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The Morality Of Saving People From Hell

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posted on Oct, 2 2011 @ 05:00 PM
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Originally posted by racasan
What about those Christians that try to have creationism taught as a science in schools, I understand that there are even some who would like nothing better than for TOE to be removed from the curriculum – this is forcing a belief on people

And parents that raise their children in a faith – and that’s certainly forcing a belief on people





To racasan: There is a difference between teaching creationism vs TOE in public schools. Creationism is dependent on religious belief or faith, for the public schools to teach this the subject would inherently involve the indoctrination of the students to specific religious group, in effect putting that belief system above all others, and as the public schools have been deemed to be an entity of the State this is prohibited under the first amendment to the Constitution of the US.

TOE on the other hand does not involve teaching that would elevate one religious belief system above any or all others as TOE is based on scientific studies, theories at times and determinations. While TOE is not something that is definitively laid out at this time or orderly there are some areas where Evolution can and has been proven. Creationism cannot be proven, because it is based on faith and until we die, no matter how devoutly faithful one is to their religious beliefs, there is currently no way for anyone to physically prove that their belief system is the ONE true path or belief system. That's why it's referred to as faith.


Originally posted by sacgamer25
When exactly did bacteria decide that simply spitting was not good enough? None of these process can be explained by evolution but you think TOE should remain in school.

Look at the egg in general. Where did the first egg come from?


To sacgamer25:
Bacteria and Virii are actually 2 areas where evolution can be shown. Some bacteria have evolved into what are called extremephiles, they have evolved to adapt to their environments to extremes in temperature that we would normally consider uninhabitable, they have evolved to survive in highly toxic environments, and on a more personal level they have evolved to resist medications that we were once able to depend upon to kill them such as MSRA and Tuberculosis. As for virii, one need only look to HIV/AIDS and see how it has evolved fairly rapidly to resist drugs that are found to combat it.

And finally your egg question. If you are referring to the old which came first the chicken or the egg mystery. Recent genetic evidence indicates that our average domestic chickens were a hybrid of red and grey jungle fowl. Which would put the egg as coming before the chicken.




posted on Oct, 2 2011 @ 05:26 PM
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Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by CynicalDrivel
I've had your Crisis of faith, about 5 years ago, as well. The big difference is that I stuck with Christianity, while you did not. I see flaws pretty much all the way down to the foundations of the faith.


What crises? There was no crises.

I read and searched for many years. There is NOTHING that substantiates the mythical Christ story.

I understand the energy cohesion in a congregation - - which is even more powerful if all of our of same thought.

It is like a drug.

Once one steps completely out of the "god circle" - - the drug wears off. Reality and logic glow like a beacon of clarity.

Definitely no crises.
It's not that it IS crisis. It's what it's called.
It has to do with coming up against something that doesn't fit into your presumptions, and having to honestly look at it and doubt what you assumed. It can be so gentle, that no one ever notices the change or it can be cataclysmic enough to shatter homes. For most people it is emotional. My break with the faith was very emotional, while my decision to stay and submit was rational and calm.

And I can throw the words right back at you:

I read and searched for many years. There is EVERYTHING that substantiates the mythical Christ story.

I understand the enjoyment of thinking I'm reasoning soundly, even when I'm not, and being against a congregation's energy and cohesion - - which is even more powerful if it feels like I'm up against the world.

It is like a drug.

Once one steps completely into the "god circle" - - the drug wears off. Reality and logic still glows like a beacon of clarity.

See, a lot of people change beliefs in their lifetime. Some of them are life-changing, some are minor, but it is few and far the person who remains the same for even a few years at a time. That's life.



posted on Oct, 2 2011 @ 06:02 PM
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Originally posted by CynicalDrivel
It's not that it IS crisis. It's what it's called.


NO. Crises is very explicit. You don't get a pass on that


It has to do with coming up against something that doesn't fit into your presumptions, . . .


I had no presumptions.


and having to honestly look at it and doubt what you assumed.


I did not doubt - nor assume.


It can be so gentle, that no one ever notices the change or it can be cataclysmic enough to shatter homes. For most people it is emotional. My break with the faith was very emotional, while my decision to stay and submit was rational and calm.

And I can throw the words right back at you


Apparently not. Describing your own experience - - has nothing to do with me.


There is EVERYTHING that substantiates the mythical Christ story.


Please provide.


edit on 2-10-2011 by Annee because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 2 2011 @ 06:04 PM
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reply to post by traditionaldrummer
 


It's a moral action in there eyes, but it is truly an unethical approach.

I've accumulated my own believes on alternate sources. I read more into new age and life between lives, but this guy I know kept calling me up to go to a church. Once you go to a church they have you fill out where you live. So, if you you don't go back, they will come to your door and ask if you've been saved. I said no, in which lead to me being saved. That's okay, I don't believe in that anyway, so it wont bother me. It made them leave me alone, because they thought they were doing something moral.

As you can see, this is truly unethical approach. Hounding someone to get saved. I say no to any salesmen now with no hesitation, along with groups or any organizations. So something good came out of it after all...


edit on 2-10-2011 by SuperJagoff because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 2 2011 @ 06:09 PM
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Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
Even if Christianity actually endured real persecution in America (which it never has) it would still flourish as long as they get to keep the tax-free status.
Didn't state that America ever had REAL persecution of Christianity altogether. I was going to stay off that tetchy subject, but since you brought that up:

Anti-Catholicism was widespread in the 1920s; anti-Catholics, including the Ku Klux Klan, believed that Catholicism was incompatible with democracy and that parochial schools encouraged separatism and kept Catholics from becoming loyal Americans. The Catholics responded to such prejudices by repeatedly asserting their rights as American citizens and by arguing that they, not the nativists (anti-Catholics), were true patriots since they believed in the right to freedom of religion.[23]

With the resurrection of the Ku Klux Klan (KKK) in 1915, anti-Catholic rhetoric intensified. The Catholic Church of the Little Flower was first built in 1925 in Royal Oak, Michigan, a largely Protestant area. Two weeks after it opened, the Ku Klux Klan burned a cross in front of the church.[24]

On August 11, 1921, Father James Coyle was fatally shot while sitting on his rectory porch in Birmingham, Alabama. Several witnesses identified the shooter as Rev. E. R. Stephenson, a Southern Methodist Episcopal minister and a member of the Ku Klux Klan. There were many witnesses.[25] The murder occurred just hours after Coyle had performed a wedding mass between Stephenson's daughter, Ruth, and Pedro Gussman, a Puerto Rican immigrant whom she had met while he was working on Stephenson's house five years earlier. Gussman had also been a customer of Stephenson's barber shop. Several months before the wedding, Ruth had enraged her father by converting to Roman Catholicism.
Read more on Wiki, or some documentary--this is by far not the only information on violence in this country due to your faith. But the reason it was done was because they feared the Catholic faith would interfere with the ability to vote democratically--which is the same complaint I hear about Christians as a whole, to this day. But out an out persecution has happened to various Christians, in the USA. It's just very rare here, and I mean very. The most that really happens now is discrimination, and there's all sorts who do this, Christian or not.


See, the tax-free thing isn't in place for a lot of churches, and it comes with restrictions:

The Restriction of Political Campaign Intervention by Section 501(c)(3) Tax-Exempt Organizations

Under the Internal Revenue Code, all section 501(c)(3) organizations are absolutely prohibited from directly or indirectly participating in, or intervening in, any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for elective public office. Contributions to political campaign funds or public statements of position (verbal or written) made on behalf of the organization in favor of or in opposition to any candidate for public office clearly violate the prohibition against political campaign activity. Violating this prohibition may result in denial or revocation of tax-exempt status and the imposition of certain excise taxes.

Certain activities or expenditures may not be prohibited depending on the facts and circumstances. For example, certain voter education activities (including presenting public forums and publishing voter education guides) conducted in a non-partisan manner do not constitute prohibited political campaign activity. In addition, other activities intended to encourage people to participate in the electoral process, such as voter registration and get-out-the-vote drives, would not be prohibited political campaign activity if conducted in a non-partisan manner.
By the time of Bill Clinton's 2nd election, it was fairly well known that he was for Partial Birth Abortion. If your congregation was a non-profit organisation, then you couldn't say or write the phrase "You ought not to vote for Bill Clinton because he is for Partial Birth Abortion," without risking lawsuit.

Various Church's reasoning behind not incorporating or filing for tax exemption. Yes religious points will be made, but they're not arguing to you, but to other believers.

Now the small congregation I'm a member of, their incorporation papers, and tax exemption stuff was set up long before the present day members were associated there. So we're stuck with having to undo a lot of things.

And honestly, there are other "belief-systems" or lack thereof, that meet under the name "Church" or charity for the same purpose. Besides, if all out persecution starts, what "unethical laws" do you think are going first?



posted on Oct, 2 2011 @ 06:16 PM
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Originally posted by SuperJagoff
Once you go to a church they have you fill out where you live. So, if you you don't go back, they will come to your door and ask if you've been saved.


That sounds more like an institution looking for financial backing rather than an honest, caring friend trying to keep you from what they perceive as harm. Churches can behave insidiously. Friends or loved ones (I believe) most of the time do it out of genuine concern for you. I think it's annoying in both cases but that's only my opinion.



posted on Oct, 2 2011 @ 06:23 PM
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Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Frira

Atheists organizations, like Christian organizations, use power to influence where they believe it is needed.

So, count yourself into the group of those who have become the very thing they hate.


Atheism is not a belief. It is lack of a belief in a deity. That is all it is. Government must be free of all and any religious dogma. What one does personally is up to them.

American Atheists Aims and Principles

American Atheists, Inc. is a nonprofit, nonpolitical, educational organization dedicated to the complete and absolute separation of state and church, accepting the explanation of Thomas Jefferson that the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States was meant to create a "wall of separation" between state and church.

2nd verse, same as the 1st:

Just because you're an Atheist who has a lack of belief in a God, doesn't mean that atheists as a whole define themselves this way.

In fact, it's only one option for definition:

Atheism:
1 archaic : ungodliness, wickedness
2 a : a disbelief in the existence of deity
b : the doctrine that there is no deity
When you step from disbelief to teaching that there is no deity, you're teaching a belief system.



posted on Oct, 2 2011 @ 06:28 PM
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Originally posted by CynicalDrivel

Just because you're an Atheist who has a lack of belief in a God, doesn't mean that atheists as a whole define themselves this way


Atheist means lack of belief in a deity. That is all it means.

I am not going to go into archaic descriptions that no longer matter.




edit on 2-10-2011 by Annee because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 2 2011 @ 06:32 PM
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Originally posted by CynicalDrivel
See, the tax-free thing isn't in place for a lot of churches, and it comes with restrictions:
The Restriction of Political Campaign Intervention by Section 501(c)(3) Tax-Exempt Organizations


This is exactly as it should be and I'm delighted by this principle. Surely you're not claiming this as a form of persecution.
edit on 2-10-2011 by traditionaldrummer because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 2 2011 @ 06:52 PM
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Originally posted by celticdog
What is hell? Is it a place where you burn for eternity(impossible) or just a hole in the ground. One place is made up and one place is reality. One place is a figment of the imagination and one place you can touch. So trying to sell someone the fairy tale thinking in your mind it is saving them is commendable, but what worth is it.Purgatory a place the catholic church made up to get money from people thinking they are saving their dead relatives from hell.The translation from the hebrew meant grave. No where does it say pitch forks and the devil tormenting you.
The traditions come mostly from Dante's Inferno, which is derived more from the Roman and Greek culture, if I remember correctly. All 13 verses mentioning Hell. It is called fiery Hell. It could be a darker version of Sheol, which is just the waiting place after death, waiting for judgement: ATS Bible Dictionary on Hell (NOT this ATS, mind you). Looking at the Greek in the last of the 13, the Aorist tense tense is used not just for the throwing into hell, but for pretty much every verb in the verse. Aorist tense is the closest verb form to what God is. (Literally, it's action always now, whether 20 year in the future or at the begining of time, the verb is still happening now.) Either Hell is an "imperfect eternal" (always was but will end, or has a start, but never will end, or even has a beginning and end, but happens over the entirety of time's existence) or the act of casting into Hell is an always now practice...other than calling it fiery, there's little else to go on.



posted on Oct, 2 2011 @ 06:57 PM
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reply to post by traditionaldrummer
 


I think that's a good opinion, the churches can behave insidious. I think that's why a lot of people are deterred away from them.



posted on Oct, 2 2011 @ 07:00 PM
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Originally posted by CynicalDrivel
...other than calling it fiery, there's little else to go on.


If we're being completely honest, there's really nothing to go on.
All we have are claims about a Hell.



posted on Oct, 2 2011 @ 07:16 PM
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Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Frira

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Frira
Elaborate? Sure. Easy. The answer to your two LEADING questions were in the part of my post that you chose not to include.


Personal interpretation that question is LEADING.


No. Not personal interpretation.



There is no inflection or emotion transmitted via electronic blogs.

Any interpretation of meaning - - comes from the reader - - YOU.


Jeez.

Explain to him which category you put your line of questioning in:

Retroduction
Abductive
Deductive
Introductive

And put the pieces in that are required for YOU to have asked those questions. It's a lot easier to have agreement and understanding when you give others the details of how you get to your conclusion that the question was needed.

If you cannot, then his accusation might just have some merit.

And if you can't (not talking about won't) put it into one of the fields of reasoning, it's not that big a deal, it's just means that you don't put things into logical fields of reasoning. I, for one, can only sometimes do it.



posted on Oct, 2 2011 @ 07:36 PM
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Originally posted by IroncladIt's usually the religious people who are one sided and single minded robots, following some book written by what aquatints to little more than cavemen thousands of years ago, forgetting that we live in an age of reason. Which is why so many people today (except those few throwbacks who believe the books), question their validity.
We usually experience a "Come to Jesus" speech from those that are not us. Unfortunately for Christianity, we're shattered enough to be attempting conversion instead of unification, so people are more likely to come across several Christian factions converting.

Originally posted by GalacticPhotonBands
Every time a self-righteous religious nut tries to convert you to their religion, try convert them to yours (or atheism) with as much fervour. Fair enough, right?

Fight fire with fire.
I have absolutely no problem with that. Which is why the ones who do want to debate tickle me so much.


Up to IAMIAM on page 12:



posted on Oct, 2 2011 @ 07:42 PM
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Originally posted by CynicalDrivel
And put the pieces in that are required for YOU to have asked those questions. It's a lot easier to have agreement and understanding when you give others the details of how you get to your conclusion that the question was needed.


I have no need to do that.

How ever one interprets - - they interpret. That is the point. They basically are revealing themselves and their emotions to a blank wall. Their choice.

Occasionally I will go into detailed information. When I do - - it is my choice to do so.




edit on 2-10-2011 by Annee because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 2 2011 @ 08:53 PM
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Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by sacgamer25
reply to post by traditionaldrummer
 


I have proof. The bible, Jesus and the resurrection are all real and Jesus and his resurrection have been recorded by non biblical sources as well.


Here we go again.

There is not ONE shred of concrete evidence for proof of the "mystical" bible Jesus.

Even actual history written at the time "mystical" bible Jesus was "in his prime" - - - does not exist - - in reference to him.

I refer to "mystical" bible Jesus. Because there were actually (I read) about 18 men named Jesus at that time.


I have a feeling that sacgamer25 has taken on faith much of what is claimed in his/her church without ever checking it out for themselves. That's a shame because he/she will be in for a surprise if they ever start investigating his/her beliefs.


I’m going to keep this short. I have read actually listened to on CD the entire bible. I rarely have attended church in my life but I will provide you with a few links to help you understand where my belief comes from. Still would like to see why we have genders, live birth and the egg. Not the chicken and the egg, just the why the egg.

Even non believers understand that the New Testament was not canonized until around 300 AD. Notice all 27 of these books and letters existed shortly after Jesus death and were independent of each other. 27 books by at least 6 different authors. So in fact we have 27 books or letters written by various authors that Jesus was in fact a real person who did real miracles. This is more written history than we have of any other single event from this time period. Because believers decided to place them in one book does not change the facts.

Dead Sea scrolls and other manuscripts detailing Jesus dated from BC to 200 AD Oh and by the way not one document found that refutes Jesus being less than a healing profit.
dss.collections.imj.org.il...
en.wikipedia.org...
www.pleaseconvinceme.com...

Note science has proven the Old Testament predates Christ.
www.cynet.com...

Biblical science
www.clarifyingchristianity.com...

Debunking Evolution
www.newgeology.us...
en.wikipedia.org...
www.present-truth.org...
www.trueorigin.org...

Oh and here are some noted scientists who believe the same as me.
www.christiananswers.net...

For those of you who prefer YouTube over reading Walter Veith gives some compelling evidence.
www.youtube.com...

edit on 2-10-2011 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)

edit on 2-10-2011 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 2 2011 @ 09:40 PM
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reply to post by Pixiefyre
 


You have simply provided evidence of an organism adapting to its environment. It did not in any way become a more complex or intelligent life form. No not the chicken vs. the egg, just the egg.



posted on Oct, 2 2011 @ 10:08 PM
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Originally posted by sacgamer25
This is more written history than we have of any other single event from this time period.


It is not history - - it is hearsay. It proves nothing.

There is actual history of the time of mystical bible Jesus. He is not mentioned.

The real history does talk about a Jesus. But the real history is a far cry from the mystical Jesus.

Kind of reminds me of some of our mythical old west heroes.



posted on Oct, 2 2011 @ 10:58 PM
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Originally posted by DarkKnight76
Well, once I tell you I am not interested in your voodoo mumbojumbo, then it is time to shut up and let me burn.
What if we imagine it not as saving a friend from Hell, but rather as one Jew trying to save his friends' families by getting them out of Germany in the days aftee Hitler took power.

Should he stop trying as soon as the friends says, "Bull#! Hitler wouldn't do that. The German people wouldn't let him." it is a different perspective, isn't it?



posted on Oct, 2 2011 @ 11:01 PM
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Originally posted by DarthMuerte
reply to post by DarkKnight76
 
Agreed. If you are introduced to God by the person and you reject God, that person should move on to others who might possibly be saved. If God really wants the person who has rejected him, he will find another way. God has given us free will to decide for ourselves. Choose with him or against but recognize the consequences of your decision.


I always ask the religious person trying to save me, which God are you talking about? Well, they often say, there is only one God. But then I have to tell them of the 18 Gods and Two Goddesses in the Bible they are usually holding, and they never believe me, because they have not read the book, only certain chapters.
Then I ask, "what are you saving me from?" Hell, they say, to which I reply, friend, you are standing in Hell Central right now, I work in retail.
Then I attempt to educate them on what the Bible was based on Sumerian and Babylonian stories, and the whole New Testament was written by Romans, not "disciples."
Then I ask if they have researched their Bible and it's origins, and also the origins of Christianity.
Then I go into the Crimes of the Church, and the innocent blood on their hands. Then I simply say that I am not interested in joining their cult.
By this time they are usually headed for the car, fast.

They just hate trying to convert someone who knows the Bible better than they do, and can talk circles around them on every subject matter they bring up. Sadly, for me anyway, they stopped coming to my house. Dammit! I like messing with their heads!



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