It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

The Morality Of Saving People From Hell

page: 14
11
<< 11  12  13    15  16  17 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Oct, 2 2011 @ 11:32 PM
link   

Originally posted by autowrench

I always ask the religious person trying to save me, which God are you talking about?


God exists. You cannot doubt His existence, and that is one essential point. Do not seek to go beyond it; do not lose yourselves in a labyrinth which, for you, is without an issue. Such inquiries would not make you better; they would rather tend to add to your pride, by causing you to imagine that you knew something, while, in reality, you would know nothing. Put aside systems. You have things enough to think about that concern you much more nearly, beginning with yourselves. Study your own imperfections, that you may get rid of them; this will be far more useful to you than the vain attempt to penetrate the impenetrable.


The Bible? It is unwise to insist upon a literal interpretation of figurative statements of which the inaccuracy may, at any moment, be rendered evident by the progress of scientific discovery; but the fundamental propositions of religion, so far from having anything to fear from the discoveries of science, are strengthened and ennobled by being brought into harmony with those discoveries. And it is only when the religious sentiment shall have been enlightened by its union with scientific truth that religious belief, thus rendered invulnerable to the attacks of skepticism, will take the place of skepticism in the minds and hearts of men.




posted on Oct, 2 2011 @ 11:38 PM
link   

Originally posted by Shadow Herder

Originally posted by autowrench

I always ask the religious person trying to save me, which God are you talking about?


God exists. You cannot doubt His existence, and that is one essential point.


Yes. I can.

And yes I do.



posted on Oct, 2 2011 @ 11:44 PM
link   
reply to post by Shadow Herder
 





God exists. You cannot doubt His existence, and that is one essential point.


?? So we can not doubt that some master creator was always there..existing before existence?

As someone who has always understood, that history usually has a history .. which is what religion teaches in essence...the history and origins of life..from creation to the end of time..do you never wonder of the history of God?

How can we be so sure that a "deity or deities" have always "just been there". While God may well be a reality..does God not ever wonder at his own history?..question how his existence came to be?




edit on 3-10-2011 by gabby2011 because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 12:09 AM
link   

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by sacgamer25
This is more written history than we have of any other single event from this time period.


It is not history - - it is hearsay. It proves nothing.

There is actual history of the time of mystical bible Jesus. He is not mentioned.

The real history does talk about a Jesus. But the real history is a far cry from the mystical Jesus.

Kind of reminds me of some of our mythical old west heroes.



Show me this real history you talk about. Show me the evidence. I have provided you 27 books and letters and several other sorces that talk about the history I know to be true. How many references do you have?



posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 12:12 AM
link   
reply to post by sacgamer25
 


Evolution does not only encompass an organism becoming a more complex or intelligent life form. Evolution also encompasses the variations in the traits of some organisms that allow them to survive in their environment, and to continue to thrive and multiply passing on those variants to their offspring.

Science Dictionary


evolution (ěv'ə-l 'shən) Pronunciation Key The process by which species of organisms arise from earlier life forms and undergo change over time through natural selection . The modern understanding of the origins of species is based on the theories of Charles Darwin combined with a modern knowledge of genetics based on the work of Gregor Mendel. Darwin observed there is a certain amount of variation of traits or characteristics among the different individuals belonging to a population. Some of these traits confer fitness—they allow the individual organism that possesses them to survive in their environment better than other individuals who do not possess them and to leave more offspring. The offspring then inherit the beneficial traits, and over time the adaptive trait spreads through the population. In twentieth century, the development of the the science of genetics helped explain the origin of the variation of the traits between individual organisms and the way in which they are passed from generation to generation. This basic model of evolution has since been further refined, and the role of genetic drift and sexual selection in the evolution of populations has been recognized. See also natural selection, sexual selection. See Notes at adaptation, Darwin.


Years ago one of my teachers mentioned an example of current evolution in people, he stated that as a species we no longer need or use our appendix, it basically performed the same job as a gizzard does in a chicken, it ground hard grains which few people subsist on anymore, it was now in fact causing more harm than good, and over time the incidences of people born without them has increased. He went on to state the same about our wisdom teeth which I'm sure most people know are more trouble than they are worth being too far back to brush properly, becoming impacted etc. At the time I didn't put a whole lot of thought into the subject..I was a freshman in HS so it wasn't an immediate concern. When I became an adult it was found on my dental x-rays that I was one of those who were born without them. I can't complain I'm either a mutant or a victim of evolution


While dealing with the origins of man, I can see how evolution can be an issue for those who's faith teaches them creationism. But beyond that point who is to say that the creator did not plan for us to evolve as time goes on just like babies grow up and become more intelligent, more aware and more capable of caring for themselves.

As for teaching TOE vs Creationism in school it was brought up earlier that teaching secular beliefs might contradict the beliefs of those of faith. That is why private schools came about, public schools were never meant to teach biblical doctrine or any other form of religion.

Thomas Jefferson on the Elementry Schools Act


Ministers of the Gospel are excluded [from serving as Visitors of the county Elementary Schools] to avoid jealousy from the other sects, were the public education committed to the ministers of a particular one; and with more reason than in the case of their exclusion from the legislative and executive functions." --Thomas Jefferson: Note to Elementary School Act, 1817. ME 17:419

"No religious reading, instruction or exercise, shall be prescribed or practiced [in the elementary schools] inconsistent with the tenets of any religious sect or denomination." --Thomas Jefferson: Elementary School Act, 1817. ME 17:425

"After stating the constitutional reasons against a public establishment of any religious instruction, we suggest the expediency of encouraging the different religious sects to establish, each for itself, a professorship of their own tenets on the confines of the university, so near as that their students may attend the lectures there and have the free use of our library and every other accommodation we can give them; preserving, however, their independence of us and of each other. This fills the chasm objected to ours, as a defect in an institution professing to give instruction in all useful sciences... And by bringing the sects together, and mixing them with the mass of other students, we shall soften their asperities, liberalize and neutralize their prejudices, and make the general religion a religion of peace, reason, and morality." --Thomas Jefferson to Thomas Cooper, 1822. ME 15:405



posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 12:18 AM
link   

Originally posted by autowrench

Originally posted by DarthMuerte
reply to post by DarkKnight76
 
Agreed. If you are introduced to God by the person and you reject God, that person should move on to others who might possibly be saved. If God really wants the person who has rejected him, he will find another way. God has given us free will to decide for ourselves. Choose with him or against but recognize the consequences of your decision.


I always ask the religious person trying to save me, which God are you talking about? Well, they often say, there is only one God. But then I have to tell them of the 18 Gods and Two Goddesses in the Bible they are usually holding, and they never believe me, because they have not read the book, only certain chapters.
Then I ask, "what are you saving me from?" Hell, they say, to which I reply, friend, you are standing in Hell Central right now, I work in retail.
Then I attempt to educate them on what the Bible was based on Sumerian and Babylonian stories, and the whole New Testament was written by Romans, not "disciples."
Then I ask if they have researched their Bible and it's origins, and also the origins of Christianity.
Then I go into the Crimes of the Church, and the innocent blood on their hands. Then I simply say that I am not interested in joining their cult.
By this time they are usually headed for the car, fast.

They just hate trying to convert someone who knows the Bible better than they do, and can talk circles around them on every subject matter they bring up. Sadly, for me anyway, they stopped coming to my house. Dammit! I like messing with their heads!


I agree that most of the people you talk with do not know the bible well enough to save anyone, maybe not even themselves. That does not include me and the only thing you mention that is irrefutable is the crimes of the church after Jesus death. These people I imagine also did not have enough knowledge to save anyone. Religion may be a cult but the bible certainly does not teach this. If anyone really wants to save themselves there is one way god tells. Sell all that you have and preach the gospel.



posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 12:18 AM
link   
reply to post by sacgamer25
 


Jesus lived....Jesus died on a cross at the hands of pontius, a Jewish leader under roman rule. It is history...it happened. Jesus was the leader of a new sect of Judaism that was unnamed at the time as far we know. The whole idea of jesus being god...sorry man but there's no way anyone can prove that. It is impossible and if it was proven we would all be Christians. I understand you are zealous in your beliefs but you can not come onto a site like this and be taken seriously. You and others like you talk out of your behinds. All it does it hurt you. Say you have faith...don't tell us god is fact.



posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 12:25 AM
link   
reply to post by gabby2011
 


Can it be said that God is infinity?

An incomplete definition. Poverty of human speech incompetent to define what transcends human intelligence.

God is infinite in His perfections, but "infinity" is an abstraction. To say that God is infinity is to substitute the attribute of a thing for the thing itself, and to define something unknown by reference to some other thing equally unknown.

Yes, judging from your point of view, because you think that you sum up everything in those terms; but you must understand that there are things which transcend the intelligence of the most intelligent man, and for which your language, limited to your ideas and sensations, has no expressions. Your reason tells you that God must possess those perfections in the supreme degree; for, if one of them were lacking, or were not possessed by Him in an infinite degree, He would riot be superior to all, and consequently would not be God. In order to be above all things, God must undergo no vicissitudes, He must have none of the imperfections of which the imagination can conceive."

God is eternal. If He had had a beginning, He must either have sprung from nothing, or have been created by some being anterior to Himself. It is thus that, step by step, we arrive at the idea of infinity and eternity.
God is unchangeable. If He were subject to change, the laws which rule the universe would have no stability.

God is immaterial, that is to say, that His nature differs from everything that we call matter, or otherwise. He would not be unchangeable, for He would be subject to the transformations of matter.

God is unique. If there were several Gods, there would be neither unity of plan nor unity of power in the ordaining of the universe.

God is all-powerful because He is unique. If He did not possess sovereign power, there would be something more powerful, or no less powerful, than Himself. He would not have created all things and those which He had not created would be the work of another God.

God is sovereignty just and good. The providential wisdom of the divine laws is revealed as clearly in the smallest things as in the greatest and this wisdom renders it impossible to doubt either His justice or His goodness.


More info



posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 12:27 AM
link   
Darkhorse76...maybe I'm wrong but Im quite sure that the earliest texts we've discovered of the new testament scriptures were written by Greeks...not Romans. Just wanted to jab that in there since you were speaking so strongly about knowing the bible.



posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 12:34 AM
link   
reply to post by Shadow Herder
 


All that crap would make a bunch of scientific sense if you applied it to something measurable by science ( I.e reality ). Instead you took a lot of time and a bunch of smart language and big words most of these people will not understand in the slightest to explain something that is in no way provable. Applying so much logic to something rather illogical. I don't know...seems that head of yours could be put to better use.



posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 12:37 AM
link   
What do you need a beaker of God or some calculation that proves God??.... Silly. The answer is 42.

Wow, like an ant trying to learn quantum physics.


Do not seek to go beyond it; do not lose yourselves in a labyrinth which, for you, is without an issue. Such inquiries would not make you better; they would rather tend to add to your pride, by causing you to imagine that you knew something, while, in reality, you would know nothing. Put aside systems. You have things enough to think about that concern you much more nearly, beginning with yourselves. Study your own imperfections, that you may get rid of them; this will be far more useful to you than the vain attempt to penetrate the impenetrable.


Words to live by friend.



edit on 3-10-2011 by Shadow Herder because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 01:02 AM
link   
reply to post by Shadow Herder
 


God is a crutch for the weak minded. A cop out. A hinderance. And most often a tool of division. In the end logic and science will most likely discover "god". Your arrogant esoteric logic ( for lack of a better description ) is annoying and aimless. Why not just say I have faith in this...why all the babble? Does that help you feel like it makes more sense?



posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 01:05 AM
link   
reply to post by Shadow Herder
 


And you are contradicting yourself anyhow....spent all that time explaining it in the first post I commented on n then quoted some text about how you shouldnt bother trying to explain it or asking questions that do not concern you. If you are that secure and aloof then why would you be here in this discussion?



posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 01:10 AM
link   
reply to post by Shadow Herder
 


It's called pride. You get off using words like Vicissitudes and sounding so rational and smart. Whether you are Jew christian or Muslim that is a sin. Not to me...I can dig it. Lol. But if you are steadfast as you like to sound....you need to look inward. Realign your thought processes.



posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 01:18 AM
link   
Concerning OP...ethics has become a very complex study in the past century or so I'd say. But what it boils down to is right and wrong. Trying to convert me might in your eyes make you the essence of ethics. To me you are disrespectful annoying and arrogant. It's all perception. This is America though. Freedom of religion and all that, right? In our society I would have to call it unethical. Definitely.



posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 01:20 AM
link   

Originally posted by Shadow Herder

Originally posted by autowrench

I always ask the religious person trying to save me, which God are you talking about?


God exists. You cannot doubt His existence, and that is one essential point. Do not seek to go beyond it; do not lose yourselves in a labyrinth which, for you, is without an issue. Such inquiries would not make you better; they would rather tend to add to your pride, by causing you to imagine that you knew something, while, in reality, you would know nothing. Put aside systems. You have things enough to think about that concern you much more nearly, beginning with yourselves. Study your own imperfections, that you may get rid of them; this will be far more useful to you than the vain attempt to penetrate the impenetrable.


The Bible? It is unwise to insist upon a literal interpretation of figurative statements of which the inaccuracy may, at any moment, be rendered evident by the progress of scientific discovery; but the fundamental propositions of religion, so far from having anything to fear from the discoveries of science, are strengthened and ennobled by being brought into harmony with those discoveries. And it is only when the religious sentiment shall have been enlightened by its union with scientific truth that religious belief, thus rendered invulnerable to the attacks of skepticism, will take the place of skepticism in the minds and hearts of men.


This dude makes a lot of sense.




posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 01:28 AM
link   
reply to post by Shadow Herder
 


Where virtue may be considered power restrained, God is the height of virtue.

Our reality, as a manifestation of the Absolute, is the farthest reaching expression of God's own restraint, as an intelligent subtraction from the Absolute, or a limitation, to allow for a multifacted freedom of expression, including, at last, the freedom to love.

So that which is inscrutible and unfathomable, is readily and immediately available to us, intimately, that's the stange paradox of it all, how close God is, for something so beyond our imagination and capacity for reason, that we are brought to silence, and a type of knowing which is the knowing, not of reason, but of experience, and so we become like Carl Jung, who, when asked if he believed in God, replied (with a puff on his pipe) "To ask me if I believe in God implies the possibility for disbelief, and so I would have to say therefore, no, I do not believe in God. I know there is a God."

When pressed why, or to show evidence, we ought to simply laugh out loud in deep resonant tones, and say nothing.


edit on 3-10-2011 by NewAgeMan because: God is beyond reason, but is not without reason, being unreasonably reasonable.



posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 01:57 AM
link   

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
Are those people in your life who try to convert you to save you from Hell moral and correct in their actions?


I know people from many different religions. Would it not be annoying if each of them tried to convert me and made it their own personal crusade to do so? Perhaps to save me I need to join their specific religion and accept their God as the true God. Each time I agree to make one person happy another is deeply upset and they band together to say that I'll burn in a hell. It would be pretty crazy wouldn't it? Let's say that one of my friends is satanic and in his mind I need to sacrafice puppies to avoid burning. In other words no these people are not correct in their actions. There is nothing wrong with them making information available but they shouldn't shove it on me. I should be able to make my own decisions and it shouldn't bother them.



posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 02:05 AM
link   
reply to post by NewAgeMan
 

You talk a lot to say a little. even works on a lot of people. See the guy who gave you a big thumbs up on how much sense you make. Your a babbler. And for such a religious guy I find odd for you to quote Jung. Granted he thought we were religious by our very nature which goes along with your analogies...but wasn't he a sexual deviant? And an adulterous one at that? Either way quoting him gives zero credence to what you say other than to suggest we are religious by nature. I'm more Freudian in my analogies I must admit. Jung had a theory. You mention him as if his theories were proven.



posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 02:09 AM
link   
Sorry thought i was commenting to shadow herder. But same goes for you new age man.



new topics

top topics



 
11
<< 11  12  13    15  16  17 >>

log in

join