Knesset to vote on annexing West Bank

Originally posted by Fromabove

The land belongs to Israel. They can take it if they want. It's their land.

The world will attempt to stop them and will invade Israel.

Jesus will return and the matter will then be settled forever.

because........

It's their land.

One small problem, jews DON"T believe in Jesus.
Get you facts straight.

Disillusioned if you think that jews will change their
religion to please you.
Pedophiles are accepted in israel so long as they are zionists;
while those that disagree by ethical grounds are banished. israel
is nothing but a lord to the flies.

reply to post by Lemon.Fresh

Oh, bull corn.

LOL sorry if this is off topic,I forgot to ask earlier. But what's bull corn?

There was no lie.

reply to post by Lemon.Fresh


There were at least two lies which I have exposed. I have also exposed some of your contradictions which you have failed to acknowledge. I would appreciate it if you read through the tread again and address some of my concerns. I have been polite and answered all your questions.

I even provided sources when asked to. I am still waiting on a response about me proving that there are restrictions on visitation even for families.

reply to post by Lemon.Fresh

So Palestinians are citizens of Israel, then?

Your own words.

One and a half million Arabs live in Israel, constituting about 20 percent of that country's population. They have the same rights as all other Israeli citizens.

Post history never lies.

This thread has been completely derailed as most threads critical of Israel are and CorruptionExposed you are partly to blame for being bated into an off-topic argument.

Lets look at the original content. I expect this bill to be rejected by the Knesset, however the fact that there are factions which have gained prevelance during Likuds reign which support illegal, counter-productive and dangerous (to both Israel and Palestine) actions. If Israel were to annex the West Bank it would be left with a few options.

1) No longer remain an Jewish state but rather a multi-ethnic or bi-ethnic state with a slight Jewish majority (which may shrink in the coming decade) and remain the only-democracy in the Middle East. In short remain a democratic but no longer a Jewish state

2) Act as a authoritarian dictatorship towards the Arab population and maintain the Jewish state.

3) Expel the Palestinians from the land and/or Slaughter the Palestinians

Essentially neither of the two are favourable to the Jewish people (save number 2 and 3 where some extremist, ultra-nationalist and far right wing individuals and groups would support such actions).

The other more pressing problem to Israel would be the wave of terrorism resulting from this annexations (which would have been brought by Israel onto itself), the wave of condemnation from the Arab world and the break down in already turbulent relations (which once again would be brought by Israel onto itself) and the wave of international condemnation and continued isolation in the international community (which once again would be Israels own doing). In fact not even America could support such despicable action.

Realist Zionists know the following and those Zionists actually concerned with the survival and maintanence would reject this bill and work to establish a two state solution and peace. That is the only way the Jewish people will survive and the only way that the Palestinians will be treated fairly and with dignity, somthing they have been desiring since 1948.

reply to post by Corruption Exposed

The Arabs are the ones looking for peace through peaceful measures.

Are you serious? How can you write this without laughing!? It is absurdly ironic.

Hamas? Al Aqsa brigades?? thousands of missiles raining down on Israels south and north?...... This is the arabs looking for peaceful measures?

Israel claims to have extended it's hand to the people of Palestine in the name of peace, but then slaps them cold in the face with the other hand by this announcement of the annexing of the West Bank as a retaliation for the peaceful steps Palestine has taken. Israel scared they will be pressured into forfeiting land while their actual plans are to steal more.

Annexation has always been a policy dear to the far right in Israel.

Meir Kahanes words still glow with prophetic foresight. He said the peace process would back fire. He said anything but annexing the westbank, gaza and ejecting the Arabs will be delaying the inevitable: the Arabs intend to destroy Israel.

This is why they rejected the state in '47. This is why they attacked the nascent Jewish state, just 3 years after th holocaust. This is why neither Hamas, the PLO-Fatah, or the PA acknowledges a jewish state...

It is so sickeningly #ing clear it is insane that anyone can keep insisting that israel play ball.

If someone told you it would be fine to play in a panther cage, would you do it? If you just saw the panther maul and eat someone before you, would you believe their claims of "the panther is peaceful"? You would be an insane person to think that.

In the above - the arab disavowal of the Jewish state and their rejection of a partition plan is the "panther eating someone before you". Israel has learned in a very hard way how completely insincere Arabs want peace. They dont want it. If Israel wants to survve she must act alone and trust in G-d. If she doesnt, Israel will be destroyed; either through a 'peace process', which will end up in Israel being broken down, piece by piece, through 'negotiations', or they will be baited into war. War is INEVITABLE. I agree so wholeheartedly with Kahanes blunt but clear premise: the Arabs believe in their hearts that Israel, Jerusalem and the temple mount is the property of the Waqf - which means Islam. It is the "heart of Dar Al Islam" as Muslims often say.

You use fictional biblical prophecy as justification for this reasoning which makes it even more difficult to reason with the likes of you.

What is the "fictional Biblical prophecy" that i used?

Reply to post by Corruption Exposed

PG slang for BS.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

reply to post by Corruption Exposed


In the hopes of quelling a seemingly non-constructive argument between you two, I'd like to point out that I think you are missing what Lemon.Fresh is saying.

He is differentiating between Palestinians and Arab Israelis. If you understand the distinction, I think he is factually correct.

That said, I think the annexation of the West Bank would be a bad move, one sure to inflame the troubles in that part of the world rather than ease them. I'm hoping the vote fails to pass, as the bloodshed over a such a tiny piece of land is beyond tragic. No simple answer to that situation, but certainly there are ways to mitigate the loss of life? If only cooler heads were in power.

reply to post by VariableConstant

That said, I think the annexation of the West Bank would be a bad move, one sure to inflame the troubles in that part of the world rather than ease them.

Unless the troubles in the westbank ie; with the Arabs, were an inherently unsolvable problem.

This is what Israel is dealing with with the Arabs. The Arabs rejected the original partition - in '38, and again in '47. Then they went to war against Israel, in '48, '67, and '73. Every war was not about 'freeing the palestinians' or establishing a state in the westbank and Gaza. Rather, it was over the Jewish presence of any size in the heart of the 'house of Islam'. This is how all the Arab leaders spoke before their wars with the Jews. Nasser, the arab league president and other major officials were fond of using the term "throwing the Jews into the sea".

This issue is so black and white the only reason people dont see it is because of the obfuscating influence of the mainstream media. Peace, is not a viable option when one side sees the Jews as invader infidels in the middle of the realm of Islam - and Arabic dominance, and on the other side, one group believes they have every right to the hold land - their ancient home and symbol of 'redemption'. Both sides fiercely defend their position and neither seem truly willing to compromises, and you know what? that seems to be the inevitable outcome of two differnent yet prominent traditions. Judaism is over 3500 years old and Islam has 1.3 billion adherents and growing. Both sides also believe that we are living in the end times - and there are ample omens to prove that.

War will finish the deal. I know this is not a popular idea but all the prophecies, beyond Judaism alone, speak of this. And the more i understand both positions, that of Islam (in association with other 'perennial' traditions) and that of Judaism, the more clear it becomes. The energies built up are completely enormous. There is messianic fervor in the air. Jews in Israel believe we stand on the verge of the 'end of days', and even their calendar, in its 5572 year, is meant to last no longer then 6000 years - when the 'messianic era' begins. Many believe we stand at the precipice of a major global shift, not only in consciousness, but in geopolitical realities. The world IS changing, and unfortunately for the pacifists out there, war, destruction and chaos is often its vehicle.

Dont look at it in a negative way. This war will come, and the victor takes all (literally. The holy land is seen as the 'microcosm' of creation. Hence, Muslims believe once they conquer Israel from the Jews, the world will fall at its feet. Likewise, Jews believe when they secure Israel, build their holy temple on the temple mount, the collective consciousness of mankind will be 'directed' towards kindness, compassion and monotheism)

reply to post by Corruption Exposed


Maybe we should look at the charter first of the PLO.PLO who in their charter calls for the destruction of Israel. Why would any nation who is really seeking peace and security with an enemy want to work for peace while they are working to wipe you off the map? This is what the UN wants Israel to do. I want you to read Article 15 of this PLO charter. in Article 15, the Arabic is translated as "the elimination of Zionism," whereas the correct translation is "the liquidation of the Zionist presence." "The Zionist presence" is a common Arabic euphemism for the State of Israel, so this clause in fact calls for the destruction of Israel, not just the end of Zionism. What hypocrite's we are telling Isreal to make peace and give back land they won from a war. I guess we should give the indian's back thier land we took from them as well.

reply to post by Lemon.Fresh


please give it up, you're been proven dishonest, and my neck is getting sore trying to read your crap

reply to post by dontreally


I want to stop you right there.

Hamas? Al Aqsa brigades?? thousands of missiles raining down on Israels south and north?...... This is the arabs looking for peaceful measures?

You act as if thousands are being launched weekly when even yearly they aren't. In fact this year only 173 rockets have been fired and 195 mortars which is a total of 368. This year there has been only one fatality from rocket and mortat attacks.

This is why neither Hamas, the PLO-Fatah, or the PA acknowledges a jewish state...

More smoke and mirrors. I have already shown you the letter from Yasser Arafat acknoleding Israels existence. In case you forgot here it is again.

September 9, 1993

Yitzhak Rabin

Prime Minister of Israel

Mr. Prime Minister,

The signing of the Declaration of Principles marks a new era in the history of the Middle East. In firm conviction thereof, I would like to confirm the following PLO commitments:

The PLO recognizes the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security.

The PLO accepts United Nations Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338.

The PLO commits itself to the Middle East peace process, and to a peaceful resolution of the conflict between the two sides and declares that all outstanding issues relating to permanent status will be resolved through negotiations.

The PLO considers that the signing of the Declaration of Principles constitutes a historic event, inaugurating a new epoch of peaceful coexistence, free from violence and all other acts which endanger peace and stability. Accordingly, the PLO renounces the use of terrorism and other acts of violence and will assume responsibility over all PLO elements and personnel in order to assure their compliance, prevent violations and discipline violators

In view of the promise of a new era and the signing of the Declaration of Principles and based on Palestinian acceptance of Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338, the PLO affirms that those articles of the Palestinian Covenant which deny Israel's right to exist, and the provisions of the Covenant which are inconsistent with the commitments of this letter are now inoperative and no longer valid. Consequently, the PLO undertakes to submit to the Palestinian National Council for formal approval the necessary changes in regard to the Palestinian Covenant.

Sincerely,

Yasser Arafat

Chairman

The Palestine Liberation Organization

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...

If Israel wants to survve she must act alone and trust in G-d. If she doesnt, Israel will be destroyed; either through a 'peace process', which will end up in Israel being broken down, piece by piece, through 'negotiations', or they will be baited into war.

This is why most sane people/politicians don't listen to religous folk when negotiating policy. If they did we might as well have remained living in the Middle Ages. Base policy around realism and facts on the ground not whatever diety you believe in.

He said anything but annexing the westbank, gaza and ejecting the Arabs will be delaying the inevitable: the Arabs intend to destroy Israel.

I saved this till last. It is just so despicable that I wanted to highlight it last. What kind of man of god supports the forced expolsion (which would likely result in the murder of many) Palestinians who in the end are people and are followers of the same narcisistic abrahamic religion Jews and Christians belong to. It is nice to see that you essentially support war crimes and crimes against humanity.

With that said I leave you with this quote:

For the record though I am not a deeply religious man, I am not fanatical about it in any sense... But I do study a lot about the history of religion which holds the key to many unanswered questions about the "procedure of speaking to God" which people have capitalized off of for centuries. In the end it is a tool that gives people the inspiration to free themselves or it is directly responsible for making them slaves and drones. – Immortal Technique

If you aren't bright enough to see it I am implying that you are the latter.

Putting aside the BULL CORN arguments in this thread

I personally have an issue with any state which refers to itself in religious context before anything else...

From what I have heard and read many times again and again, is that Israel wants recognition as being a JEWISH state. Surely to be recognised as that would suggest the countries leadership only cares about a JEWISH agenda.

Now before people claim me as being Anti-Semite here, please re-read what I have just wrote and tell me if its right to put a religious theme as higher in priority over the themes/needs of a countries people?

I have the same issue with countries who claim their country was based on christian history. Quite simply put, there is no direct proof of any religion full stop. Regardless of what any book/parchment/divine dream/burning bush may want us to believe. Until God (him/her/themself) comes down (if they exist in any shape and form) and actually trolls our to us what the &*^%in deal is, then really how stupid does the human race look???

History is littered with the murderous ideals of many a crazy man and woman. Land has changed hands so many times, and really who really owns anything???? Do I own the land upon which I pay my mortgage? I would suggest even though I am paying for a land I believe to be my own, its actually owned by bankers, local councils and then state and national governments... because it certainly seems some of those organisations have greater say and rights in it than I do.

If perhaps, we could start to separate states and religions, allowing the countries to run themselves for the good of the people (all people who live in a country, regardless of race/religion/cultural/historical heritage) and leave religion as something which people, decide upon, of their own choosing, then perhaps the world might actually start to function a bit better.

Yes rockets have been fired from the palistinian side, yes more rockets have been fired from Israels side, tit for tat, they have both been as bad as each other. But it's not the palistinians bulldozing the homes of Israeli citizens to make new homes for their own residents.

Sick and tired of hearing about the issues in the middle east... I am 31 years old and all of my life it has been an issue. Surely it doesn't take this long to resolve issues and work collectively toward a two state solution???

Seriously, when tf is the big event coming to wipe the world out lol... because the sheer stupidity of the human race on both sides is too much for my brain to cope with...

CONTROL, ALT and DELETE time for my mind

reply to post by Fromabove

The land belongs to Israel. They can take it if they want. It's their land.
The world will attempt to stop them and will invade Israel.
Jesus will return and the matter will then be settled forever.
because........
It's their land.

Jesus will return and settle scores with the Isaelis/Jews for rejecting him then and even to this day.
and christians who support Jesus rejecting jews while opposing muslims (who actually believe Jesus is the messiah) will have a lot of explaining to do.

reply to post by SpeachM1litant


OK, I thought I heard it all by now.

“ In fact this year only 173 rockets have been fired and 195 mortars which is a total of 368 “

ONLY ? Honestly, I don't even know how to respond to such hypocritical idiotic statement.
How would you like to feel what's it like to be under the attack of one mortar, one Grad rocket, under sniper fire while working your fields ?
That can easily be arranged. It will only cost you an airline ticket.

" This year there has been only one fatality from rocket and mortat attacks. “

thank god Israelis have an early warning system, an anti missiles system, and was smart enough to build bomb shelters for its people.

“More smoke and mirrors. I have already shown you the letter from Yasser Arafat acknoleding Israels existence. In case you forgot here it is again”

you have the audacity to speak of smoke and mirrors ? The PLO had never changed their Covenant calling for the destruction of Israel. They have never revised their “stages plan”. PLO and Hamas recently signed a reconciliation deal, while Hamas is openly calling for taking the land of Israel by means of war and the total liquidation of Israel.

Fatah Central Committee Member Abbas Zaki:
""The Greater Goal Cannot Be Accomplished in One Go"

www.memri.org...

Mahmud Abbas in his own words:
"We must maintain the way of the Shahid (Martyr) Daoud, who always believed in the struggle

www.palwatch.org...

more examples in the above link.

Abbas, a man of peace:

"If you want war, and if all of you will fight Israel, we are in favor. But the Palestinians will not fight alone because they don't have the ability to do it."

www.jihadwatch.org...

More gems from the Palestinian authority:

*PA depicts a world without Israel....
*Denying Israel's right to exist...
*Abbas and PA leaders attend Fatah performance presenting Israel as "Palestine"...
*Fatah official: Israel "is not worthy of having a homeland" or "a place on earth"
*Official PA daily refers to Israel as "the Interior occupied in 1948"

palwatch.org...

If that's the Palestinians idea of peace, I can't wait to see what happens when war breaks between the two.

reply to post by gravitational


dontreally claimed thousands of rockets are launched and I disupted this falsehood. I see no hypocrisy or idiocy in doing so. Of course you tend to support suppressing truth when it reveals negative aspects of Israel. However, that is another matter entirely.

The letter provided is the statement of recognition that dontreally denied existed in a previous thread and did so once again here.

If you want to play the quote game I can do the same:


"We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."

-- Moshe Dayan, April 1969, Ha'aretz; quoted in Edward Said, 'Zionism from the Standpoint of Its Victims', Social Text, Volume 1, 1979, 7-58.

"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist."
-- Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969.

"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!"
-- Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.

"[Israel will] create in the course of the next 10 or 20 years conditions which would attract natural and voluntary migration of the refugees from the Gaza Strip and the west Bank to Jordan. To achieve this we have to come to agreement with King Hussein and not with Yasser Arafat."
-- Yitzhak Rabin (a "Prince of Peace" by Clinton's standards), explaining his method of ethnically cleansing the occupied land without stirring a world outcry. (Quoted in David Shipler in the New York Times, 04/04/1983 citing Meir Cohen's remarks to the Knesset's foreign affairs and defense committee on March 16.)

"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."

-- Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25, 1982.

"The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized .... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever."
-- Menachem Begin, the day after the U.N. vote to partition Palestine.

Here is one of the most alarming statements

"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories."
-- Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, speaking to students at Bar Ilan University, from the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989.


"I would have joined a terrorist organization."
-- Ehud Barak's response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha'aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian.

"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."

-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.


"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.

"Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial."

-- Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 25 March, 2001 quoted in BBC News Online

reply to post by gravitational


And what's Israel's idea of peace??

Them owning ALL the land and Palestinians,what's left of them, lining up for rations before going back to their cells??

reply to post by SpeachM1litant


Yes, this thread has been derailed and I admit taking to taking the troll bait. In my defense, I am only human and this is a serious topic to me. I am also stubborn and cannot stand it when people lie so sometimes I feel obligated to correct their untrue remarks. I do thank you for jumping in with an on topic remark though

I can also understand your point of view. When you see a title of a thread that interests you and decide to read the thread, it can be disappointing when having to read through pages of pointless arguments that end up going off topic. We have all been there, I have also seen you take the bait in other threads.


The points you made about the available options for Israel were well explained

My first thought was about the possibility of retaliation by the Palestinians. If this bill were to be voted through and then implemented, the consequences would be unspeakable for the innocents of Palestine and Israel. I must admit that I do have trouble calling the Settlers as innocents. At the end of the day they know they are living on recently stolen land, but they are conditioned to think what they are doing is god's will so it is a very complicated situation.

I also see that you mentioned what a true Zionist would most likely want. I personally believe there are inner factions of the Zionist regime who are at war with each other. I think there is a power struggle and it is starting to show. The Zionist government may portray itself as strong and united but I think that this is far from true. I think the Zionists press for the two state solution because they know it can never be achieved. This perpetual cycle of unsuccessful "peace negotiations" plays right into Israel's hands. It allows them to appear that they seek peace, meanwhile they are actually seeking the opposite.