The Declaration of the Occupation of New York City

They need to be more specific. Rights for this! Rights for that! I see a lot of people looking for a free ride! As long as it doesn’t involve rights for the illegals! Come here like everyone else does, and then you’ll have some rights….!

Originally posted by Misoir
Just for some reason I do not trust these protestors, I do not know why it is just something I feel.

I get the same feeling about them, mostly because everything they're claiming about Wall Street has been aided and abetted by the Obama administration, or at the very least, ignored, and I'd be willing to bet the vast majority of the protesters plan to vote for him in 2012. If true, that makes them hypocrites or stupid. Either way, I can't take them seriously.

On the other hand, like you, I agree with almost all of their points. I think you nailed it.

Just because it exists, and its good, does not imply that everyone should be / is entitled to it.

Not everybody is entitled to a Rolex, or a 3,000 sq. ft house, or an education. The line has to be drawn somewhere (as I read in this thread by a succint author).

Yes, basic services should be afforded to Citizens, if possible (illegals, leave!). With the nat'l debt looming, probably not much else than what already exists should be considered.

To say that everybody is entitled to everything material and educational is socialism. Taken to the extreme... which is to me manifesting in either utter hatred and/or jealousy of the rich... is communism. We all know that communism does not work i.e. the Soviet Union and it's smaller buddies.

I did not have a chance to read the entire thread through yet... If it hasn't been addressed already, maybe someone can clarify this. What does the last part of the title of this thread mean: "Occupation of New York City"? Do they want to put gridlock throughout the entire city of NY?

Originally posted by antmax21
What the corporate elite have to do with illegal immigrants to me would be cheap labor. That is about it. Cheap labor and votes for whatever party they are interested in.

I wish people would stop using that "cheap labor" argument, it doesn't hold water. Bank of America isn't hiring illegals, small, local businesses are. The "votes" argument may be true for Democrats, but then how do you explain the fact that Republicans have done nothing to stop them from entering the country illegally?

Illegal immigrants are just a symptom of the fact that all of Washington is dead set on tearing down the southern border. They want to destroy the economy, increase crime, encourage racial violence, and allow the cartels free access to the southwestern U'S.

reply to post by morder1


And the Sheeple fall into the plans perfectly!!

Education is a human right. The brain is designed to learn and being forced to work routine/habitual/monotonous days for those who get to indulge in their curiosity is a travesty...on both parties...

The lack of education amongst a population only gives those educated and willful the chance to manipulate the former...intentionally and without grievance. We look down upon Nigerian scammers but accept Goldman Sach Scandals?

Please...

If they get too specific, they'll risk alienating their own supporters. The hardest thing with any protest movement is the more you want, the less you unite people. The Tea Party, in its inception, was people who were mad about the size and scope of government. As it coalesced into political action and plans, it lost momentum and supporters.

That's why I'm skeptical about labor joining up. I think it is great to get as many people as possible involved in the process, but their very organization means they will co-opt this for their agenda. Which isn't bad, but it will be divisive, and if the right comes to see this a left wing communist thing, they'll hate it as much as the left hated the tea parties.

I'm thinking of going to the one in the city where I live, scheduled for later in October, but I think it should be very simple and clean.

A few basic tenets like:
Every human being has dignity and should be treated like they do.
Governments should represent the interests of all their people, and not a selected group based on wealth or any other characteristic.
Governments should be transparent and accountable.
The first priority of our government should be the people of our nation.

And since it is the one thing I think even a capitalist and socialist can agree upon.

Banks should not be bailed out at the expense of the people.

I think that's your 99% approach, and it has an end goal. Shift power away from the banks, and require more openness.

I've seen enough of these things as an activist, politician, and campaign manager to be very skeptical. Like some others said here, it's an unfortunate reality that things won't change without violence. But what a movement like this can do is set an agenda.

What I think will happen is the unions will use it to rile up the left, but it's a shame because it isn't about that.

As many posters have said on here and with good justification, the world doesn't change until Americans get their heads out of their collective asses.

reply to post by AntiNWO


I can't speak for the whole group, but I plan to join the protesters when they come to DC on the 6th and I wouldn't vote for Obama if my life depended on it. Please don't put this movement in a neat little box and label it "liberal" or "left". It is so much bigger than that.

Originally posted by Misoir
reply to post by michaelmcclen

 

Everyone receives free K-12 in this country, period. Beyond that you must earn your way into college. In my opinion we need far less people in our colleges, when ‘higher education’ just becomes another stage of education for people it loses the ‘higher’ part of its title. When every moron who can garner a C average is allowed in, it weighs down the credibility of a degree. Then everyone will start moving towards having a Masters because most have Bachelors, and on and on. We have to draw the line somewhere.

The state should pay for higher education, I agree, but only for the ones colleges deem to be the most promising. This filters out the less desirable from bogging down the worth of degrees. The whole notion of equality of education is a sham and destructive for the high achievers. If you had 4.0 in school and get a Bachelors in College you have basically as much worth as the guy who was getting stoned, partying, and having a good time in high school and college but just barely earned a degree. It is an insult to treat people equally in my opinion when we are inherently unequal.

Evolution would say natural selection, let the intelligent move on and leave the weakest links to die. So do not bring evolution into the discussion here.

I can't quite decide if I agree or disagree with you...!!!

This reads like an Elitist Manifesto for Education, and nothing more than a continuation of the status quo in the FAILED education system in America. Yes, American children all receive the right to free education in this country, however it is OPTIONAL. The economic status of the families of some children allow some the advantage of private pre-schooling, and then some into into private schooling for grades K-12 which in most cases means a higher quality of education than those children in public schools will ever receive. In this classicist system these children are considered more favorable, or as you put it so eloquently, the other children then become "less-desirable."

Setting that aside, we then turn to the system of colleges and universities in America. With enough money, any "IDIOT" can get into college. In fact, a "C" average with the right financial backing in America is certainly "MORE DESIRABLE" than an A average without financial backing, as far as attending college is concerned. The playing field is not level in any education system where financial status determines the quality and availability of that education. Your manifesto could only work if all children were afforded an exactly equal level of learning, lest we begin to weed out the "less desirable" just the way we do know...with standardized testing that those in more prime geographical locations, and those with affluent families have an unfair advantage in "acing" those tests. In your world view, only the polished gems need apply, the diamond in the rough is left in the dirt...Just they way it has always been...the only talent that is ever exploited in America is the one with the money to back it.

I say your right, let's follow the LAW of natural selection...survival of the fittest and all...
IQ tests for ALL by the age of THREE. Let's decide on a cut-off point where IQ is concerned...and let's weed out the less desirable before they have a chance to clutter the space of the truly talented. "Let the intelligent move on and leave the weakest links to die..." or better yet, let's take the LESS DESIRABLE 3 year olds, those with low IQ's, drop them in a wood chipper and use that mulch to fertilize the lawns of our best IVY league schools!!!

BARF.

Originally posted by Misoir
reply to post by michaelmcclen

 

Everyone receives free K-12 in this country, period. Beyond that you must earn your way into college. In my opinion we need far less people in our colleges, when ‘higher education’ just becomes another stage of education for people it loses the ‘higher’ part of its title. When every moron who can garner a C average is allowed in, it weighs down the credibility of a degree. Then everyone will start moving towards having a Masters because most have Bachelors, and on and on. We have to draw the line somewhere.

The state should pay for higher education, I agree, but only for the ones colleges deem to be the most promising. This filters out the less desirable from bogging down the worth of degrees. The whole notion of equality of education is a sham and destructive for the high achievers. If you had 4.0 in school and get a Bachelors in College you have basically as much worth as the guy who was getting stoned, partying, and having a good time in high school and college but just barely earned a degree. It is an insult to treat people equally in my opinion when we are inherently unequal.

Evolution would say natural selection, let the intelligent move on and leave the weakest links to die. So do not bring evolution into the discussion here.

The worst thing is I didn't send my kids to Public K-12 because they don't teach well enough. I sacrificed to send them to a private school. an accelerated education program that some colleges prefer this students over public schools because they are motivated to learn and know how to study.

The state should pay for higher education, I agree, but only for the ones colleges deem to be the most promising.

Therein lies your problem.

Varying degrees of intelligence will invariably fall back on social interaction or familial recognition. It is a social game and one thing that I have learned from the internet is that there are a lot of smart mofo's out there who don't give a rat's ass for one teacher's interpretation of a classic novel (despite comprehension of archaic english) and have turned a mite many clever phrase upon the context of the theme...meaning...people are smart. Formulated tests do not consider motivation, interest, or any real contextual reason to give a damn...in some cases...

Bush Jr was what, a c average? So Daddy bought him his educationamism? Ideology is fun but let's actually take a look at what has happened before we get all indignant about our beliefs...shall we?

What is the overall goal of the protests? What act of government are they trying to achieve?

Originally posted by Misoir
I agree with all of the 22 points except these; 3, 6, and 22.

Since when is education a human right? I recall that natural rights are inherent for all people, meaning that it is an independent thing which is separate from the operations of others. Education is a service, you do not have a right to any services, but you do have a right to be free to pursue an education.

edit on 9/29/2011 by Misoir because: (no reason given)

It is indeed a human right, you should brush up on your facts before you make claims. www.un.org...

By the way...if you cant find it hit CTRL + F and figure it out, have a nice day

Originally posted by Misoir

The state should pay for higher education, I agree, but only for the ones colleges deem to be the most promising. This filters out the less desirable from bogging down the worth of degrees. The whole notion of equality of education is a sham and destructive for the high achievers. If you had 4.0 in school and get a Bachelors in College you have basically as much worth as the guy who was getting stoned, partying, and having a good time in high school and college but just barely earned a degree. It is an insult to treat people equally in my opinion when we are inherently unequal.

We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
Thomas Jefferson

Misoir, you sound like one of the "traitorous elites" to me. I have worked and earned my way to 2 college degrees, I have served my country in peace and war, and I still agree with these protests. It has to start somewhere.

Originally posted by Screwed

Originally posted by Misoir
alienate Conservatives such as me.

There's the problem right there.
Maybe when you decide to do as these people have done and step outside of the mental prison you are in, you can begin to see that the only label which truely fits you is not "conservative" it is "Human".

You see youself as "A conservative" so that is all you will ever be.

"Ohhhh no, I am much more than that" you say.
"I am also a Christian".

Yup, another mind prison.

You are neither "Christian" nor "Conservative".
You are both, THE creation and the creatOR.
You have the ability to see beyond all of this if you should so choose.
But first, you must remove the shackles from your mind.

My soulmate

It is really interesting how some people say; i'm conservative or democrat, or whatever! And they love this. They love to be something else, something different. They love this game.

They don't understand that we are the same!

Originally posted by TheThirdAdam
I agree that our rights as defined in the bill of rights are very much worth fighting for, but let me ask you this: who stood up and fought against the patriot act?

Citizens for Democracy, many other consitutional rights groups, as well as many individuals, me included.

What about gun control laws being passed?

The NRA, many of those same constitutional rights groups, and again, me.

What about freedom of speech? I can think of quite a few things that could be said that could land someone in prison.

Quote me one thing, and then show proof that it can get you sent to prison.

When this thing turns into a riot that shuts down manhatton and the feds come in and put a stop to it and say no more protest, who's gonna stand up and say that can't take that right away?

Every American that believes that the ultimate law of our land is our Constitution.

Originally posted by Misoir
I agree with all of the 22 points except these; 3, 6, and 22.

I have to agree to this ... these items should be taken off the list. They are way out there in no no land ... the declaration already stated that they are free of "racial" attributes, keep it that way ... take these out.

Originally posted by TheThirdAdam
so you're okay with communism? that's what taking power from the elite and giving it to the people is all about...

So, you're telling us that Abraham Lincoln was a communist?

"Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.

But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate -- we can not consecrate -- we can not hallow -- this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth."
Abraham Lincoln...The Gettysburg Address

reply to post by sdcigarpig


sdcigarpig, I agree that they should have worded some of the demands differently, but the reason they are protesting Wall Street is because that is where the big banks/big money starts its occupation of our federal government.

The control can always be traced back to the money, and if you don't believe that our goverment (not necessarily individuals, but the government as a whole), isn't controlled by money, then you haven't been paying attention.

Originally posted by Flint2011
I was not pointing my comments at you so sorry if it sounded like I was saying you were violent. I have no issue with anyone sticking up for themselves by means of self defense. But is it self defense when you make choices that put you in a dangerous situation? We have to be accountable for what we do and support. TPTB like manipulating good and kind people this way and backing them into a corner and then controlling the outcome. Those are situations like I fear exists here regarding this movement that cause concern with me for my fellow human beings. It's prime pickens for Americans to get caught up with so much angst and passion for change that is real. I just hope I am wrong and that by some miracle no one gets hurt. I am not a conspiracy theorist at all and never claimed to be but it seems so obvious to me that Americans are being suckered into a volatile situation.

You could be right about people getting suckered in, but in order to make great change, there must be great risk. In order to take our country back from big money and big government we have to start somewhere. As long as forums like this exist and keep getting the word out about what is happening, the less likely it is that horrible things happen to good people.