"gravitational redshift" in new galaxy cluster study results.

reply to post by XPLodER


When you ask frame of reference I immediately refer to everything as frame rate. Kept in context... Mass is left in bound states. As one perspective alters, so too does the measured object in relationship. We interpret red shift while peeking out at the cosmos. What would this indicate? The common denominator is flow. The background noise along with galactic clusters (including our own Milky Way) are pushed towards the same area. We're witnessing a bunch of wakes similar to this one.

where is the optical love? how can we ignore the optical while only looking at the gravitational? the intersting thing is optical physics and medium density refraction give the same results as the GR predictions the difference now is that we "know" space is not empty and gravity effects how densly packed the atoms are which influences refractivity and therfore lensing

Wait a moment. Isn't optical refraction frequency dependent(chromatic aberration) contrary to gravitational deflection?

Another important effect is refraction of the radio waves by the solar corona. Fortunately, this effect has a characteristic spectrum, whereas gravitational distortion is independent of wavelength. Thus, careful analysis, using measurements at several frequencies, can subtract this source of error.

en.wikipedia.org...
Deflection is measured for different frequencies to remove optical effects.

reply to post by Cryptonomicon


That is quite some intuituin you have there.

I have spent the last 30 years developing a new branch of math involving infinitely large one sided shapes. The work has led to a completely perfect unified field theory.

One interesting result is that light 'unfolds' as it travels and that its wavelength increases. I am preparing to publish, and it is not something that can be described either in a written language or in computational mathematics. I have had to develop a new logical language that is actually more similar to egyptian hieoglyphics, and it is very time intensive to publish for that reason.

That is my way of saying that I can't really discuss this in detail, but your intuition is right on. The work will be out for all to see next year. Till then...

Originally posted by XPLodER
why is it that we see more in the distant universe when we have forground objects?

you answered your own question, lensing by closer objects.

why is the line of sight to alot of distent galaxies "accross" the foreground galaxies?

because there are lots of galaxies? Like billions of them.

why is the optical properties of "denser" time space (optically denser) not implicated as part of the gravitational lensing dynamic?

I think you are confusing 2 different things.

Gravitational redshift applies to light originating from the massive object itself. The optical properties of the denser space-time are a factor when the source of light is the massive object itself.

When you are talking about more distant objects being lensed by gravity of foreground objects, the gravity of the foreground object doesn't add further redshift of significance to the more distant object. The more distant light is first blue shifted as it approaches the object, then is red-shifted back to it's previous wavelengths, so the two cancel each other out and you're left with a change in direction but not much if any change in frequency.

Here is a photo of gravitational lensing at work:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/c989478b2d72.png[/atsimg]
I added the red ellipses around the lensed objects, and arrows showing the direction of the massive object that's distorting the light of the more distant objects. They are probably ordinary shaped galaxies that have been stretched into partial "Einstein ring", or arc shapes. As this photo shows, they are passing a region of visibility outside the optical properties of the massive object itself (the galaxy cluster). So the optical properties of the galaxy cluster affect the light coming from the galaxy cluster, but it's the gravitational properties rather than the optical properties of the galaxy cluster, which affect the more distant light that's gravitationally distorted.

reply to post by XPLodER


Thanks for the update:

consevation of energy laws state that energy cannot be created or distroyed, so when light waves are traveling in intergalactic space (use a vacum for now) and they encounter a lens (higher concentration of atoms per area) the speed of the wave has to change to acount for the new medium (light travels faster in a vacum) so the light has to change amplitude and wavelength from the vacum to the new medium density to retain the same energy at the new speed.

I'm still considering space a loss less medium but surely when light passes through
another medium the speed can change due to the wave equation dependance on
the density of the medium. The amplitude and wavelength change mechanics are
new to me or I missed that class. The last optics class I had still considered light
going through a loss less medium as the professor answered one students question
as to why we see star light from so far away. Loss less medium had to be the only
answer for electrical phenomena. I think the action of the conservation of energy has
to be the new wrinkle I'm not familiar with.

Originally posted by moebius

where is the optical love? how can we ignore the optical while only looking at the gravitational? the intersting thing is optical physics and medium density refraction give the same results as the GR predictions the difference now is that we "know" space is not empty and gravity effects how densly packed the atoms are which influences refractivity and therfore lensing

Wait a moment. Isn't optical refraction frequency dependent(chromatic aberration) contrary to gravitational deflection?

the "compound" lenses that make each lens set help to remove aberation,
but what happens in a medium that has increasing optical density in corrilation with increasing gravity?
there is a relationship between "deflected" values (optical refraction) and gravity (gravitational influence)
and when the two effects are encountered in a progressive manner they are co-efficient in there effects.
this "smooths" out chomatic aberation

Another important effect is refraction of the radio waves by the solar corona. Fortunately, this effect has a characteristic spectrum, whereas gravitational distortion is independent of wavelength. Thus, careful analysis, using measurements at several frequencies, can subtract this source of error.

en.wikipedia.org...
Deflection is measured for different frequencies to remove optical effects.

optical refraction in combination with GR gives a much higher deflection ratio.......
xploder

Originally posted by Americanist
reply to post by XPLodER

 

When you ask frame of reference I immediately refer to everything as frame rate. Kept in context... Mass is left in bound states. As one perspective alters, so too does the measured object in relationship. We interpret red shift while peeking out at the cosmos. What would this indicate? The common denominator is flow. The background noise along with galactic clusters (including our own Milky Way) are pushed towards the same area. We're witnessing a bunch of wakes similar to this one.

i subscribe to the frame rate anolology well done
you have an interesting view of the universe have you ever thought about starting a thread on your ideas?
i would definatly read it

xploder

Originally posted by Melyanna
reply to post by Cryptonomicon

 

That is quite some intuituin you have there.

I have spent the last 30 years developing a new branch of math involving infinitely large one sided shapes. The work has led to a completely perfect unified field theory.

One interesting result is that light 'unfolds' as it travels and that its wavelength increases. I am preparing to publish, and it is not something that can be described either in a written language or in computational mathematics. I have had to develop a new logical language that is actually more similar to egyptian hieoglyphics, and it is very time intensive to publish for that reason.

That is my way of saying that I can't really discuss this in detail, but your intuition is right on. The work will be out for all to see next year. Till then...

sometimes the easyer path ahead is the one you make for yourself
good luck with publishing and please post on ats once you are accepted
xp

reply to post by Arbitrageur


a quote from the op

Gravity can also cause a redshift, as light emitted by a massive object is affected by the gravity of the object. The loss of energy from emitted photons shows up as a redshift commonly called a gravitational redshift.

source in op

so if gravity can also cause redshift,
and gravity gets stronger the closer you get to the source of gravity,
and stronger gravity means increasd optical density due to medium density increse (more atoms per square area)
and light travels from atom to atom in the "denser" medium differently than in the surrounding space.
this incresing gravity and increasing optical density go hand in hand in explaining an overall loss of energy and a change in wavelength/amplitude from the overall transition from exterior to interior to exterior.

one point to note is that i consider the various lens boundries to be a minute "modulating" factor to the transmition of light, each refining the wave form in a co operative way.

In electronics and telecommunications, modulation is the process of varying one or more properties of a high-frequency periodic waveform, called the carrier signal, with a modulating signal which typically contains information to be transmitted. This is done in a similar fashion to a musician modulating a tone (a periodic waveform) from a musical instrument by varying its volume, timing and pitch. The three key parameters of a periodic waveform are its amplitude ("volume"), its phase ("timing") and its frequency ("pitch"). Any of these properties can be modified in accordance with a low frequency signal to obtain the modulated signal. Typically a high-frequency sinusoid waveform is used as carrier signal, but a square wave pulse train may also be used.

source

in this way light is "modulated" as it travels through the medium and there is an acociated cost with modulation into and modulation out of the various boundaries (refracted % thermal % ) and thus has a small cost to wavelength and amplitude and the modulation cannot shift back to its original value.

the recent NASA release about 100 million mile wide "bubbles" in the outter heliosphere in the helio boundary,
it is "through" these "layers" that "progressive" modulation occours

when the modulation of the boundaries are in a medium density that progresivly gets more dense the closer to the center of gravity you get, you find a direct corrilation between gravity, density, and the transition of light through the material.

We could measure small differences in the redshift of the galaxies and see that the light from galaxies in the middle of a cluster had to ‘crawl’ out through the gravitational field, while it was easier for the light from the outlying galaxies to emerge.”

Going on to measure the total mass of each galaxy cluster, the team could then use the General Theory of Relativity to calculate the gravitational redshift for the differently placed individual galaxies. What emerged from the work was that the theoretical calculations of the gravitational redshift based on the General Theory of Relativity were in agreement with the astronomical observations. Says Wotjak:


“Our analysis of observations of galaxy clusters show[s] that the redshift of the light is proportionally offset in relation to the gravitational influence from the galaxy cluster’s gravity. In that way our observations confirm the theory of relativity.”

same source

so in this case the gravitational red shift is being calculated from a cluster and different amounts of redshift are seen depending on the distence to the center.

xploder

reply to post by Americanist


you might find this interesting

“By examining the positions of ancient groupings of stars, called globular clusters, we found that the clusters form a narrow plane around the Milky Way rather than being scattered across the sky,” Dr. Keller said.

“Furthermore, the Milky Way’s entourage of small satellites are seen to inhabit the same plane.

“What we have discovered is evidence for the cosmic thread that connects us to the vast expanse of the Universe.

“The filament of star clusters and small galaxies around the Milky Way is like the umbilical cord that fed our Galaxy during its youth.”

source

xploder

Originally posted by TeslaandLyne
reply to post by XPLodER

 

Thanks for the update:

consevation of energy laws state that energy cannot be created or distroyed, so when light waves are traveling in intergalactic space (use a vacum for now) and they encounter a lens (higher concentration of atoms per area) the speed of the wave has to change to acount for the new medium (light travels faster in a vacum) so the light has to change amplitude and wavelength from the vacum to the new medium density to retain the same energy at the new speed.

I'm still considering space a loss less medium but surely when light passes through
another medium the speed can change due to the wave equation dependance on
the density of the medium. The amplitude and wavelength change mechanics are
new to me or I missed that class. The last optics class I had still considered light
going through a loss less medium as the professor answered one students question
as to why we see star light from so far away. Loss less medium had to be the only
answer for electrical phenomena. I think the action of the conservation of energy has
to be the new wrinkle I'm not familiar with.

the new gravitational lensing of individual galaxies shows that galaxies are more "dense" than the surrounding intergalactic environment, but what is important to realise is that we are in a gravitational lensing galaxy.

and alot of what we look at is also surrounded by gravitational lenses.

so if the two lenses "interate" focally with each other, space can be seen as loss less.
but this is an implication of optics not that space is empty or a vacum ect

this is why we see stars from so far away


the amplitude wavelength mecanix was worked out by me xploder and i used it to predict the signature wavelength of gravitational lenses that use the (density lensing) type gravity lens.

there is no class on this subject because it is a new area of optics.
on earth there are no lenses with "gravity" at their centers for us to study so the mecanism is purely "a prediction" and is without mathmatical validation as i have no base line to calculate the acual values pre and post lens interaction.

but it does show that loss through the lens causes a change in wavelength/amplitude but the information encoded in the wave is preserved.

xploder

xploder

reply to post by XPLodER


I have to think about the Doppler shift now and then just to see how that works.
Blue light with a high frequency means the object travels toward us.
Unless its naturally blue star light.
Red light having a lower frequency means the object is going away from us.

The gravity effect on the conservation of energy on light's speed can bring on the
frequency and amplitude changes. Amplitude means strength or intensity.
Thats a fascinating concept.

I'm not that much into gravity and would probably say everything was due to
some electrical force even the optical gravity lens effect if I had to.