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The Morality Of Saving People From Hell

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posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 12:36 PM
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Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by sacgamer25
That is precisely what makes the New Testament so amazing. All of the prophecy in the Old Testament was either fulfilled or was promised to be fulfilled in Revelations.


Uh, no. The first part of the book makes claims that the second part claims to fulfill. There's nothing amazing about that. Plus, so many of the bible's claims have been demonstrated to be incorrect that there is no reason to assume any of it to be true.


I have read and studied much about false claims against the bible. Lead me to the claims you speak of and I will be happy to refute them for you. The bible makes no false claims, only man makes false claims as God has no reason to lie about his creation.




posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 12:41 PM
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Originally posted by sacgamer25
I have read and studied much about false claims against the bible. Lead me to the claims you speak of and I will be happy to refute them for you. The bible makes no false claims, only man makes false claims as God has no reason to lie about his creation.


Well, being that you came into this thread attempting to refute TOE and basically offered nothing more than an assertion, I have a feeling that your refutations will display your fervency more so than a presentation of valid scientific alternatives.

Again, I have no reason to believe that there is any god, or that the universe is a creation of this god. An old book claiming such a thing is fine, but you will eventually need to produce this deity and show us all how it creates. Until you or someone else does that, I have no reason whatsoever to believe any of the bible's claims.


edit on 3-10-2011 by traditionaldrummer because: itchy



posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 12:48 PM
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reply to post by sacgamer25
 


You said 92% of Americans believe in God or some form of Deity, I am wondering how you think this is relevant after all even if 100% of Americans believe in god that only means there are a lot of Christians in America, it says nothing about there actually being a god

Here in Europe the situation is very different, the number of Europeans who believe is very much lower perhaps about 50% and most of those are only cultural christians

In the UK none belief is thought to as high as 70%-80% and there is a good chance the CofE will be gone by 2040

So there could be about the same number of none believers in Europe as there are believers in America, but that still says nothing about there actually being a god



posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 12:55 PM
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Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
Are those people in your life who try to convert you to save you from Hell moral and correct in their actions?

If one sincerely believes in Hell and cares about you enough to try to save you from it, they must be a moral and caring person acting in the right, otherwise to let you perish would make them an amoral sociopath.

However, the more someone tries to save you, the more of an undesirable creep they are perceived to be. Religious conversion is often unwanted.

Is the attempt to save others from Hell a moral action or is it an unethical action?


I don't think it's supposed to be a moral action, but it's not an unethical one. The thing about it is, it's their duty and responsibility to let people know about their salvation through Jesus Christ. If a person has some information that could save someone else's life, shouldn't they share it with as many people that they can? The only thing is, they don't seem to know how to do it without turning people off and/or offending them. People seem to think sharing the good news is about recruiting them into their religion or judging them. I find it odd that people today wouldn't know about God and Jesus Christ. But there are some people who apparently never heard about God or wasn't brought up that way and there are many who just completely reject Him.



posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 12:59 PM
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Why do believers always assume you haven't read or studied the bible - - because you don't believe it.

In debates between Atheists and Christians - - the Atheist usually wins.

Many Atheists - like myself - wanted to believe - to find god - - - and read everything there is. Until we realized its just myth - - and really makes zero sense.

Can you imagine if the bible was released as a novel - - - what critics would say?



posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 12:59 PM
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Originally posted by racasan
reply to post by sacgamer25
 


You said 92% of Americans believe in God or some form of Deity, I am wondering how you think this is relevant after all even if 100% of Americans believe in god that only means there are a lot of Christians in America, it says nothing about there actually being a god

Here in Europe the situation is very different, the number of Europeans who believe is very much lower perhaps about 50% and most of those are only cultural christians

In the UK none belief is thought to as high as 70%-80% and there is a good chance the CofE will be gone by 2040

So there could be about the same number of none believers in Europe as there are believers in America, but that still says nothing about there actually being a god


Your comment is slightly misleading. 79% believe in some sort of higher power. It appears that about 15% in the region who talk of don’t believe in any higher power.

en.wikipedia.org...



posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 01:05 PM
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Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
I view it as unethical even though the person doing it is acting in a good-hearted manner.

If I find an ancient book from Greece that claims that eating huge amounts of honeydew will cure a particular type of cancer, I may be extremely eager to share this good news with a loved one afflicted with that cancer. I'd earnestly be trying to save a loved one but there's one problem: the claim has not been established as true. Eating honeydew instead of seeking treatment may hasten death.

Proliferating unestablished "truths" derived from ancient literature in this case would actually be harmful. It may also be harmful to inflict a fear of Hell into someone in order to "save" them from it, especially since all claims about Hell remain unestablished. Not only could this generate psychological issues but rob someone of a life they'd otherwise lead instead of adhering to ancient doctrine.

My 2 cents
edit on 30-9-2011 by traditionaldrummer because: (no reason given)


People shouldn't be using hell to scare somebody into believing in Jesus Christ. They should only be sharing the fact that God loves them and cares about them. As far as the honeydew thing, although there is no established proof that what the Bible says is true as far as when Jesus Christ returns, that's where faith comes in. If it is promised by God and Jesus Christ, it will happen and they will keep their word.



posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 01:05 PM
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Originally posted by sacgamer25
Your comment is slightly misleading. 79% believe in some sort of higher power. It appears that about 15% in the region who talk of don’t believe in any higher power.

en.wikipedia.org...


The argument from popularity is a logical fallacy. It doesn't matter if 100% of people believe in god. The truth of anything is not determined by consensus.

If you claim there's a god give us demonstrable evidence of it. It you claim the god created things, identify the process so it can be tested. Otherwise you're simply demanding someone believe in a book that has no reason to be believed by anyone.



posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 01:08 PM
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Originally posted by zerimar65
As far as the honeydew thing, although there is no established proof that what the Bible says is true as far as when Jesus Christ returns, that's where faith comes in. If it is promised by God and Jesus Christ, it will happen and they will keep their word.


How do you know? As a believer, certain you have faith and you may believe such things because of it. But, what of non-believers? Why should they believe such a thing? How could you convince them that they should?



posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 01:12 PM
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Originally posted by Annee
Why do believers always assume you haven't read or studied the bible - - because you don't believe it.

In debates between Atheists and Christians - - the Atheist usually wins.

Many Atheists - like myself - wanted to believe - to find god - - - and read everything there is. Until we realized its just myth - - and really makes zero sense.

Can you imagine if the bible was released as a novel - - - what critics would say?



Here is a link for you that shows only 25% of people have said they read the whole bible. Going to church and studying the top 100 bible verses is not enough. This is why I make my assumption. The survey actually has some pretty funny statistics as well. Since most Christians have not read the bible, and even less have a true understanding of science it is obvious that they will lose the debate. Most Christians debate purely on faith so it would be difficult for them to win a debate. I would consider myself above average in knowledge of TOE but only average in other sciences. So I myself could lose a debate in certain fields of science.

Amazing how many people will read the Oprahs Book of the Month but won’t read a book that so many claim to have changed their lives. It's the greatest self help book ever written and the only one with an answer that actually works. You can choose to call the bible fact or fiction but the fact remains that the bible change lives every day.


askville.amazon.com...
edit on 3-10-2011 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)

edit on 3-10-2011 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 01:23 PM
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Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by sacgamer25
Your comment is slightly misleading. 79% believe in some sort of higher power. It appears that about 15% in the region who talk of don’t believe in any higher power.

en.wikipedia.org...


If you claim there's a god give us demonstrable evidence of it. It you claim the god created things, identify the process so it can be tested. Otherwise you're simply demanding someone believe in a book that has no reason to be believed by anyone.


Now that is funny. Identify Gods process, well if I could do that than I guess that would make me God.


I have provided solid logical evidence to the authenticity of Christ and the Bible. You choose not to accept that evidence. The evidence is all I have but then again evidence is all you have for TOE. You cannot duplicate the process that makes an organism any more complex than it was before. You can only prove adaptation. Your theory cannot explain the why for genders, live birth or the egg. Only a farfetched convoluted how. But TOE is based on the premise of adaptation, I can think of no adaptation necessary for genders. It actually goes against the fundamental science behind the TOE.
edit on 3-10-2011 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)

edit on 3-10-2011 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 01:31 PM
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Originally posted by sacgamer25

I have provided solid logical evidence to the authenticity of Christ and the Bible. You choose not to accept that evidence.


Correct, because your evidence doesn't meet any reasonable or rational standard. It simply amounts to the fact that since you believe it, others should also. It has forced you into at least one delusion: that our finest scientific theory devised is untrue - simply for the reason that it refutes a claim in a book you admire.

I think this will make it the sixth request. Produce the deity you claim exists. I don't care what your book says. Demonstrate that a deity exists, not just assert it.



posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 01:31 PM
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reply to post by sacgamer25
 


Well to be fair I was trying to get you to think about what the percentage of population believes in god has to do with if there is a god or not - traditionaldrummer has pointed out it’s a logical fallacy called argument from popularity

However
missiodeiscandia.wordpress.com...
or
www.gallup.com...

and even then the situation is not clear given that most of those who responded favourable to religion are old – young people are just not getting into religion



posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 02:03 PM
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Originally posted by racasan
reply to post by sacgamer25
 


Well to be fair I was trying to get you to think about what the percentage of population believes in god has to do with if there is a god or not - traditionaldrummer has pointed out it’s a logical fallacy called argument from popularity

However
missiodeiscandia.wordpress.com...
or
www.gallup.com...

and even then the situation is not clear given that most of those who responded favourable to religion are old – young people are just not getting into religion


I know, it would be nice if the atheist and anti-Christian agenda wasn't taught in our schools and forced into our kid’s heads through the media. The following verses are in revalation and I believe relate to todays problems.
Many of you will call it Gibberish but I am happy that God gave me this prophesy so I can teach my children that these things must happen.

Revelations
3:15 "I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were cold or hot.
3:16 So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will vomit you out of my mouth.
3:17 Because you say, 'I am rich, and have gotten riches, and have need of nothing;' and don't know that you are the wretched one, miserable, poor, blind, and naked;
3:18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, that you may become rich; and white garments, that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes, that you may see.
3:19 As many as I love, I reprove and chasten. Be zealous therefore, and repent.
3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, then I will come in to him, and will dine with him, and he with me.
3:21 He who overcomes, I will give to him to sit down with me on my throne, as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father on his throne.
3:22 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies."

I believe Christian churches and Christian leaders have become so luke-warm that they do not inspire the youth to believe. Many churches are teaching false doctrines, perverting Gods word. Unfortunately I believe most churches no longer worships God but instead they worship money.

Mathew 6:24
"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.

I am not into doomsday and I care little when the end will come but what I see in the world today is hard to ignore.



posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 02:13 PM
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Originally posted by sacgamer25
I am not into doomsday and I care little when the end will come but what I see in the world today is hard to ignore.


I would contend based upon your posts that you find it very easy to ignore much of the world. I see very little concern emanating beyond what appears to be a religiously polluted microcosm.

Are you able to rise to the challenge I have repeatedly reiterated? I believe I speak for most of us when I say that verse-bombing the thread is not only tiring but futile. Give us your own words or any reason we should believe the bible; preaching neither helps your case nor stimulates productive discussion



posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 02:13 PM
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You seem determined to not responded about your argument from popularity or that people might consider it a veiled threat



Originally posted by sacgamer25

I know, it would be nice if the atheist and anti-Christian agenda wasn't taught in our schools and forced into our kid’s heads through the media. T



Could you give an example of this?



posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 02:21 PM
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Originally posted by racasan


Originally posted by sacgamer25

I know, it would be nice if the atheist and anti-Christian agenda wasn't taught in our schools and forced into our kid’s heads through the media. T



Could you give an example of this?


He has already previously stated that the theory of evolution was an atheist belief forced upon children. I have yet to see him post anything that does not amount to incorrect religious rhetoric.



posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 02:21 PM
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Originally posted by sacgamer25

Originally posted by Annee
Why do believers always assume you haven't read or studied the bible - - because you don't believe it.

In debates between Atheists and Christians - - the Atheist usually wins.

Many Atheists - like myself - wanted to believe - to find god - - - and read everything there is. Until we realized its just myth - - and really makes zero sense.

Can you imagine if the bible was released as a novel - - - what critics would say?



Here is a link for you that shows only 25% of people have said they read the whole bible.


I've read the entire bible more then once and attended bible study.

You're assumptions that lack of information or knowledge of the bible - - - is the reason I think its nonsense - - - is ignorant and ridiculous.



posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 02:26 PM
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Originally posted by sacgamer25
Since most Christians have not read the bible, and even less have a true understanding of science it is obvious that they will lose the debate. Most Christians debate purely on faith so it would be difficult for them to win a debate. I would consider myself above average in knowledge of TOE but only average in other sciences. So I myself could lose a debate in certain fields of science.


Oh this paragraph bears repeating to stand alone.

WHAT?????????

Where did I mention anything about science?



posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 02:30 PM
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Originally posted by racasan
. . . and even then the situation is not clear given that most of those who responded favourable to religion are old – young people are just not getting into religion


Or they respond "Yeah! Sure - whatever"

And the poll agenda is to count god believers - - so the pollster marks the response as: Yes!




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