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The Morality Of Saving People From Hell

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posted on Oct, 2 2011 @ 04:19 AM
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reply to post by 547000
 


Yes I suppose atheists too.. and Agnostics and communists and republicans...etc (not just religion where people can't mind their own business..lol)

Although , I can't seem to remember an atheist ever trying to convert me to their way of thinking..

It's usually the religious people who are one sided and single minded robots, following some book written by what aquatints to little more than cavemen thousands of years ago, forgetting that we live in an age of reason. Which is why so many people today (except those few throwbacks who believe the books), question their validity.
edit on 10/2/2011 by Ironclad because: (no reason given)




posted on Oct, 2 2011 @ 04:35 AM
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reply to post by Ironclad
 


Have you been living under rock? Internet atheists love to ram their beliefs down your throat.

I don't find trying to get someone to change their opinion unethical. Practically every human does it.



posted on Oct, 2 2011 @ 05:21 AM
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Maria Simma died in 2004. Durning her life, she had the charism of souls from Purgatory appearing to her.
Maria lived in Sonntag, Austria.

"One day, I was on a train and in my compartment there was a man who didn't stop speaking evil of the Church, of priests, even of God. I said to him: "Listen, you don't have the right to say all that, it's not good." He was furious at me. Afterwards, I arrived at my station, I got down from the train, and said to God: "Lord, do not let this soul be lost." Years later; the soul of this man came to visit me; he told me that he had come very close to Hell, but he was saved simply by this prayer I had said at that moment!

Yes, it's extraordinary to see that just one thought, one impulse of the heart, a simple prayer for someone can prevent them from falling into Hell."


www.holysoulscrusade.org...



posted on Oct, 2 2011 @ 06:21 AM
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Every time a self-righteous religious nut tries to convert you to their religion, try convert them to yours (or atheism) with as much fervour. Fair enough, right?

Fight fire with fire.



posted on Oct, 2 2011 @ 07:26 AM
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Originally posted by IAMIAM

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
Sure, and some people might believe that Blue Puffies will drown you in the bathtub unless they "save" you. That is their problem, not mine, and I am certainly allowed the authority to judge their righteousness.


Judge another's righteousness then. In doing so, yours will be put to judgement.

The vicious cycle will never end this way.

When you are judging another, you are placing yourself above them. You do not like it done to you, so do not do it to others.


Once an individual performs any action that affects me I have no choice but to "judge", that is, to evaluate the net effect of the action and consider the motives behind it. This is not a bad thing. It's inevitable and required in any social species and trying to divorce one's self from the process is not only a bad idea but likely impossible.



posted on Oct, 2 2011 @ 10:41 AM
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Originally posted by Evanzsayz
reply to post by TravisT
 


Christians do not go door to door you got the religions mixed up man, thats mormons and pentacostols


Anyone who is a follower of Christ's teachings/resurrection is a Christian and/or anyone who believes/defines themselves as Christian.

Mormons are Christians - - as are Pentecostals.

All Christians do missionary work of some kind to spread the word. But - yes I have had "regular old Christians" - knock on my door.



posted on Oct, 2 2011 @ 10:49 AM
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Originally posted by 547000
reply to post by Ironclad
 


Have you been living under rock? Internet atheists love to ram their beliefs down your throat.



I do not agree with that at all.

In my experience - - Atheists on "general" blogs/forums - - mostly speak up in response to God believers - - who speak first.

Christians have a serious persecution complex - - and are intolerant of any rejection/dismissal of their belief.



posted on Oct, 2 2011 @ 11:26 AM
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Originally posted by racasan
What about those Christians that try to have creationism taught as a science in schools, I understand that there are even some who would like nothing better than for TOE to be removed from the curriculum – this is forcing a belief on people

And parents that raise their children in a faith – and that’s certainly forcing a belief on people




I am a creationist and you are right no one should force a belief on someone else. You make my point exactly TOE needs to be removed from curriculum. I am opposed to TOE and creationism being taught K-12. This subject matter is better suited for college. Teaching TOE, a subject that is completely based on assumptions that cannot be proven is forcing a belief on people.

Scientifically speaking there is no proof that the part of the theory of evolution that assumes life started from primordial soup is correct. Nor is there any proof that man evolved from anything. Try to find how evolution explains these 3 things and tell me you still believe TOE is a fact.

Evolution cannot explain gender, male and female. The existence of male and female actually goes against evolution. Wouldn’t natural selection and survival tend to lean toward asexuality?

Look for evolutions answer for woman’s egg and man’s sperm and how evolution can explain this.
When exactly did bacteria decide that simply spitting was not good enough? When did natural selection decide hey I know a better plan? Let’s make male and female, make them have sex, and give birth. None of these process can be explained by evolution but you think TOE should remain in school.

Look at the egg in general. Where did the first egg come from?



posted on Oct, 2 2011 @ 01:37 PM
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Originally posted by sacgamer25
Teaching TOE, a subject that is completely based on assumptions that cannot be proven is forcing a belief on people.


Actually, TOE is completely based on facts, is confirmed by multiple branches of science and is arguably the most solid and well-established scientific theory in history. Not only is TOE not a belief, but it is knowledge that you can confirm your yourself.



posted on Oct, 2 2011 @ 01:56 PM
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Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by sacgamer25
Teaching TOE, a subject that is completely based on assumptions that cannot be proven is forcing a belief on people.


Actually, TOE is completely based on facts, is confirmed by multiple branches of science and is arguably the most solid and well-established scientific theory in history. Not only is TOE not a belief, but it is knowledge that you can confirm your yourself.


We are already off topic and I refuse to debate anyone who doesn't understand TOE enough to realize that it in no way explains origins or proves any of the points I just listed as being possible or even likely. Listening to an Evolutionist try and explain origins, gender, the process of birth is like listening to a 6 year old tell you Santa is real.



posted on Oct, 2 2011 @ 02:02 PM
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Originally posted by sacgamer25
We are already off topic and I refuse to debate anyone who doesn't understand TOE enough to realize that it in no way explains origins or proves any of the points I just listed as being possible or even likely.


The TOE beautifully explains the origins of species and is confirmed by mountains of evidence. If by "origins" you meant the first appearance of life then you're confusing TOE with another scientific theory.


Listening to an Evolutionist try and explain origins, gender, the process of birth is like listening to a 6 year old tell you Santa is real.


Ad hominem attacks (and use of the word "evolutionists") reveal much about your argument or lack thereof. I have no problem discussing our differences in opinion over TOE but if you're starting off with ad hominem provocation then I suspect you're likely frustrated that you're on intellectually indefensible ground.



posted on Oct, 2 2011 @ 02:06 PM
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"I know nothing of God... or the Devil. I have never seen a vision, nor learned a secret, that would damn or save my soul." The Vampire Armand



posted on Oct, 2 2011 @ 02:26 PM
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Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
Once an individual performs any action that affects me I have no choice but to "judge", that is, to evaluate the net effect of the action and consider the motives behind it. This is not a bad thing. It's inevitable and required in any social species and trying to divorce one's self from the process is not only a bad idea but likely impossible.


If you have no choice my friend, then I guess you ARE the judge.

Do what you must do my friend.

I can certainly relate.

With Love,

Your Brother



posted on Oct, 2 2011 @ 02:28 PM
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reply to post by traditionaldrummer
 


It is through intellect that I came to the understanding I have now. I was taught TOE as a child and believed it. It wasn't until I was an adult that I began to study the debate between creationism and evolution. I realized that creationist makes one claim, God created and as part of this they debunk evolution and prove the assumptions and not fact.

It is through intellect that I came to the understanding I have now. I was taught TOE as a child and believed it. It wasn't until I was an adult that I began to study the debate between creationism and evolution. I realized that creationist makes one claim, God created and as part of this they debunk evolution and prove the assumptions and not fact.

TOE is a theory based on so many assumptions that it is mind numbing that anyone thinks this is fact. There is only one fact in evolution, organisms adapt to their environment. They simply do not become more intelligent forms of life. Any argument that supports this theory is based on the assumption that over millions of years this could happen. I am simply attacking the arguments for origin, gender, birth, the egg. Try to find some facts on these. They don’t exist. Evolutionists do not know why we have genders or live birth or the egg. And when they try and show how this could be an evolutionary process they fail to prove anything. If this was even possible don’t you believe that over the last 300 years scientists who have been trying to make this happen would have succeeded?

My point was you believe in TOE the same way a child believes in Santa. If there are presents under the tree that say Santa he must be real. If a scientists claims that he can prove how we, forget origins for a second, got from single cell to where we are now because he sees such vast amounts of life, then it must be real. There is absolutely not one bit of scientific fact that suggests anything can ever change into a more complex and intelligent life form. The TOE starts and stops with an organism adapting to its environment. Amazing how creationists except this as proof of intellegent design. But evolutionists assume that millions of years later the organism finally becomes more complex.

Some interesting thought for you to research for yourself. One of the parts of TOE is the necessity for an organism to become more complex to survive. This is simply not true. Bacteria have been around since the beginning so when did they need to become more complex to survive? The answer is never if you didn't know. So if they never needed to become more complex to survive why would they? If life never needed to be more complex than asexual why do we have genders? If giving live birth or laying an egg doesn’t aid in survival why does it happen? The TOE only puts together a guess that removes God not a single fact that answers any of my questions.

Yes I am a creationist and I lean towards a young earth but I do not completly dismiss the possibily of an older earth. And for me the TOE does not belong in any science book.

I believe this argument actually fits directly in with the OPs point. Is it Moral to try and teach people your beliefs? Athiest must believe so because they ensure that it is taught to all of our kids in school. They call it TOE.


edit on 2-10-2011 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)

edit on 2-10-2011 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)

edit on 2-10-2011 by sacgamer25 because: added text



posted on Oct, 2 2011 @ 03:35 PM
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Originally posted by sacgamer25
Is it Moral to try and teach people your beliefs? Athiest must believe so because they ensure that it is taught to all of our kids in school. They call it TOE.


I'm sorry, but TOE is not an "atheist belief", nor is it belief of any kind. Just because you believe it intrudes on your personal beliefs neither makes it a belief nor does it make it untrue. As I said before, TOE is the most solid, well-established and tested scientific theory in history. To deny it's factuality is to misunderstand it. Also, atheism has nothing to do with TOE. I could disbelieve everything about TOE and still be an atheist.

Furthermore, if you want others to believe the universe, life or anything else was created by a deity you're going to have to both 1. establish the existence of the deity, and 2. catch the deity in the act of creating that which you claim it creates. We already have the evidence for TOE.



posted on Oct, 2 2011 @ 04:04 PM
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reply to post by traditionaldrummer
 


I have proof. The bible, Jesus and the resurrection are all real and Jesus and his resurrection have been recorded by non biblical sources as well. Only God could perform the miracles he preformed, also documented by non biblical sources. But that proves nothing to you. This statement although true will not be believed by you either; more evidence exists for God and Jesus than for one organism evolving into a more complex organism.
Did you know that 92% of Americans believe in God in some form? How do you answer this?

www.washingtonpost.com...



posted on Oct, 2 2011 @ 04:13 PM
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Originally posted by sacgamer25
reply to post by traditionaldrummer
 


I have proof. The bible, Jesus and the resurrection are all real and Jesus and his resurrection have been recorded by non biblical sources as well. Only God could perform the miracles he preformed, also documented by non biblical sources. But that proves nothing to you.


That does prove nothing to me, because that proves nothing to anyone. The bible is only a book which makes claims. No miracle has ever been observed.

Again: to prove your creationist hypothesis you must both produce the deity that does it and catch the deity in the act of creating that which you say it creates.


This statement although true will not be believed by you either; more evidence exists for God and Jesus than for one organism evolving into a more complex organism.
Did you know that 92% of Americans believe in God in some form? How do you answer this?



No evidence exists that establishes the existence of any god and we have no evidence confirming that Jesus ever existed. I don't know where you're getting your information but it's not correct.

And the fact that 92% of people believe anything doesn't make it true.
edit on 2-10-2011 by traditionaldrummer because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 2 2011 @ 04:22 PM
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Originally posted by sacgamer25
reply to post by traditionaldrummer
 


I have proof. The bible, Jesus and the resurrection are all real and Jesus and his resurrection have been recorded by non biblical sources as well.


Here we go again.

There is not ONE shred of concrete evidence for proof of the "mystical" bible Jesus.

Even actual history written at the time "mystical" bible Jesus was "in his prime" - - - does not exist - - in reference to him.

I refer to "mystical" bible Jesus. Because there were actually (I read) about 18 men named Jesus at that time.



posted on Oct, 2 2011 @ 04:26 PM
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Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by sacgamer25
reply to post by traditionaldrummer
 


I have proof. The bible, Jesus and the resurrection are all real and Jesus and his resurrection have been recorded by non biblical sources as well.


Here we go again.

There is not ONE shred of concrete evidence for proof of the "mystical" bible Jesus.

Even actual history written at the time "mystical" bible Jesus was "in his prime" - - - does not exist - - in reference to him.

I refer to "mystical" bible Jesus. Because there were actually (I read) about 18 men named Jesus at that time.


I have a feeling that sacgamer25 has taken on faith much of what is claimed in his/her church without ever checking it out for themselves. That's a shame because he/she will be in for a surprise if they ever start investigating his/her beliefs.



posted on Oct, 2 2011 @ 04:39 PM
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Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
Are those people in your life who try to convert you to save you from Hell moral and correct in their actions?

If one sincerely believes in Hell and cares about you enough to try to save you from it, they must be a moral and caring person acting in the right, otherwise to let you perish would make them an amoral sociopath.

However, the more someone tries to save you, the more of an undesirable creep they are perceived to be. Religious conversion is often unwanted.

Is the attempt to save others from Hell a moral action or is it an unethical action?


It isn't by any means either one. All anyone can do, in spite of how much they care for the person concerned ? Is give or plant seeds ( as they are called ). Answer questions if asked. Then they have to know the rest is up to God. God can snatch you from the flames. I mean Jesus is the one who saved me. I can save no one. That's why you won't find me trying shove what I believe down peoples throats. If a Christian ever does that ?
He doesn't know enough about what he is attempting to do. Christianity is spread by God not by men. If this weren't true. Christianity would have never cleared the gate.



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