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The Morality Of Saving People From Hell

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posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 02:33 PM
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Originally posted by racasan
You seem determined to not responded about your argument from popularity or that people might consider it a veiled threat



Originally posted by sacgamer25

I know, it would be nice if the atheist and anti-Christian agenda wasn't taught in our schools and forced into our kid’s heads through the media. T



Could you give an example of this?


I am a little hesitant because some of you will find this response less than politically correct.

TOE (unproven no matter what you think)
Age of the universe (unproven no matter what you think)
Age of the earth (unproven no matter what you think)

Sexual morality (you know premarital sex, glorified one-night-stand, living with partner pre marriage) This list could go on for a while but the media makes all of these things seem normal and ok.
Homosexuality (I do not judge others so please don’t judge me) Yes my daughters high school has a gay club, and a straight for gay rights club. Like it or not this is anti-Christian and even if it wasn’t I’m not sure how this belongs in the school.

New age thinking in the media (Anti-all pre existing religions)
Idol Worship (movie stars, athletes)
Money Worship (Material possessions)
Coveting (Commercials that make you feel less human if you’re not driving a fancy car)

I think I could make this list much longer but I think this is enough to make my point.




posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 02:36 PM
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Originally posted by sacgamer25
I think I could make this list much longer but I think this is enough to make my point.


Except that nothing in your examples amounts to atheistic beliefs.

Did you have a valid point you wanted to make? Do you have any comment on the actual topic?



posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 02:42 PM
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Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by sacgamer25
Since most Christians have not read the bible, and even less have a true understanding of science it is obvious that they will lose the debate. Most Christians debate purely on faith so it would be difficult for them to win a debate. I would consider myself above average in knowledge of TOE but only average in other sciences. So I myself could lose a debate in certain fields of science.


Oh this paragraph bears repeating to stand alone.

WHAT?????????

Where did I mention anything about science?



A link: (by the way - - I find it interesting Mormons are among the highest-scoring. I was Mormon for 5 years. And Oh Yeah! They are diligent about knowing the bible. Most non-Mormons would argue that)

U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey



Atheists and agnostics, Jews and Mormons are among the highest-scoring groups on a new survey of religious knowledge, outperforming evangelical Protestants, mainline Protestants and Catholics on questions about the core teachings, history and leading figures of major world religions.

pewforum.org...



posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 02:48 PM
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Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by sacgamer25
I think I could make this list much longer but I think this is enough to make my point.


Except that nothing in your examples amounts to atheistic beliefs.

Did you have a valid point you wanted to make? Do you have any comment on the actual topic?


In order to be an athiest you must believe in TOE, which also includes beleif in Age of earth and universe. If not than you believe in nothing.



posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 02:55 PM
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Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by sacgamer25

I have provided solid logical evidence to the authenticity of Christ and the Bible. You choose not to accept that evidence.


Correct, because your evidence doesn't meet any reasonable or rational standard. It simply amounts to the fact that since you believe it, others should also. It has forced you into at least one delusion: that our finest scientific theory devised is untrue - simply for the reason that it refutes a claim in a book you admire.

I think this will make it the sixth request. Produce the deity you claim exists. I don't care what your book says. Demonstrate that a deity exists, not just assert it.


These are not links to religious rhetoric. They are links to questions that TOE does not, cannot, and will never be able to answer.

www.aboundingjoy.com...
www.newgeology.us...
en.wikipedia.org...
www.youtube.com...
www.christiananswers.net...
www.trueorigin.org...

You can't believe in God because I cannot prove it but you believe in TOE without proof.

If you claim intelligence how could this be true? I would be more likely to accept the person who believes in neither creationism nor TOE but you insist on believing in something that cannot be proven and bash me for believing is something that YOU believe cannot be proven.

I am not an uneducated Creationist. I did not come to this belief on faith; I actually believe that it is possible that TOE and the bible could co-exist. To be perfectly honest not one of my beliefs is based solely on faith. It is you that rejects my sound intellectual argument and provides no argument of your own. You do not have to agree with my argument but to continue to insult my intelligence I find completely unwarranted.

I appear to know more about TOE than you and most of the posters here at ATS.

And all my arguments have been directly related to the OPs point. How can I convince you that God wants me to help save you from hell if you won't even believe God exists? (Please do not think I am saying anyone is going to hell, I do not judge others and have no idea who is or is not going to hell)



edit on 3-10-2011 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 02:56 PM
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Originally posted by sacgamer25

In order to be an athiest you must believe in TOE, which also includes beleif in Age of earth and universe. If not than you believe in nothing.


No, that is incorrect. Atheism has no requirement that anyone accept TOE. Additionally, TOE does not predict the ages of the universe or earth.

Sir, you need more education on TOE and atheism and likely a host of other topics. Please stick to the thread topic. This thread is not about your opinions on the accuracy of the bible nor the inaccuracies of TOE.

Did you have an opinion on the topic?



posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 02:57 PM
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Originally posted by sacgamer25
You can't believe in God because I cannot prove it but you believe in TOE without proof.


This thread is not about your opinions on the theory of evolution.

Did you have an opinion on the thread topic?



posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 03:02 PM
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Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by sacgamer25

In order to be an athiest you must believe in TOE, which also includes beleif in Age of earth and universe. If not than you believe in nothing.


No, that is incorrect. Atheism has no requirement that anyone accept TOE. Additionally, TOE does not predict the ages of the universe or earth.

Sir, you need more education on TOE and atheism and likely a host of other topics. Please stick to the thread topic. This thread is not about your opinions on the accuracy of the bible nor the inaccuracies of TOE.

Did you have an opinion on the topic?



I guess I have to resort to your way of thinking. Unless you can provide proof that an atheist exist that does not believe in TOE I have to assume that all atheist believe in TOE. I have met several atheists and so far science, including TOE, is at the core of their belief. They believe science has formulated a more logical answer than a deity.
edit on 3-10-2011 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 03:08 PM
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Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by sacgamer25
You can't believe in God because I cannot prove it but you believe in TOE without proof.


This thread is not about your opinions on the theory of evolution.

Did you have an opinion on the thread topic?


My continued answers to your posts are indeed proof of my opinion. I'm sorry you don't understand this.
This thread is precisely about this. If you read all my posts you will see I am attempting to debunk all things that stand in the way of the bible. It is non believers that keep this post off topic. But in case you or anyone missed it here was my opinion.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I guess it is now time to dust off my feet and walk away from your replies.



posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 03:14 PM
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Originally posted by sacgamer25

I am a little hesitant because some of you will find this response less than politically correct.

TOE (unproven no matter what you think)
Age of the universe (unproven no matter what you think)
Age of the earth (unproven no matter what you think)


There is data and the analysis/ interpretation of that data that shows TOE and old universe/earth are valid theories

My science classes covered how the data was gathered and why those observations are interpreted as they are and many of the steps that supported that interpretation – and no god(s) are >needed< as an explanation in any of that

As far as I am concerned, science has met its burden of proof


As for the rest of your post I recommend you review Matthew 7




Sexual morality (you know premarital sex, glorified one-night-stand, living with partner pre marriage) This list could go on for a while but the media makes all of these things seem normal and ok.
Homosexuality (I do not judge others so please don’t judge me) Yes my daughters high school has a gay club, and a straight for gay rights club. Like it or not this is anti-Christian and even if it wasn’t I’m not sure how this belongs in the school.

New age thinking in the media (Anti-all pre existing religions)
Idol Worship (movie stars, athletes)
Money Worship (Material possessions)
Coveting (Commercials that make you feel less human if you’re not driving a fancy car)

I think I could make this list much longer but I think this is enough to make my point.




posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 03:20 PM
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Originally posted by sacgamer25

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by sacgamer25
I think I could make this list much longer but I think this is enough to make my point.


Except that nothing in your examples amounts to atheistic beliefs.

Did you have a valid point you wanted to make? Do you have any comment on the actual topic?


In order to be an athiest you must believe in TOE, which also includes beleif in Age of earth and universe. If not than you believe in nothing.


The only requirement for being an atheist is not being persuaded by the ‘evidenced’ or arguments put forward by the religious – that’s it, nothing more



posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 03:22 PM
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reply to post by sacgamer25
 


To me it looks like you are just trying to bully people into accepting your belief system

Do you think that’s ethical?



posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 03:39 PM
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Originally posted by sacgamer25
I guess it is now time to dust off my feet and walk away from your replies.


In fact, you may consider walking away from this thread. Anti-science and anti-atheist discussions are fine, though this is not the thread for it and frankly, you have displayed that you know little to nothing about either TOE or atheists. I'm afraid that you're not only out of your league but are preaching to people who have largely already rejected the bible's claims for obvious reasons. But I will ask you again if you have an opinion on the thread topic.



posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 03:58 PM
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Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by sacgamer25
I’m going to keep this short. I have read actually listened to on CD the entire bible.


I'll keep it short also. No matter how fervently you believe the bible it doesn't mean that the facts which contradict its claims are untrue. Keep in mind that if you remain consistent with your methodology you're going to be forced to claim that a number of other dozen scientific theories are false because they too refute claims in the bible.

For the third time, I am open to creationist hypothesis. You have to prove your case the same way everyone else does. 1. Produce the deity that does the creating. 2. Catch the deity in the act of creating that which you claim it creates. Until then, there's no reason for anyone to believe your claim, especially if it's just someone else's claim written in an old book.


Doesn't that apply to the TOE too? Produce the missing link. Did the evolution of ape to man happen only once? Wouldn't there still be apes that are in transition? Where are the apes that are still evolving?



posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 04:00 PM
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Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by sacgamer25
Show me this real history you talk about. Show me the evidence. I have provided you 27 books and letters and several other sorces that talk about the history I know to be true. How many references do you have?


It is an accumulation of information I've read in my 60+ years of searching for god. End result Atheism because of real information - - not myths.

I do not do detailed links anymore. At 65 I am raising a 3 year old boy and an 11 preteen girl. Priorities.

But - - there is a good thread right here on ATS: 'Book of Revelation’ : A ‘Fake Prophecy' Sewn Together from Scraps of 'Old" Testament Writings ? - www.abovetopsecret.com...

Sigismundus - - seems to be quite knowledgeable.



Well maybe you weren't searching hard enough or you really didn't want to find what you were seeking?



posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 04:04 PM
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Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by MarkJS
reply to post by Annee
 


You don't have to try to figure it out all by yourself.... You can ask Him about it. Did you?


Not interested.

I was raised Christian - - spent most of my life as a believer.

Been there - done that.
edit on 3-10-2011 by Annee because: (no reason given)


How is a person who was raised as a believer become a non-believer? Something had to make you change. I doubt that it was God or Jesus Christ that did it. I would guess it was another person who did, but God gets the blame. Just wondering.



posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 04:20 PM
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Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by zerimar65
As far as the honeydew thing, although there is no established proof that what the Bible says is true as far as when Jesus Christ returns, that's where faith comes in. If it is promised by God and Jesus Christ, it will happen and they will keep their word.


How do you know? As a believer, certain you have faith and you may believe such things because of it. But, what of non-believers? Why should they believe such a thing? How could you convince them that they should?


How do I know? I'm not sure if I can answer that to anybody's satisfaction. I would say faith AND trust. Same thing I would have with people. If a person promises me something, I can only go on their word and have faith in them and trust that they will do what they say. I don't know about non-believers. Do they have faith and trust in anything? The only reason I would say a non-believer should believe in such a thing is if they are concerned about their eternal salvation. If they can comprehend an existence beyond this one, although it is unknown, it is promised to be totally awesome. I really cannot convince anybody of anything. Especially a non-believer. All I would be able to do is share what I've been taught and what I have learned and my own experiences. I have no physical proof. Even though it might sound far fetched and fairy tale like, they've heard it. They have to make their own decisions.



posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 04:23 PM
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Originally posted by zerimar65

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by MarkJS
reply to post by Annee
 


You don't have to try to figure it out all by yourself.... You can ask Him about it. Did you?


Not interested.

I was raised Christian - - spent most of my life as a believer.

Been there - done that.


How is a person who was raised as a believer become a non-believer? Something had to make you change. I doubt that it was God or Jesus Christ that did it. I would guess it was another person who did, but God gets the blame. Just wondering.


Real information. Factual information.

NO - - no outside person influenced me.

I know - - real truth and the dissection of a myth - - can disturb some people.



posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 04:27 PM
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Originally posted by zerimar65

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by sacgamer25
Show me this real history you talk about. Show me the evidence. I have provided you 27 books and letters and several other sorces that talk about the history I know to be true. How many references do you have?


It is an accumulation of information I've read in my 60+ years of searching for god. End result Atheism because of real information - - not myths.

I do not do detailed links anymore. At 65 I am raising a 3 year old boy and an 11 preteen girl. Priorities.

But - - there is a good thread right here on ATS: 'Book of Revelation’ : A ‘Fake Prophecy' Sewn Together from Scraps of 'Old" Testament Writings ? - www.abovetopsecret.com...

Sigismundus - - seems to be quite knowledgeable.



Well maybe you weren't searching hard enough or you really didn't want to find what you were seeking?


Spoken like a believer - - that just can not accept - - there are those of intelligence who discovered via factual information - - the mythical bible Jesus is non-existent.



posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 04:44 PM
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Originally posted by zerimar65

Doesn't that apply to the TOE too? Produce the missing link. Did the evolution of ape to man happen only once? Wouldn't there still be apes that are in transition? Where are the apes that are still evolving?


The TOE doesn't predict a missing link although one is claimed to have been found.
The questions you're posing can easily be answered by familiarizing yourself with TOE. I can recommend you excellent sources if you desire.



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