What made you first suspect that these 9/11 conspiracy stories were false?

Unfortunately we will have to agree to dissagree

Im not going to link you to anybody as theres so many threads on this site that you have chose to ignore and youv made your mind up


Theres hundreds of fire fighters, parmedics, and office workers who witnesses explosions prior to plane impact right up until the towers came down but you dismiss them

Originally posted by samkent
Concerning the smoke from the engine.

500mph is 733 feet per second.
How far was the light poles from the impact point?
Which pole hit the engine vs the wing? The first pole? The last?
Did the engine start smoking 1/100 of a second after it hit the pole?Or did it take 1.5 seconds to start smoking?

I doubt there was much time to see any smoke at all.

There was smoke. I took a screenshot of the video from the security camera that was shown in the simulation. A smoke trail is clearly visable.

Originally posted by kaya82
Unfortunately we will have to agree to dissagree

Im not going to link you to anybody as theres so many threads on this site that you have chose to ignore and youv made your mind up

Theres hundreds of fire fighters, parmedics, and office workers who witnesses explosions prior to plane impact right up until the towers came down but you dismiss them

Now why do you have to go and attempt to back up a lie with another lie? Noone on the face of thr Earth is denying there were explosions. That baloney is just a stawman argument coming entirely from you conspiracy people. Yes, there were explosions. Eyewitnesses heard explosions. Journalists heard explosions. The people who were in the buildings heard explosions. Heck, *we* heard explosions while we were watching the whole thing on television. Have you yourself heard anyone claiming there were never explosions? Even one?

The fact is, the plane that hit the south tower hit literally one floor above a dedicated mechanical floor chock full of machinery that would go BOOM when on fire- electrical transformers, pressurized pipes, generators, fuel tanks, etc- and the planes dumped thousands of gallons of burning aviation fuel into this area. How the heck would there *not* be explosions going off? The fact that the explosions were random is proof right there they were the flammable objects in the building that were exploding as the fires reached them in turn, rather than synchronized explosions as controlled demolitions are. On the other hand,if they were controlled demolitions the building would have come down at that instant, not a half hour later.

List of Tenants in WTC 2 by floor

This whole "you refuse to listen to anything we say" excuse is starting to get old.

Originally posted by JIMC5499
There was smoke. I took a screenshot of the video from the security camera that was shown in the simulation. A smoke trail is clearly visable.

What bewilders me is that it's this very smoke trail the conspiracy people are pointing out to claim it was a missile to begin with; they're saying it's really the exhaust from a missile and that planes don't emit smoke. If they're now refuting this is smoke then all they're doing is refuting their OWN "missile hit the Pentagon" claims.

These conspiracy people are changing their story more often than an unfaithful husband.

reply to post by GoodOlDave


What I think is funny is this, it seems that a few people have forgotten that each tower had 4 sides. So if you are in a window on the south side on the 70th floor, you won't see what hit the building on the north side at the 95th floor. So it is a logical assumption for them to conclude that something caused a large explosion. In fact, the airplanes caused the large primary explosion that resulted in smaller explosions as various fire events took over the building.

Have people even heard of the backdraft concept? What we do not have video of is the people falling or "jumping" out on the side that was hit, we see every video from the side that was not hit and there is a great amount of smoke and fire coming out that opposite side which means the fire went straight across floors.

There was much evidence of jet fuel going down stairwells and the elevator shafts. What happens when you have a line of gasoline and set one end on fire? The fire follows the fuel.

As a survivor of a house fire, I can tell you from experience how fire works. The fire in my house started at a wall outlet and traveled through the wall and when it hit the ceiling, the ceiling collapsed. My house was not made of steel beams though but the heat was immense. In fact, the heat wave from the living room went through my bedroom, swept across the bed where I was just sleeping in and hit the window blowing it outward. That was the heat alone. My house was small and the fire department got there soon enough and it did not fall down but I had a small dog that died of smoke inhalation.

Did you know that when your house is on fire, you have only 7 minutes to get out?

Ernest Armstead, a fireman first responder of 9/11
www.youtube.com...

The children of PS 150 who witnessed this
www.youtube.com...

Would people care to say this entire school of the principal, teachers and students were all planted witnesses?

Originally posted by GoodOlDave

Originally posted by kaya82
Unfortunately we will have to agree to dissagree

Im not going to link you to anybody as theres so many threads on this site that you have chose to ignore and youv made your mind up

Theres hundreds of fire fighters, parmedics, and office workers who witnesses explosions prior to plane impact right up until the towers came down but you dismiss them

Now why do you have to go and attempt to back up a lie with another lie? Noone on the face of thr Earth is denying there were explosions. That baloney is just a stawman argument coming entirely from you conspiracy people. Yes, there were explosions. Eyewitnesses heard explosions. Journalists heard explosions. The people who were in the buildings heard explosions. Heck, *we* heard explosions while we were watching the whole thing on television. Have you yourself heard anyone claiming there were never explosions? Even one?

The fact is, the plane that hit the south tower hit literally one floor above a dedicated mechanical floor chock full of machinery that would go BOOM when on fire- electrical transformers, pressurized pipes, generators, fuel tanks, etc- and the planes dumped thousands of gallons of burning aviation fuel into this area. How the heck would there *not* be explosions going off? The fact that the explosions were random is proof right there they were the flammable objects in the building that were exploding as the fires reached them in turn, rather than synchronized explosions as controlled demolitions are. On the other hand,if they were controlled demolitions the building would have come down at that instant, not a half hour later.

List of Tenants in WTC 2 by floor

This whole "you refuse to listen to anything we say" excuse is starting to get old.

edit on 12-10-2011 by GoodOlDave because: (no reason given)

Ppl heard synchronised booms and explosions you are just choosing to ignore it.

You will not change my opinion. Explosions in sub basement level prior to plane impact. Obviously not caused my jet fuel

Originally posted by kaya82
Ppl heard synchronised booms and explosions you are just choosing to ignore it.

You will not change my opinion. Explosions in sub basement level prior to plane impact. Obviously not caused my jet fuel

Funny. Didn't the guy who claimed that say that he smelled kerosene, and that he was just above the basement, and the guy he saved was BURNED, not suffering shock wave damage?

I don't know how he could possibly be sure that the explosion happened before the plane hit.

Originally posted by Varemia

Originally posted by kaya82
Ppl heard synchronised booms and explosions you are just choosing to ignore it.

You will not change my opinion. Explosions in sub basement level prior to plane impact. Obviously not caused my jet fuel

Funny. Didn't the guy who claimed that say that he smelled kerosene, and that he was just above the basement, and the guy he saved was BURNED, not suffering shock wave damage?

I don't know how he could possibly be sure that the explosion happened before the plane hit.

No he didnt say that. He came to my home town a few years ago i heard his testimony in person and he didnt mention the smell of kerosene.

I really dont understand how you cant comprehend a person distinguising an explosion beneath them and then experiencing an explosion way way up the tower 30 seconds later

Yeah the guy was burned by an explosion below b2 which was the level they was on.

reply to post by kaya82


Hm. I've certainly heard conflicting reports then. Will definitely need to collect more information before being sure about anything.

reply to post by GoodOlDave
Oh Dave if you didn't make me chuckle I wouldn't like you so much,What is up with the anger Dave?I hope my beliefs aren't upsetting you?Look I'm not going to get wrapped up in a slinging contest,I do actually admire your tenacity.Our government may not lie all the time but then again they don't always tell the truth either.Whatever happened that day on "911" you don't know all of the story and either do the "truthers" so,can we agree on that?Most damn conspiracy sites talk about subjects that concerns the the U.S and the world and do enjoy reading them that's why I joined ATS,and like you I don't believe everything I read.I don't think any of us knows a fraction of what goes on in our world,but do remember...truth is stranger than fiction.

I too hope no one takes this story or any other subject on ATS serious enough to cause themselves or anyone else harm,no one not even you has control over that.
out of curiosity would you believe me if I said my eyes were green?

Originally posted by kaya82
Ppl heard synchronised booms and explosions you are just choosing to ignore it.

Do any of these people still subscribe to the idea they were actually explosives (I.E. firefighter Kenneth Rogers)? I can tell you right now that they don't. You're just quoting their statements taken on that one day and you're deliberately ignoring everything else they've been saying for the last ten years.

All the explosions have perfectly rational explanations. You specifially want to ignore them and go directly to the "conspiracy" explanations.

You will not change my opinion. Explosions in sub basement level prior to plane impact. Obviously not caused my jet fuel

Yes it was. William Rodriguez testified that fireballs from the impact came down the elevator shaft with such force that it pushed the elevator down into the basement like a bullet down the barrel of a gun and severely burned the occupant (which he subsequently rescued). The elevator wound up on the floor below him, where he said he felt the explosion from, so guess what caused the "explosion" he felt. If this was from explosives it would mean he would have been standing directly over the explosives and he would have been killed. Physics have to apply to your conspiracies just like they do everywhere else.

Regrettably, I know I won't change your opinion. It's patently obvious you are intentionally cherry picking your facts to suit your own purposes specifically so you won't have to believe anything to the contrary.

Like iv just said dave william came to my home town and i heard his testimony in person and he didnt say what you have just said.

Explosions were heard PRIOR to the plane impact in the SUB BASEMENT levels.

Dunno why am wasting my time replying to you anyway

reply to post by kaya82


Its amazing how many of the people who claimed explosions prior to the jet impact, never ONCE said that in the days/weeks immeadiately after 9/11. Ole Willie Rodriguez is THE prime example of that.

Originally posted by kaya82
I really dont understand how you cant comprehend a person distinguising an explosion beneath them and then experiencing an explosion way way up the tower 30 seconds later

I really don't understand how you can't comprehend the shockwave from the explosion would travel through open air faster than it does through the solid material. Rodriguez specifically said fireballs from the jet fuel came down the elevator shaft and pushed the elevator down to the basement level below him, meaning there had to have been a massive explosive force to do that. THEN, he specifically said he felt the tremor coming from above, which would have been the same shock wave as it made its way down to him through 100 floors of steel and concrete. These are Rodriguez' own words, so you are either calling Rodriguez a liar or you're saying there was a violation of the laws of physics somewhere.

All the clues are there to explain what happened, and I know you're not stupid and you are certainly capable of deducing what happened on your own if you would only apply critical analysis. The problem is that you're trying to convince yourself something *else* is true so you willing choose not to. Please explain to me how you believe a shockwave would NOT travel through open air faster than through solid material?

Yeah the guy was burned by an explosion below b2 which was the level they was on

...which you cannot claim for certain because you have not denounced the "William Rodriguez is lying" scenario yet.

He did not speciffically describe the fireball from the jet fuel!
Iv just told you that when i heard his testimony IN PERSON! he did not say that

You obviously dont read peoples words or you just choose to ignore what doesnt fit in with your fantasy

If you can show me a video were he says that fine but he didnt mention that in his testimony i seen. And if he has changed his story drastically i will be dissapointed


I find it odd that you always claim that people just dont want to believe things but thats untrue

If i had a choice which scenario to believe id much rather believe the os. But unfortunately iv seen far too many anomalys coincidents and holes in the story i can't. Its so blatenly obvious the os is a joke and no matter how many times you post on here that wont change

Buildings dont collapse symetrically in their own foot print at near free fall speed due to randon fires and some damage from debris

Originally posted by kaya82
Like iv just said dave william came to my home town and i heard his testimony in person and he didnt say what you have just said.

Then we have a problem because I'm specifically taking this from the transcript of his testimony to NIST and he specifically stated fireballs (his words. not mine) came down the elevator shaft, which is what caused the elevator accident to begin with. In the transcript he specifically stated he said the exact same thing to the 9/11 commission report. Rodriguez isn't contesting the validity of either transcript, so either Rodriguez is lying or what you think he said really isn't what he actually said.

Would you like to see the transcript? It's online. I'll even point out the page number his testimony is on. I have the truth on my side so I have nothing to hide.

Explosions were heard PRIOR to the plane impact in the SUB BASEMENT levels.

Now you're violating the rules of logic. If Rodriguez was INSIDE the building, there's no possible way for him to see what's going on OUTSIDE the building, and if he was OUTSIDE the building, there'd be no way to know what was going on INSIDE the building. How the heck would Rodriguez know when the impact was when he was way down in the basement? You're assuming the second explosion was the impact because the explosion he felt was coming from above, when it was really the explosion below him that coincided with the impact.

Besides, we already know the 1993 WTC bombing destroyed four floors above where the bomb was planted, so for Rodriguez to have survived a detonation of explosives sufficient to destroy a building it necessarily means either it wasn't a bomb Rodriguez felt below him, or Rodriguez is lying about everything. I have to presume Rodriguez isn't really Superman in disguise.

Dunno why am wasting my time replying to you anyway

Becuase you don't really care to learn the facts behind the 9/11 attack. You're here to pass on some sexy sounding conspiracy story that someone else passed onto you, and you never really stopped to really consider how goofy it sounds.

Originally posted by GoodOlDave
Physics have to apply to your conspiracies just like they do everywhere else.

So why isn't EVERYBODY on both sides of the issue demanding accurate information on the amount of steel and the amount of concrete on every level of the towers? It has only been TEN YEARS!!!

And what if the physics dictates that there is NO WAY that the top of the north tower could destroy everything below?

9/11 is a scientific farce. The scientists don't want correct data. But we are supposed to care about exo-planets and FTL neutrinos when physicists won't explain a couple of skyscrapers.

www.youtube.com...

Why can't they build a self supporting model that can completely collapse? They will look pretty silly if they try and can't do it after TEN YEARS.

psik

Originally posted by kaya82
He did not speciffically describe the fireball from the jet fuel!
Iv just told you that when i heard his testimony IN PERSON! he did not say that

Yes he did, in those exact words. Here is the link to the transcript in PDF format of all the eyewitness accounts given to NIST in NYC in 2004, and William Rodriguez was one of them. His testimony starts on page 70:

TRANSCRIPT OF EYEWITNESS ACCOUNTS GIVEN TO NIST

William Rodriguez testified:

"The fire, the ball of fire, for example, I was in the basement when the first plane hit the building. And at that moment, I thought it was an electrical generator that blew up at that moment. A person comes running into the office saying 'explosion, explosion, explosion.' When I look at this guy; has all his skin pulled off of his body. Hanging from the top of his fingertips like it was a glove. And I said, what happened? He said the elevators. What happened was the ball of fire went down with such a force down the elevator shaft on the 58th (50A) – freight elevator, the biggest freight elevator that we have in the North Tower, it went out with such a force that it broke the cables. It went down, I think seven flights. The person survived because he was pulled from the B3 level. But this person, being in front of the doors waiting for the elevator, practically got his skin vaporized."

He said balls of fire came down the elevator shaft with such force that it broke the cable and pushed the elevator down seven stories, and the laws of physics pretty much say this is going to cause a pretty big BANG when it happens.

You obviously dont read peoples words or you just choose to ignore what doesnt fit in with your fantasy

??? I'm specifically quoting William Rodriquez word for word when he said balls of fire came down the elevator shaft...and you say *I* am the one here who doesn't read people's words and who chooses to ignore what doesn't fit within our fantasy?!?

You really have no credibility. Between having to believe Rodriguez and having to believe you, I'll believe Rodriguez. He ws there, and you weren't.

Buildings dont collapse symetrically in their own foot print at near free fall speed due to randon fires and some damage from debris

It's utterly impossible for anyone to be able to sneak into an occupied building and secretly plant concealed controlled demolitions without anyone noticing either. It's like saying someone can put an elephant in your living room and you'd never see it. Rodriguez as a custodian would have had access to all the areas where those imaginary bombs would have been planted, and he worked there for years so he'd notice something would have been amiss immediately.

...so in the end, what's left? Dr. Judy Wood's "lasers from outer space" nonsense?

reply to post by psikeyhackr

So why isn't EVERYBODY on both sides of the issue demanding accurate information on the amount of steel and the amount of concrete on every level of the towers? It has only been TEN YEARS!!!

Because, JUST LIKE YOU, decided it wasn't neccessary to draw a conclusion. Case closed.

Originally posted by TWILITE22

 

Oh Dave if you didn't make me chuckle I wouldn't like you so much,What is up with the anger Dave?

It's not anger, it's frustration. I'm documenting in black and white how these damned fool conspiracy websites are lying through their teeth and these truthers are behaving as if it's treason or blasphemy to (gasp) ever consider that Alex Jones is a crackpot and Dylan Avery is a snake oil peddler. If this sounds like anger then this is my own human failing.

I hope my beliefs aren't upsetting you?Look I'm not going to get wrapped up in a slinging contest,I do actually admire your tenacity.Our government may not lie all the time but then again they don't always tell the truth either.Whatever happened that day on "911" you don't know all of the story and either do the "truthers" so,can we agree on that?

Oh, absolutely. I have said that numerous times. In fact it's this exact vacuum of information that instigating all these conspiracy people to come out of the woodwork and attempt to fill the void with crackpot tales of the gov't plotting to murder us all in the first place.

I too hope no one takes this story or any other subject on ATS serious enough to cause themselves or anyone else harm,no one not even you has control over that.

Then you should be interested to know I've had TWO people make vague threats against me here and how "someday I'm going to get what's coming to me". One of them I had to even drop the subtle hint that if he's planning to hunt me down for real he's got a 12 gauge waiting for him. On another board, one truther tried to "get me" by forging my handle and posting pornographic messages under my name to make me look like a pervert. All because I'm posting things they disagree with. Incredible.

I've always said that the truthers have such an outer space, fanatical strong emotional connection to these conspiracy claims that any attack on their theories is perceived as a personal attack on themselves, and they respond in kind. I have yet to have anyone explain how this is incorrect.

out of curiosity would you believe me if I said my eyes were green?

Unless proven otherwise, why would I not? Back in high school I knew a guy who wore colored contact lenses that made his eyes look green.