Should the world(China, Russia, EU etc)conduct a preemptive strike against US before it get too dang

Originally posted by Murcielago

MasterP
Most of your scientists are foreigners; most of your athletes are blacks; most of your workers are blacks and Mexicans; most of your service men are blacks;etc etc

Are you implying that a blacks arn't US citizens?

Also you for got one war wich the US didn't start but it did end it. When Sadaam tryied to consume Kuwait.

So? Some of the best people in this country are black, and mexican, and vietnamese, and russian, and chinese, and indian, and.....wait....Why do we have all these different races here in the U.S. ?


Oh yeah...most of the WANTED to be here...I LOVE the fact that we are not a monoculture. It makes you think about the world every time you walk down the street.

Actually, I think the list is pretty accurate. Would you care to point out which items you feel are lies and why? Certainly the US has much to be proud of as well, and it would be nice to see a list of the US's accomplishments, but I see nothing on the list I could call a lie, and very little I would even call a half-truth.

-koji K.

Well then you, or masterp, or someone that believes it, defend it. The list has no supporting sources or scholarly citations, nothing. I shouldn't have to refute wild claims like that, someone should have to defend them. If I take the time to look up stats, sholarly works, etc., they will just be ignored by people that want to believe what the believe. Imports on steel? I mean come on now what does that have to do with anything at hand? We have imports on steel to save our workers jobs, which I actually disagree with, but how is that anything but something to add bulk to a list? That's just number one. I'll just grab another as Kyoto. That thing was thouroughly flawed, through and through. So say ex-Clinton aides.

On and on could it go really...

Montana:

Point by point.....

Percieved by you perhaps, but can you really speak for the whole world?

I believe I can speak for the whole world far more than any American can. On the whole, your news is skewed, your knowledge of history is scant, and your perception of the rest of the world is simplistic. "They hate us for our freedoms", etc....

No county has a secure homeland. With the modes of rapid transit available today, an attack of any kind comes as a surprise for the most part.

The national interest statement IS used by every country in the world on a daily basis as justification for any action they might take. What's your point?

My point is that it can and will bite you in the butt. What Bush has done is waged a war without any UN approval, a war of aggression, a war of invasion. So what's good for you is good for the rest of the world.

Anybody who wants to invade their neighbor can say "Well we're sure 100% that they have WMDs aimed at us". Then after the invasion they don't even really need to find those weapons, they can just occupy. You did it, didn't you?

Good work.

If the nation of Iran felt they needed to attack in order to make themselves safe, then yes they would be justified. No question. However they would also have to deal with the consequences. Just like the US is doing now.

Seeing as how all the reasons to invade Iraq were based on lies, they are allowed to do the same, right? Pre-emptively attack you based on faulty intelligence and vague threats?

Seeking the UN's approval is a concept that has only been considered recently by anyone. Why would any nation need the UN's approval for anything? I don't live in the UN. The UN is not my government. I REALLY don't think the UN has my best interests in mind. Until the last few years, no one would have thought of asking the UN's permission to take a crap, let alone military action!

WHAT are you talking about. UN approval has been needed for "official"
wars for decades.

The UN is as good a representation of the "rest of the world" as we have. For you to snub your nose at them is a snub at the rest of the world.

Read some stuff about the UN, because your facts are way off. UN approval has been required for any country's military action for decades.

Not for the bad guys, of course. Saddam didn't ask the UN for permission to invade Kuwait.

So are you the good guys or the bad guys?

Re: Australia "we don't suffer fools easily. "

Yahoo Serious. We suffered him, but not much.


Re: The long list of USA wrongs.... we're the fattest too. Don't forget it!

Now, as to the topic at hand. I don't think anyone would consider a pre-emptive strike against us because we're still big players in the world community. Also because in any given 4 years, things can change drastically. Kerry wins, all this goes out the window. Kerry loses, Bush has 4 more years to try and recover from this past 4. Bush wins, then Cheney's up to bat! We have such a revolving door on leadership that we're not a real threat in the global nuclear way. Besides, lots goes on behind the scenes that we don't know and never will, no matter how much googling anyone does. Nobody's going to take the first swing at us. As Sr. would say... it's not prudent at this juncture.

Originally posted by shoo

Originally posted by masterp
The examples are countless, really. The US

1) puts taxes on imported steal
Just like people put import taxes on Silk , CARS, Guns , oh wait .. .and everything else you get out og anywhere ?/they even tax me and I am here in america.
2) puts taxes on imported agricultural products; let the poor countries die!
I think that I have already discussed this one .. oh yeah let the poor countries die .. well Israel is pretty poor .. But what we do for them ... ???
3) won't sign the Kyoto deal
No tsure what that is lol but I am sure we have a good reason lol ...
4) buys pollution percentage from smaller countries
Get the # where the # belongs what else to say ?
5) produces more than 50% of the world's weapons
This is just WRONG !!
6) consumes more than 25% of the world's oil
This IS WRONG ALSO .... VERY VERY VERY WRONG ... US is only country in world trying to research other engines and put them into play surrently. We have cars taht run off off electricity ... and besides all that .. WE PAY YOU GREAT MONEY FOR YOUR OIL without that you wouldn't be able to afford anything ... OH YEAH AND YOU TAX THE HELL OUTTa US
7) caused all major war activities in the last 30 years (vietnam, cyprus, iran-iraq, gulf war, bosnia, kosovo, iraq) and many others either directly or indirectlyThink that I ahve already hit this one ..
8) supports most dictatorships (pinoset, contras, saddam, indonesia, musaraf, greece 67-74, etc) and corrupted governments (saudi arabia, etc)
Not even sure what this is supposed to mean ?
9) 5% of its population has 90% of the world's wealth
Some people need to get on teh ball and start making effects on teh world .. we allow you to f---ing come here and get jobs HERE ... WE ALLOW YOU TO TAKE JOBS HERE ..... not even gogin to go any deeper in this .. I hate Immigrants ... that i see and they wearing Mexico stuff they wouldn't no more fight for US then they would suck their own .... Toe nail ..
10) one of the few countries that won't accept the international court of Justice in Hage
11) is the only country to have dropped an atomic weapon in war We Got BOMBED FIRST IDIOT @!!!!
12) has more than 36 poor people (living under the minimum wage)
Not sure what this is supposed to mean I mean for godness sake just freakin look at the rest of the world.
13) has the highest percentage of urban killings and rapes
Has the largest Urban Market in the world
14) has the largest amount of citizens with debts
15) has the highest number of citizens in jails relative to its population
16) has one of the highest percentages in school drop outs
17) has one of the lowest standards of education
18) has one of the largest differences in capital per head amongst the world
19) has armies in more than 120 countries worldwide
20) is one of the few countries that has a law that allows the government to put in jail one person without any accusation
21) has Guantanamo; violates global signed policies on human rights
22) demands 1 milion as deposit in order to participate in the elections
23) has the highest number of TV channels
24) has the highest number of school killings
25) the only country to have the privilege of kids passing through gun/metal detectors in schools

Really, what's so great about your country? that you can work at McDonald's for 1 dollar per hour? that you can buy a car, a stereo, a TV and a computer? that your kids go to school? Well, guess what: all these things are available in most countries, more or less. Tell me one thing that you can do in your country and I can't do in any other country.

Most of your scientists are foreigners; most of your athletes are blacks; most of your workers are blacks and Mexicans; most of your service men are blacks;etc etc

Not only that the list is inaccurate a similar list can be created for every other western country

And it's quite idiotic you nag about the fact that most sportsmen and scientists are foreigners. The USA are a country built out of many nations and they give scientists and sportsmen the very best standards for their career. Would be stupid not to go there, eh?
And it is not like the USA don't have "native" scientists and sportsmen that get a grip. Just passes by unnoticed.

I do not have time to refer to all the rest of thse how they are not true peace ..

You should have quoted it another way, people could think I actually wrote down that list

You know what really pisses me off? That I get those annoying messages from moderators for some of my posts and your "f***ing"-style is okay for them it must be the great unbiased objectvism that makes them act like that.

You are teh funniest guy/girl I have met on here yet ... =-) ...

What does that have to do with anything ... all of my friends are Black ... and I am white ... I play on a basketball team at San Jac ..... in Houston .. texas ... and I am only whtie person on the team .. You think my bros treat me different .. LMAO ... yeah they treat me so different you are ridiculous you know blacks who think that they are being .... well whatever they are claiming lol ... Lets see what would happen if there was a UNITED WHITE COLLGE FUND LMAO !!!! hahaha .. Yet, we still don't say anything much ..

My G*D man! You ARE an American!!!!!! You're from Canada, right? Canada is located on the continent of North America, isn't it? That's why I always use 'US' in my opinions not 'American'.

I really don't understand what makes you feel the UN has the authority to "authorize" anything. The UN is a place for the comunity of nations to gather and attempt to work out their differences in a peaceful way. Sometimes this doesn't work. It is also a place for the nations of the world to combine humanitarian efforts to improve living conditions on a world wide basis. It provides a place where nations can come together to discuss issues of a world wide interest in a neutral setting.

The UN is not now, nor has it EVER been a world government. I understand some people wish it were, but it isn't and never has been. That's your history, my friend. Perhaps we should read the UN charter. Haven't done that in a while, myself. (Although I WAS required to read it in that terrible, substandard US high school education I got. How 'bout yours?)

And you have a better grasp of history and world opinion simply because of where you live? What are they putting in your food? Gotta get me some of that!

A preemptive strijke against the US? Go ahead. We would take to the streets and repel anyone who attempted to invade our borders. I for one would grab my personal firearms and join a local militia if these types of things occured. It would be suicide for another country to attack us with nuclear weapons. There is more chance of a revolution then there is an invasion from overseas.

Now, what i find funny is that when ever I read a thread that is more that 3 pages, somehow all conversations start to veer fof to how bad the US is or "why don't you like black people' or all aliens are Jewish." THe question was not what the US has done in the past because there is not a nation listedin your question who has not commited an actsof inpropriety in the past.

We need to look at the future, and how to try to make sure there is never a pre-emptive strike. Seems like Red Dawn wasn't far off when you think off how many Chinese they could drop into Montana or Oregon. Thank god it is not yet that feasible for the Chinese to do this yet alone the Russians.

Originally posted by PistolPete
France commits atrocities, breaks UN sanctions, and basically does everything the world hates the US for but no one else seems to notice or give a damn. That's why France got what they got.

And strangely enough, France is also the country which was the most vocal against the war in Iraq - and Germany, Russia, Canada and a good number of African countries fell in line behind her. Geez, I wonder if that's the reason for all the France-bashing.

Because, you know, the best way to hide your pettiness against your enemy is to accuse him of pettiness. "Oh no, we're not angry at France because it disagreed with us and led other countries to disagree with us, we're righteously angry with it because it had links with Saddam."

Curiously, it reminds me of something else... "We're not angry at John Kerry because he's a serious threat to our re-election, we're righteously angry with him because he's a traitor and un-American and a coward, blablablah..."

The politics of ideas have gone down the drain. The politics of slander, whether against a person or an entire nation, have taken their place.

Vive la d�mocratie!

Interesting idea. You mean a strike if the US doesn't disarm or end its WMD program?

Originally posted by PistolPete

Actually, I think the list is pretty accurate. Would you care to point out which items you feel are lies and why? Certainly the US has much to be proud of as well, and it would be nice to see a list of the US's accomplishments, but I see nothing on the list I could call a lie, and very little I would even call a half-truth.

-koji K.

Well then you, or masterp, or someone that believes it, defend it. The list has no supporting sources or scholarly citations, nothing. I shouldn't have to refute wild claims like that, someone should have to defend them. If I take the time to look up stats, sholarly works, etc., they will just be ignored by people that want to believe what the believe. Imports on steel? I mean come on now what does that have to do with anything at hand? We have imports on steel to save our workers jobs, which I actually disagree with, but how is that anything but something to add bulk to a list? That's just number one. I'll just grab another as Kyoto. That thing was thouroughly flawed, through and through. So say ex-Clinton aides.

On and on could it go really...

well, i guess the list is kind of long to make any kind of debate about it practical. but the taxes on steel imports are significant because bush constantly accuses the EU of being protectionist, when the US has some of the most protectionist steel policies in the world. it's hypocritical, is all.

as for the other stuff, america does have one of the highest percentages of people in jail, at great expense to the taxpayer, debts are outrageous compared to Europe (I'm surprised there wasnt any mention of health costs in the lists), education rankings are always terrible compared to the rest of the world, we do produce and sell the majority of the worlds weapons, we have people in guantanamo bay detained without any rights whatsoever, let alone access to counsel, we've supported some pretty outrageous regimes in the name of fighting an idea... all these things should give any american pause to think a while and realize that maybe america isn't the be all and end all of countries after all, regardless of how good we are at waving the flag...

and i should just state, my reasons for saying this are simply because knowledge of a problem is the first step in solving it. it's not any personal vendetta i have against my own country.

-koji K.

[edit on 27-8-2004 by koji_K]

Originally posted by mad scientist

Originally posted by ShadowXIX
But it gets so cold in those countries

why cant a tropical country have the best standard of living

There is Northern Australia - the great barrier reef etc. Hey if your American you should come for a visit. Your dollar goes a long way here.

Australia sounds great I love scuda diving and the biggest coral reef on the planet is one of the places I plan to go some day. Plus I have heard nothing but good things about Australia from my friends that have already gone.

Whats with all the animals that can kill you down there? Im mean you got a jelly fish that can kill you (box jelly) The killer spider the (funnel web) the most venomous snake the (Fierce snake) theres a dam snail that can kill a human there. Then you guys have the well known killers like the salt water crocodile and great white shark.

seems like every animal is not something to mess with down there

Originally posted by koji_K

and i should just state, my reasons for saying this are simply because knowledge of a problem is the first step in solving it. it's not any personal vendetta i have against my own country.

-koji K.

Thats the best attitude to have about the whole thing. I would be interested to hear any ideas you might have to improve things.

Having had the opportunity to see a significant portion of the world and how things are there, I would be one of the first people to say there are problems with some of the ways the US does things. It is not the be-all and end-all by any stretch. And the way things change is for people to notice the problem and take action to change it.

However, I don't think there is a nation on the face of this planet that can say it has a perfect record as far as any of this is concerned. It really burns me when someone acts as though the US is the only nation that has, is, and will continue to act in this fashion. Come on folks, this is reality and yes it does suck sometimes.

Why live in a country you do not like? Isn't that living in hypocrisy? I do not agree with all of my countries foriegn policy but I love having the rights I have. We as a country sure do like our Wal-marts, SUV"s and Starbucks. If I lived in China or afghanistan or Iraq or even France, I would to be jealous of the overeating, over consuming American. Well, get used to it our get out of the way. This isthe road our gov't is taking. The degradation of our socitey is linked to the fact that we have become fat, lazy ,dependant and complacent. IF our country went to an AA meeting, we would accuse our goverenment of bieng our enabler.

I do not agree that a pre-emptive strike is correct, but it would wake us up again as 9/11 did. THere was such a show of Patriotism, but where are all those flag bought from Ebay now? I don't see them hanging anymore.
Bottom line is pre-emptive strike vs US = genocide.




[edit on 27-8-2004 by esdad71]

Originally posted by koji_K

and i should just state, my reasons for saying this are simply because knowledge of a problem is the first step in solving it. it's not any personal vendetta i have against my own country.

-koji K.

Fair enough, I agree with that. There were some things that were true in the list, but there were also a lot of things twisted to seem worse than they are, or something that they aren't. That's all. It's a tactic that I see used often in these type of debates. The whole idea that America has to be perfect in every aspect of life or we're failing miserably is a prevailing theme. That's not exactly fair. For all of our problems I still think this is a great nation, with great people, that can still do great things in the future, because of the foundation set by a few great men nearly 250 years ago.

No major power on earth doesn't have blood on it's hands, or internal problems that can be pointed to.