What is truth? Searching for reason and logic in a world dominated by faith

reply to post by WhatsHappenin666


I can to some extent vouch for IAM's existence. I owe him 30 silvercoins.

Concerning the validity of any religious teaching, this doesn't really depend much on historical 'facts', but on whatever message which can be gained from it and how that in itself can be 'proved/disproved', applicated, tested firsthand or whatever.

Non-religion/theism isn't necessarily anti-religion/theism, and in any case...... if both theists and non-theists can communicate with one 'official' (~public) foot in agnosticism and if none of them are invasive or monopoly-seeking, there shouldn't be a problem. Not even academically.

(PS I'm a non-theist).

Originally posted by bogomil
I can to some extent vouch for IAM's existence. I owe him 30 silvercoins.

Consider the debt paid in full my friend. No man owes me anything.

With Love,

Your Brother

reply to post by WhatsHappenin666


I attempted to explain things in simple terms in that other thread you spoke of... but you seemed to pass me by... So i'll make another attempt...

You want proof of his teachings? Understand Love... there in you will find proof of his teachings

Yes they are proveable...

Originally posted by WhatsHappenin666
reply to post by MissCoyote

 

I see! I have been studying astrology and how various religions and cultures used astrology and elements to describe origins of the world and how everything works.

Is that what the misguided, shills such as Jordan Maxwell have been teaching you? That whole Zeitgeist ideology was debunked some time ago. It's based on downright lies, misdirection, and manipulation of REAL historical facts. I suggest you do some homework and educate yourself on the allegations of the concepts of religion being based on astrology. Here's a video to get you started:

Debunking Jordan Maxwell The Movie

Virtually any scholar or historian worthy of the title would stake their careers that Jesus and Moses were actual, walking, talking, breathing, historical figures. If it's evidence you covet I suggest you do some digging. The information is out there. I'm not a fan of organized religion as I believe it was simply a tool devised to regiment a mass populace, but there is such a thing called Christianity and I promise you anyone worth calling themselves such would tell you it's not meant to be part of the concept of 'religion'.

reply to post by WhatsHappenin666


WhatsHappenin666,

I may have missed it, I'm tired. What will you accept as evidence? How much evidence do you need for proof? What instrument do you suggest we use to measure or record God, Jesus, Moses? Do you believe that Homer, the Greek poet, existed? What proof convinced you of that? An old writing with a name on it? A legend?

I'm willing to take you seriously, but I need a little more to see that I'm not chasing faeries. (Yes, I believe in them, I'm just too slow to chase them.)

Charles1952

reply to post by DanteMustDie

Is that what the misguided, shills such as Jordan Maxwell have been teaching you? That whole Zeitgeist ideology was debunked some time ago.

Not at all. In fact I never watched any Zeitgeist films or used this individual as a source? So, how can I be misguided? My sources never used him either.

I suggest you do some homework and educate yourself on the allegations of the concepts of religion being based on astrology.

I suggest you do some homework and educate yourself on the allegations of the concepts of religion being based on astrology.

What do you think I'm doing? Do you believe I'm going to the wrong sources because they make Jesus a fictional figure?

Virtually any scholar or historian worthy of the title would stake their careers that Jesus and Moses were actual, walking, talking, breathing, historical figures. If it's evidence you covet I suggest you do some digging. The information is out there.

Then where is the evidence? Where is it? You asked to be search on my own and you offer the evidence. I believe you should present your sources and see how factual they are and legit.
I do not see evidence for Moses or Jesus of any shape or forum. Where is it? Make believe land or la, la, la land.

I'm not a fan of organized religion as I believe it was simply a tool devised to regiment a mass populace, but there is such a thing called Christianity and I promise you anyone worth calling themselves such would tell you it's not meant to be part of the concept of 'religion'.

Really now? What's the difference between the Christian "religion" and the other "religions?" I have heard many, many Christians make many bizarre claims. One of these is constant. We're not religious or that Christianity is based on works. Let's see the definition of religion:Webster defines religion as:

Definition of RELIGION 1 a : the state of a religious b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance 2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices 3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness 4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

Dictionary will side with Webster:

1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs. 2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion. 3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions. 4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion. 5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.

Source
Source

From what I see you're religious, A Christian, and a user on ATS. haha. As I mentioned before I'm looking for evidence to the life of these figures.

reply to post by charles1952


Evidence. Like evidence at a crime scene or something documenting their births, lives, and deaths. Think about it. If there was a Moses at a time when Ancient Egyptian empire was at it's highest then Moses would have been mentioned. Of course in the bible the Pharaoh is not named but is widely believe to be Ramses II. Which is why I mentioned that Egypt was at it's highest. Because you couldn't have no mention of Moses or the Exodus of the Jews. I always wonder if history repeats it's self or that myth's repeat themselves.

There is a parallel myth that preceded the Bible, and probably the source for Moses’ origin. Cuneiform texts say this about King Sargon of Akkad, about 2360 BCE. “I am Sargon, the powerful king, the king of Akkad. My mother was an Enitu priestees, I did not know any father . . . . My mother conceived me and bore me in secret. She put me in a little box made of reeds, sealing its lid with pitch. She put me in the river. . . . The river carried me away and brought me to Akki the drawer of water. Akki the drawer of water adopted me and brought me up as his son.

Source

Sargon of Akkad (also known as Sargon the Great and Sarru-Kan, meaning 'True King’) reigned in Mesopotamia from 2334 to 2279 BCE. He is equally famous today as the father of the great poet-priestess Enheduanna. He was born as an illegitimate son of a temple priestess of the goddess Innana and, according to the Sargon Legend (a cuneiform clay tablet purporting to be his biography) was set adrift by her in a basket on the Euphrates River where he was found by a man named Akki who was a gardener, perhaps in the Kingdom of Kish. He followed in his father’s trade and somehow became appointed Cup Bearer to Ur-Zababa, the King of Kish, who sent him to Lugalzagesi of Uruk, whom Sargon promptly overthrew. He then conquered Kish, became king and founded the city of Akkad (Agade). Sargon conquered the dominant Sumerians to forge the first great Semitic kingdom, the Akkadian Empire. His story was long known throughout Mesopotamia and he was considered the greatest man who had ever lived, celebrated in glorious tales down through the Persian Empire.

Additional source

Once you see the similarities you began to wonder Is Moses based of Sargon and probably other figures?

reply to post by WhatsHappenin666

Then where is the evidence? Where is it? You asked to be search on my own and you offer the evidence. I believe you should present your sources and see how factual they are and legit. I do not see evidence for Moses or Jesus of any shape or forum. Where is it? Make believe land or la, la, la land.

I'm creating a thread about this topic. Keep an eye out for it. I hope it will be evidential enough for you. Here's a link to look over for the time being. Source

Really now? What's the difference between the Christian "religion" and the other "religions?" I have heard many, many Christians make many bizarre claims. One of these is constant. We're not religious or that Christianity is based on works.

To answer that, I'm going to use a quote of mine from another thread.

There's a fine line between religious Christians [who I refer to as Sunday Christians] and spiritual Christians. I understand how easy it is for that line to be blurred as it seems there are more religious nuts. These Sunday Christians are just hypocrites; quick to cast judgment onto others yet continue to live in sin and contradict the very words they preach. These people sport the cross like a fashion statement, wear a cloak of Christianity for a sense of superiority, practice their faith for two hours one day out of the week, attend services to maintain a status, condemn others and forcefully shove their beliefs upon them. These are not genuine Christians, but carbon copies. They do more harm than good. I do not condone organized religion. In fact, it pisses me off that every person with the label 'Christian' falls into the religious category.

I do believe the idea of religion is a conspiracy. It wasn't just implemented to control societies and charge them usury for profit, but to replicate true spiritualism into a generic, shallow, self idolizing concept. These anti-Christians aren't serving God; they are only serving themselves and their self fulfilling prophesies. The real ideology of Christianity has become so warped and twisted, people such as the OP are ashamed to call themselves by the name.

I do no not gallivant down the streets shouting scripture, throwing the Bible at peoples face, and condemning others to Hell. I show the door and move on. It's not my job to save the world. Be happy, love others, and spread Peace. It's not always easy, but damn simple.

reply to post by DanteMustDie


I will look into the website you have linked and wait for your thread. On the quote you use though I just do not see there are true believers or people who sheep in wolf's clothing. To me it's religion. I cannot complain when this individual is involved in a group who is consider a cult. Everyone has their own beliefs and views on the world. With religion like Judaism it is hard to understand the time period and everything else. You side with the group that makes more sense to you. Do you agree with my comment?

reply to post by WhatsHappenin666

To an extent. I believe the term 'religion' has become unconfined to the literal definition. It's too political.

There is a law of non contradiction: A cannon be A and non-A at the same time in the same sense.

Christian derives from the Greek word "Christo" which means 'anointed one' or 'follower of Christ'. The phrase was coined by the pagans of Antioch as a contemptuous nickname to describe the people who walked, talked, acted, and believed in Jesus.

"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men but of God". Romans 2:28-29

If Sunday Christians cannot practice what they preach, they are hypocrites and contradict their own belief system. Therefore, they cannot call themselves Christians, by definition, if they can't follow in it's teachings.

So technically, it would be fair to say I'm not a Jew, a Pagan, or a Christian. I'm just Dante. Nothing more, nothing less. Would you agree?

reply to post by DanteMustDie

To an extent. I believe the term 'religion' has become unconfined to the literal definition. It's too political.

To me everything is poltics. I cannot deny my nature of life for some religion that has much more incommon with myths then historic facts.

Christian derives from the Greek word "Christo" which means 'anointed one' or 'follower of Christ'. The phrase was coined by the pagans of Antioch as a contemptuous nickname to describe the people who walked, talked, acted, and believed in Jesus.

Are your presenting this comment as a way to make the word "Christian" as a deragtuory term?

"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men but of God". Romans 2:28-29

Random bible verse? I'm not a big fan of the bible. A verse can be used any shape or forum.

If Sunday Christians cannot practice what they preach, they are hypocrites and contradict their own belief system. Therefore, they cannot call themselves Christians, by definition, if they can't follow in it's teachings.

What techings of Jesus are you talking about? There are many teachings by Jesus as described in the Christian bible that go against peace, human nature, and everything else about man in general.

evil bible list

There have times I discuessed with Christians the seriousness of the bible and what the times God, Jesus, or even other faiths have killed people and animals. They'll say parables or that God is looking out manking or some other bull# like that. My question to you is God all loving and all knowing? Do you know what you preach and what you believe? Why accept the bible coming from every angle.
Noah's Ark

That great diluvial catastrophe, which killed every living thing on earth except for a boatload of animals, gets my vote as the biggest whopper and the most horrific story in the Bible. As obviously impossible as such a catastrophe is, there are still believers who accept this as an historical fact. Bible thumpers are so hung up on this infallibility claim that they won’t deny anything, no matter how absurd. They imagine cute little giraffes walking up a ramp into this little boat followed by pacific lions. They see a little wooden ship bouncing helplessly about in the storm. When the flood is over they see two doves flying to greet Noah. They can’t see the millions of women, children and animals struggling in vain to hold on to the air in their lungs. They don’t know what it feels like to have water rush into their lungs. Such thoughts are too violent to fit into their concept of a loving God.

So technically, it would be fair to say I'm not a Jew, a Pagan, or a Christian. I'm just Dante. Nothing more, nothing less. Would you agree?

If you identify yourself as a follower of Jesus then I guess you are a Christian. You do not have to go to church to be a Christian. But follow Jesus as described in the Christian bible.

reply to post by WhatsHappenin666


So you're going to ignore my post again eh...

So be it..

reply to post by Akragon


Love? Did I just read you clearly? Undertand love and then I will be able to understand Jesus? That doesn't make sense at all! I can say the same about Mao Zedong and Joesph Stalin. When you look at the real Jesus you will see that Jesus was a very evil character. What happned to this Jesus? When did Jesus became a White man, a hippy, with perfect shiny theeth? Where is the Jesus who preached violence and death on mankind for not beliving in him? Where is that jesus? What happned to that Jesus?

A collection of passages of Jesus' temper tantrums shows that he was anything but kind and loving. He was an immature jerk and a petty tyrant.

If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. (John 15:6)

When judgment day comes the angels will separate the evil from the righteous and make them suffer in fiery hell. 49"So it will be at the close of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous, 50and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth." (Matt. 13:49-50)

Better to cut off your body parts that cause you to sin than to be thrown into the fiery hell. 8And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better for you to enter life maimed or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire. 9And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire. (Matt. 18:8-9, Mark 9:43-47)

Jesus appointed seventy men to go preaching from town to town. They were instructed to curse the towns if they weren't well received. 10But whenever you enter a town and they do not receive you, go into its streets and say, 11'Even the dust of your town that clings to our feet, we wipe off against you; nevertheless know this, that the kingdom of God has come near.' 12I tell you, it shall be more tolerable on that day for Sodom than for that town. 13"Woe to you, Chorazin woe to you, Beth-saida! for if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. 14But it shall be more tolerable in the judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you. 15And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You shall be brought down to Hades. 16"He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me." (Luke 10:10-16) A Pharisee was astonished to see tha

He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. (Mark 16:16)

2And he answered them, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered thus? 3I tell you, No; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. (Luke 13:2-3)

But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them before me.'" (Luke 19:27)

With these verses people will shocked and believers will deny these verses. Saying My god will never hate anyone or be willing to condem anyone. I guess being a follow of blind-faith really is slavery and that Jesus is an awesome god after all.

Blasphemers will not be forgiven when the time comes. 31Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. (Matt. 12:31-32)

Source

reply to post by Akragon


No, I just replied comment!
Comment!

reply to post by WhatsHappenin666

Love? Did I just read you clearly? Undertand love and then I will be able to understand Jesus? That doesn't make sense at all!

Quite clearly... but im sure you do not understand. Which is why i make the statement... understand love, and you will understand his teachings.

I can say the same about Mao Zedong and Joesph Stalin.

You could, but why would you?

When you look at the real Jesus you will see that Jesus was a very evil character.

The real Jesus according to what website?

What happned to this Jesus?

Never heard of him...

When did Jesus became a White man, a hippy, with perfect shiny theeth?

He wasn't any of those actually... If you read his words or at least what is written about what he said, you would understand this. What you're claiming is simply propaganda

Where is the Jesus who preached violence and death on mankind for not beliving in him? Where is that jesus? What happned to that Jesus?

Again, what website are you getting this information from... Nothing like that is spoken of in any scripture, be it the bible or the gnostics or otherwise.

A collection of passages of Jesus' temper tantrums shows that he was anything but kind and loving. He was an immature jerk and a petty tyrant

See what i mean... why do you attempt to learn about someone from a website that slanders said person? Is that logical?

If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. (John 15:6)

That is called a parable... again something you won't understand, and i won't bother explaining it to you either, why waste my time?

When judgment day comes the angels will separate the evil from the righteous and make them suffer in fiery hell. 49"So it will be at the close of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous, 50and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth." (Matt. 13:49-50)

The parable of the wheat and the tares... again... don't bother with it, you won't understand

Better to cut off your body parts that cause you to sin than to be thrown into the fiery hell. 8And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better for you to enter life maimed or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire. 9And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.

That does not mean what you think it does... it means have no hate in your life. Hate benefits nothing and hurts only yourself. NO it doesn't mean you should hack parts of your body off...

(Luke 10:10-16) you quoted...

read what the message was that he asked them to preach onto these cities... peace and love... and those who do not believe in that message... will be reborn into this world, which can be hellish... but again learn what "hell" actually was in the bible... its not what you think.

He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. (Mark 16:16)

Baptism is purely ritualistic symbolism, and means simply "one that follows his teachings" just because someone dunks your head in water do you really believe it makes you any better?

2And he answered them, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered thus? 3I tell you, No; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. (Luke 13:2-3)

Meaning no one is above another... and the fact is everyone will eventually perish... but if you do not believe the spirit within you exists... Well it is said you create your own universe... If you believe when you die, that is it...nothingness... Perhaps that might just happen.

But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them before me.'" (Luke 19:27)

Again another parable...

With these verses people will shocked and believers will deny these verses. Saying My god will never hate anyone or be willing to condem anyone. I guess being a follow of blind-faith really is slavery and that Jesus is an awesome god after all.

Jesus was not God...

Matt. 12:31-32 that you quoted... Heres the key to that passage...

but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven...

As i just said... Believe the spirit does not exist, and perhaps once you die.... it no longer will.

And again like i said, try to learn about the bible from the bible, not from a website.

Originally posted by WhatsHappenin666
reply to post by Akragon

 

No, I just replied comment!
Comment!

Happily...

Questions? Comments? Insults?

i don't mind really...

reply to post by Akragon

Quite clearly... but im sure you do not understand. Which is why i make the statement... understand love, and you will understand his teachings.

Then what about the other verses I listed? What about the ones which are critical of people who do not follow his teachings and telling them they will go to hell. What kind of love it that? Sounds like you're hyporcrite who doesn't understand that you're white washing what you want to believe to make it true.

You could, but why would you?

Yes, I can. Look at Mao today and what you read on the horrors of his life. Mao was not perfect but he is looked at as one of the founding fathers of China. How you do not love him as much as Jesus. What is the difference?

The real Jesus according to what website?

Doesn't matter if it comes from a website or not. Jesus is Jesus everyone has a different view on Jesus. Seeing that you're a Christian I presented verses from the Christian bible which speak of evil against mankind.

Never heard of him...

"sigh"

He wasn't any of those actually... If you read his words or at least what is written about what he said, you would understand this. What you're claiming is simply propaganda

I can say the same for you. Are you questioning Jesus and what the so called teachings you follow. You're so quick to to say my sources are lies and propganda in making Jesus as the bad guy. You don't really believe Jesus is all love and kidness do you now?

Again, what website are you getting this information from... Nothing like that is spoken of in any scripture, be it the bible or the gnostics or otherwise.

Sigh! Yes you do! Like billions of Christians before you in your life as a Christian. You're made to believe Jesus is all loving and forgiving. Now do not give me that old comment that it's the old testement or only the laws apply for the Jews. Clearly you haven't study what you believe and act like this what mankind needs in a mythological figure.

Infidels and Gays Should Die So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)

Clearly Jesus is an all loving God of punishment. Kind of like of serial killer.

See what i mean... why do you attempt to learn about someone from a website that slanders said person? Is that logical?

The author used this quote to refer to the evil's of the bible and teachings of Jesus.

Don't you just love how Chrstians explain away all of Jsus nastiness and sins (like stealing) by saying "it is a parable" or some such?

That is called a parable... again something you won't understand, and i won't bother explaining it to you either, why waste my time?

Don't you just love how Chrstians explain away all of Jsus nastiness and sins (like stealing) by saying "it is a parable" or some such?

The parable of the wheat and the tares... again... don't bother with it, you won't understand

It's a parable. It's not a real teaching. This has to be the most ridicolus belief out there. We can go on and on about this. But in the end I will be proven correct because non of the figures in the bible are true or should there teachings be praticed. Let me ask you would you kill someone because they do not follow condmandments from God? Would you?

reply to post by Akragon


I could carless Christian. From what I have seen non of you can prove that Jesus exist, moses exist or any other. What you believe is total crap.

Originally posted by WhatsHappenin666
reply to post by Akragon

 

I could carless Christian. From what I have seen non of you can prove that Jesus exist, moses exist or any other. What you believe is total crap.

Im Not a christian... for one..

And guess what... the feeling is mutual. I could care less what you believe, and i don't need to prove anything to you or anyone else though as i've said his teachings are proveable.

The only thing you've shown to me is ignorance, disrespect... and a closed mind. Not to mention total lack of comprehension.... but again... like i care.

So believe whatever you will... i only offered answers to your pathetic cherry picking... Sorry you don't understand that

reply to post by Akragon


Sounds like you should get better morals. Because you're showing strong judgment toward me. What would Jesus do? Love? haha! Don't make me laugh. You're a perfect example of blind-faith. why won't god heal amputees? Why not? Care to answer Christian who cheery picks and can't offer proof to Jesus.