The Morality Of Saving People From Hell

Originally posted by traditionaldrummerNobody claimed any such thing. It seems you referred to some atheist that angered you. Please don't take your anger for others out on us.

I didn't notice it in here, either, but I do see it in this site, occasionally. I just don't think people can see when it does happen because they're too busy only reacting instead of thinking with compassion.

Originally posted by DarkKnight76
Well, once I tell you I am not interested in your voodoo mumbojumbo, then it is time to shut up and let me burn.

That is exactly right and you deserve each star you got.

Sure, you can tell me anything you personally believe and you can voice your concern, but as soon as I say I don't believe in that non-sense and you need to drop it, then you need to drop it ( general you, not you specifically).

besides, we all know the basic idea of the Christian church....So you are not going to say anything we have not already heard.

I am agnostic at best and I do not believe in hell. I am a grown man and if I am wrong, so be it. I don't need anyone telling me that they think I am wrong and then trying to force their beliefs on to me.

I believe what I believe as strongly as you do and for my own reasons....

If I say drop it, it is because I disagree... I respect your beliefs and it is my subtle way of saying back off and respect mine.

Originally posted by Frira

I've watched the Christians lose their hold on society/politics for the last 50+ years. They really do think they OWN this country.

Nature abhors a vacuum. I agree that many Christians (or at least, too many) use their faith like a weapon; but when you remove that power from them, someone will step in to fill the void.

Like an Atheist?

Or do you have Islam phobia?

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


I have a friend in this situation exactly. His family is all JW, and after years they gave him an ultimatum, join their religion officially or he would basically be shunned. He chose not to live in fear over something that he could not see, hear, touch, taste or smell. He found that their love, was not a love that was worth having on the conditions that he live a lie. So far it has worked out for him, but I'm sure it eats at him. We had discussions on this topic and a few ideas are laid out here.

In a situation like this, you can be defensive:

ex. "Who are you to judge me?" etc etc

You can use their own knowledge against then:

ex. Q "Why am I going to hell?"
A "Original sin"
Q "But didn't 'Jesus' die for our sins, thereby establishing a new covenant? Isn't that what the whole 'lamb of God' thing is all about?"
A "umm...."

To be honest, when people care about you, they want you to be happy and to live a long and healthy life. If you are a generally good person who isn't out solely for personal gain and who has some interest in making the world a better place, than you have nothing to worry about. It seems to me a contradiction that simple, flawed man can forgive each other for transgressions, to help those in need, and to have hope for the future, but an all powerful all knowing being that supposedly created everything out of love, would be incapable of these small gestures.

I'm sure if there is a God, he/she would be watching us like a parent watches a child on a playground. If we start beating each other up on the playground he/she will step in, and seperate us. But to believe that we would be sent to a pit of torture for all eternity, is just not something that screams "I love you" to me.

-Cheers

Originally posted by CynicalDrivel
I've had your Crisis of faith, about 5 years ago, as well. The big difference is that I stuck with Christianity, while you did not. I see flaws pretty much all the way down to the foundations of the faith.

What crises? There was no crises.

I read and searched for many years. There is NOTHING that substantiates the mythical Christ story.

I understand the energy cohesion in a congregation - - which is even more powerful if all of our of same thought.

It is like a drug.

Once one steps completely out of the "god circle" - - the drug wears off. Reality and logic glow like a beacon of clarity.

Definitely no crises.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by Frira

On the one hand, Christian parents raising the children to believe as they do is causing psychological problems, but on the other hand, atheists teaching their children to be atheists is fine!

Nobody has to teach children atheism.

Of course they do-- by answering the child's questions which will come up.

Out of which orifice are you speaking?

Likewise

So tell me, where was my irony? Where have I implied, hypocritically, that I am morally superior (like implying that only Christians and not atheists hire or fire based upon faith choices) or negatively stereotyped a faith group other than my own?

So stop the absurdity of claiming your atheism makes you a superior being-- you are just self-indulgently hate-mongering-- like many humans do (regardless of their faith).

Nobody claimed any such thing. It seems you referred to some atheist that angered you. Please don't take your anger for others out on us.

Of course that claim of moral superiority as compared to Christians is being made in the very anecdotes I took from this thread! Did you not know that each opposing claim I juxtaposed came from a post in this thread?

My anger is a reaction to the careless use of stereotyping combined with self-serving bias. And I used reason to express that anger-- which makes me not only a reasonable and sane man, but a patient one.

I was careful to say why I brought up the actions of my atheist boss-- you just do not find my explanation serves your stereotyping. So it is that, inadvertently, in your reply you make my point:

Humans, without regard to faith, misuse their power and influence, and faith is just one of many groupings by which humans will exercise preferential bias. Humans like to be around people who agree with them-- including atheists and Christians, including Muslims, including Republicans and Democrats, including Scandinavians and Hispanics, including pro-Union and anti-Union; including Apple and PC!

But for you, it is only Christians who exercise this behavior? However, most of my friends are either atheists or agnostics-- I love them for who they are-- not for their agreement with me. That would not be possible if they, being atheist or agnostic, did not love me for who I am, not for my spiritual agreement with them. So, just as some, like you, villainize anyone who is different; they, like me, embrace the difference because that comes with the person.

Come up higher. The place you have chosen to sit is too low for you.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Frira

I've watched the Christians lose their hold on society/politics for the last 50+ years. They really do think they OWN this country.

Nature abhors a vacuum. I agree that many Christians (or at least, too many) use their faith like a weapon; but when you remove that power from them, someone will step in to fill the void.

Like an Atheist?

Or do you have Islam phobia?

edit on 1-10-2011 by Annee because: (no reason given)

You insult me for what reason?

You put words in my mouth to match your low opinion of me?

How does that serve you?

How does that serve this discussion?

Originally posted by Frira
Come up higher. The place you have chosen to sit is too low for you.

I'm sorry but I do not wish to address the problems you have with someone else. I would prefer it if you would remain on topic if it all possible. Thank you

Originally posted by Frira

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Frira

I've watched the Christians lose their hold on society/politics for the last 50+ years. They really do think they OWN this country.

Nature abhors a vacuum. I agree that many Christians (or at least, too many) use their faith like a weapon; but when you remove that power from them, someone will step in to fill the void.

Like an Atheist?

Or do you have Islam phobia?

You insult me for what reason?

You put words in my mouth to match your low opinion of me?

How does that serve you?

How does that serve this discussion?

Feel free to elaborate in detail - explanation.

I presented you with two questions.

How you interpret those questions comes from you - - not from me.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by Frira
Come up higher. The place you have chosen to sit is too low for you.

I'm sorry but I do not wish to address the problems you have with someone else. I would prefer it if you would remain on topic if it all possible. Thank you

How very disingenuous of you.

I was quite on topic. There was no discussion of a problem with another person-- there was only my reply to your ill-conceived post. Why you brought up the price of tea in China is beyond me; but I brought it back on topic.

But, thank you for standing up to serve as an example of how even some atheists will vilify others just as do some Christians. You may now be seated.

Originally posted by Frira
How very disingenuous of you.

I was quite on topic. There was no discussion of a problem with another person-- there was only my reply to your ill-conceived post. Why you brought up the price of tea in China is beyond me; but I brought on topic.

But, thank you for standing up to serve as an example of how even some atheists will vilify others just as do some Christians. You may now be seated.

If you have a disagreement over something I said I will gladly engage in respectable discourse with you about it. You showed no interest in doing any such thing and have proceeded to display yourself consistently as a jackass. If you have a problem with atheists start your own thread and dump your bigotry over there. Get well soon, angry person.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by Frira
How very disingenuous of you.

I was quite on topic. There was no discussion of a problem with another person-- there was only my reply to your ill-conceived post. Why you brought up the price of tea in China is beyond me; but I brought on topic.

But, thank you for standing up to serve as an example of how even some atheists will vilify others just as do some Christians. You may now be seated.

If you have a disagreement over something I said I will gladly engage in respectable discourse with you about it. You showed no interest in doing any such thing and have proceeded to display yourself consistently as a jackass. If you have a problem with atheists start your own thread and dump your bigotry over there. Get well soon, angry person.

Care to demonstrate some of that "respect" by quoting from ANY of your posts to me?

Originally posted by CynicalDrivel
Christianity has not died under real persecution, it has flourished.

Even if Christianity actually endured real persecution in America (which it never has) it would still flourish as long as they get to keep the tax-free status.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Frira

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Frira

I've watched the Christians lose their hold on society/politics for the last 50+ years. They really do think they OWN this country.

Nature abhors a vacuum. I agree that many Christians (or at least, too many) use their faith like a weapon; but when you remove that power from them, someone will step in to fill the void.

Like an Atheist?

Or do you have Islam phobia?

You insult me for what reason?

You put words in my mouth to match your low opinion of me?

How does that serve you?

How does that serve this discussion?

Feel free to elaborate in detail - explanation.

I presented you with two questions.

How you interpret those questions comes from you - - not from me.

edit on 1-10-2011 by Annee because: (no reason given)

Elaborate? Sure. Easy. The answer to your two LEADING questions were in the part of my post that you chose not to include. To sum up:

"Like an atheist?" The opposite. That is, as was clear my post, that whoever came into power may not be any more amiable-- just trading one problem for another.

"Or do you have Islam phobia?" Nope, no phobias at all. So why ask a leading question like that, when I have written nothing to suggest that to be so?

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


everything you stated was assumption and not really true.

Many times I won't try to "save someone" for it is not yet their time. That doesn't make me immoral nor a sociopath. I don't even believe in morals to begin with beyond not sexing everyone up.

And it doesn't make you a creep when you try. Most of the times its lead me to a deeper friendship.

This really is you being poor in understanding of not only other faiths but other cultures as well.

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by traditionaldrummer

 

everything you stated was assumption and not really true.

Many times I won't try to "save someone" for it is not yet their time. That doesn't make me immoral nor a sociopath. I don't even believe in morals to begin with beyond not sexing everyone up.

And it doesn't make you a creep when you try. Most of the times its lead me to a deeper friendship.

This really is you being poor in understanding of not only other faiths but other cultures as well.

No, it isn't and you admit to having your own esoteric beliefs. I am not here to create hypothetical scenarios to conform with your personal belief system. The object is to discuss ethical and moral implications, not to determine how accurately I've pegged your personal approach to religious conversion.

Originally posted by Frira

Atheists organizations, like Christian organizations, use power to influence where they believe it is needed.

So, count yourself into the group of those who have become the very thing they hate.

Atheism is not a belief. It is lack of a belief in a deity. That is all it is. Government must be free of all and any religious dogma. What one does personally is up to them.

American Atheists Aims and Principles

American Atheists, Inc. is a nonprofit, nonpolitical, educational organization dedicated to the complete and absolute separation of state and church, accepting the explanation of Thomas Jefferson that the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States was meant to create a "wall of separation" between state and church.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


Moralities in the bible is only spoken of when dealing with sex. Ethics is never even mentioned. Though as a hierarchy dealing with morality, it too would only deal with sex.

It's not my problem you don't want to deal with what the bible says but only your own flawed view of it.

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by traditionaldrummer

 

Moralities in the bible is only spoken of when dealing with sex. Ethics is never even mentioned. Though as a hierarchy dealing with morality, it too would only deal with sex.

It's not my problem you don't want to deal with what the bible says but only your own flawed view of it.

I'm sorry, Gorman91. We're here discussing philosophical concepts and aren't limiting ourselves to your personal interpretation of morality, nor just those things mentioned in the bible.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


That's a contradiction. You talk of things that directly relate to the bible but refuse the bible as evidence hereto that you are wrong.