to go about things in life and how to live a proper life so you may enter into the kingdom of our Father". I hope you see my point.

Missionary work is simply theological fascism. I find it insidious to exploit the people and problems in faraway communities to promote your unproven beliefs (especially when derived from a book making many claims we now know are untrue). It would be far more humanitarian to bring such people education, vocation and critical thinking skills - with a prejudice against superstition. Just my opinion.

reply to post by kimish


No problem. I do see your point.

I think one of the things that really bothers me is the great loss of historical records at the hands of "religious" zealots under the guise of christianity. Like the conquistadors, who burned the majority of the written Maya history and records. The things we could have learned. *Heavy Sigh*

Originally posted by alienreality

Originally posted by captaintyinknots
There is nothing moral about trying to tell someone what to believe or to try and change what they believe.

Ahh, I see... So then, the guy that I talked out of believing his life wasn't worth living and that he really should not jump from a 16 story balcony, because I believe his life IS worth while, So I should have just agreed with him and watched him jump?....

edit on 30-9-2011 by alienreality because: (no reason given)

You are confusing emotions with a belief. Someone in a depressed state is not a comparison to how someone views their spirituality and eternity.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
Missionary work is simply theological fascism. I find it insidious to exploit the people and problems in faraway communities to promote your unproven beliefs (especially when derived from a book making many claims we now know are untrue). It would be far more humanitarian to bring such people education, vocation and critical thinking skills - with a prejudice against superstition. Just my opinion.

Missionaries' goals were to subjugate the people, confiscate their land, put the native poplulation to work in the plantations and mines, and make them abandon their culture and language, or else die at the hands of the church and their henchmen.

How many Christian slave drivers were there in Christian history. When did the Roman Catholic Church condemn slavery? When did Christian missionaries ever do anything other than assault humanity?

youtu.be...

reply to post by windword


How many Islamic slave drivers were there in history? Just saying. The total idea of Missionaries was not for slaves. I absolutely can't stand when people bring that up (no offense to you) but Christians weren't the only ones. Just like whites werent the only slave owners, etc.

Missionaries are on a mission to "save" people through Christ Jesus. There are always a few bad seeds in the bunch.

Originally posted by kimish
reply to post by windword

 

How many Islamic slave drivers were there in history? Just saying. The total idea of Missionaries was not for slaves. I absolutely can't stand when people bring that up (no offense to you) but Christians weren't the only ones. Just like whites werent the only slave owners, etc.

Missionaries are on a mission to "save" people through Christ Jesus. There are always a few bad seeds in the bunch.

It should be clear then that missionary work has a notably negative effect. Religious conversion via violence or coercion or as the goal of a mission is unethical and immoral. To not only throw a wrench into another culture but to their minds is especially insidious. Truly humanitarian work is a far greater alternative than introducing foreign religious superstition by any means.

reply to post by kimish


Excuse me but....."balony!"

Missionaries were the first wave in a planned and insidious attack on native peoples all over the world, for the purpose of colonization out greed and power. TPTB wanted the land and the resources, and the people there were resources as well. Churches were rich. Missionaries were put in place in order to seduce and control the population with the fear of hell and to shame of the leaders of their evil cultures.

Abrahamic religions are all rife with slavery, its in the Bible! Missionaries of all kinds promoted theft, coersion and slavery.

reply to post by windword


Sources?
I see where you're getting at but that wasn't the sole purpose of making people missionaries. Yes, missionaries were used for the purpose that you stated but you can't honestly say all missionaries or the entire Church set for missionaries for that purpose. That is "bologna". Even non religious peoples used slaves and promoted it. Slavery was around before organized religion. Marinate on that.

Sources would be much appreciated, not only to me but other readers


And I did say there are always a few bad seeds, correct?

reply to post by kimish


You want me to find sources that prove that Christianity was used by the TPTB to steal gold, capture slaves, take land and put natives to work on plantations and mines, and forbid the use of native language and demonize their culture?

Sorry, I'm not going to do a book report for you. If you can't accept what has been done....well ok.

BTW, Hawaii, the book by James Michener, later made into 2 movies, is based on the true story of the lives and times of the missionaries to Hawaii. It is historic truth.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


I am a devout Christian, but I would spit in the face of those suckas. I love Christ with all my heart, thats why I have turned my cheek to them suckas but I would...

reply to post by windword


I feel you but it isn't right to ostracize Christians because the fact of the matter is they weren't the only ones. They didn't even initiate the practice and it wasn't all Christians or The entire Church. And more often than not the slave were sold to the Christians. Do you honestly think a group of 100 individuals could take over a community of 800 (not actual figures but you get the gist )

I'm with you though, I don't believe in the Christian "organized" religion nor do I believe in most missionaries going forth with their missions. We could do a whole book report (I too, like you, don't do other peoples homework , i'm on your side) on the Arabic slave trade of Africans before Christ Jesus even existed. Just saying. We can't condemn all missionaries or the entire church for doing such ugly deeds.

And Christians weren't the only or even first group of peoples to exploit others for their resources.

The world is an ugly place and the more knowledge we gain the uglier it gets.

Originally posted by kimish
We can't condemn all missionaries or the entire church for doing such ugly deeds.

Why can't we? What if Christianity is entirely untrue? Let's put the ugly deeds aside for a moment and focus on that.

Doesn't that make the work of any missionary, no matter how well-intentioned, ultimately both unethical and immoral? After all, no religion has ever established their metaphysical claims as true (and many of their claims about the physical world we know are untrue). Modern missionaries certainly know that at least some of the bible's claims are not true, yet they present the book that makes those claims as knowledge. If nothing else, this is certainly unethical.

My take on this subject is that if someone is not seeking the Creator then they will not find the Creator. If the Creator has placed someone in your path that is seeking the truth of their soul then if the spirit moves you to speak to them you should allow the Creator to speak through you to the seeker of this knowledge.

I do not believe in proselytizing. That is kind of like trawl net fishing. I just do not think that is the way we are supposed to help others find the truth.