Duality. The Result of Spiritual War? Is Unity A Deception?

reply to post by smithjustinb


there is a place beyond duality...where everything just is
where you don't attach a label, where you don't attach good/bad, light/dark, white/black - it just is - nothing more nothing less
it's accepting something for what it is - not because we have a judgement on it from past experiences
everything is exactly how it's supposed to be - just because i want to attach something like a word to label it doesn't change it's essence

my outlook on things come from a place where i believe we chart out our experiences before we get here - so i can see we are all one - we are working together - we are equals as human beings
equal means just that - nothing you can do, say, think, feel should change it
i KNOW within i am not "better" than anyone but i am fortunate enough to KNOW within that no one is "better" than me - we are all human beings no matter what we say, do, feel, think

Just Be - nothing more nothing less

reply to post by Student X

I agree. Evil is your guideline and bumper. Without it we would have no direction toward the good and right path.

reply to post by smithjustinb

Not duality - differentiation and reintegration as an ever evolving process, of growth. Duality leads to separation, and ultimately to delusion and destruction. Only a devil would have us believe in the neccessity of evil, or of an equal and opposite power, to God, that's absurd!

Unity in diversity!

reply to post by seagrass

To be good, truly good, we can only be good for goodness' sake, not not to not be bad, that's absurd!

Originally posted by smithjustinb
I have come to unity, and I fear it.

That's a rather strange statement. It's like saying: "The sun shine and I fear it.".

Originally posted by D1ss1dent

Originally posted by smithjustinb
I have come to unity, and I fear it.

That's a rather strange statement. It's like saying: "The sun shine and I fear it.".

edit on 28-9-2011 by D1ss1dent because: (no reason given)

It's not all that strange. After all the Sun might be scary to someone who just emerged from a lifetime in Plato's cave. Their skin easily burned, their eyes easily squint shut in pain.

Originally posted by D1ss1dent

Originally posted by smithjustinb
I have come to unity, and I fear it.

That's a rather strange statement. It's like saying: "The sun shine and I fear it.".

edit on 28-9-2011 by D1ss1dent because: (no reason given)

I fear unity simply due to the possibility of it being a demonic deception.

Of course it makes sense that if all is one, that means there is no reason to do any harm to anyone or anything, and that should be reassuring, but then I think that by accepting all as self, you are also accepting evil into your life in a grand way.

Originally posted by InshaAllah

Originally posted by Frira

Originally posted by Astar316
Duality is the deception! There is no good or evil! There is no wrong and no right, it's all depending on your perspective!
If your girlfriend screws you, it'll hurt you and you may think it is all wrong, but in the end, maybe she loves the other guy and if one decides out of love, how could it be wrong?!

I see. So, from a reasonable point of view, the woman who kidnapped two children and tortured them-- that was neither good nor evil? And so we need do nothing?

You are as dangerous as that woman-- dangerous by your complacency and lack of empathy. You are also a dime a dozen.

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Im not implying that kidnapping is wrong nor torture or murder for example. it all comes down to perspective.
So yes neither is right or wrong it simply is.

per the urantia book

The possibility of evil is necessary to moral choosing, but not the actuality thereof. A shadow is only relatively real. Actual evil is not necessary as a personal experience. Potential evil acts equally well as a decision stimulus in the realms of moral progress on the lower levels of spiritual development. Evil becomes a reality of personal experience only when a moral mind makes evil its choice.

Intent and any source of intent cannot be ignored, and if ignored, does not excuse inaction.

Intent to destroy that which is, but which does no harm, has no purpose-- it is simply to destroy that which is.

So the philosophy now dissolves into that which is, is; and that which destroys, is; and that which is no longer, is no longer. All of which translates into "nothing matters." And if nothing matters than human existence does not matter.

If that is true...
... then you defy your own philosophy by the act of attempting to persuade others of your philosophy. Which, of course, all persons holding your philosophy will do, because their philosophy matters to them.

Sounds like excusing oneself from ones humanity: "I want what I want, but what you has no substance." Can you see how easily wars can take place to battle such aloof inaction?

Did I miss something?

reply to post by smithjustinb


I think that Duality is the illusion. There is no good or evil.

The whole concept of equal and opposite reaction is a human made one and therefore arbitrary. There are only cycles within the whole.

reply to post by smithjustinb


This may help you to see there is no demons.
youtu.be...

Namaste.

Originally posted by Frira

Originally posted by InshaAllah

Originally posted by Frira

Originally posted by Astar316
Duality is the deception! There is no good or evil! There is no wrong and no right, it's all depending on your perspective!
If your girlfriend screws you, it'll hurt you and you may think it is all wrong, but in the end, maybe she loves the other guy and if one decides out of love, how could it be wrong?!

I see. So, from a reasonable point of view, the woman who kidnapped two children and tortured them-- that was neither good nor evil? And so we need do nothing?

You are as dangerous as that woman-- dangerous by your complacency and lack of empathy. You are also a dime a dozen.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------
Im not implying that kidnapping is wrong nor torture or murder for example. it all comes down to perspective.
So yes neither is right or wrong it simply is.

per the urantia book

The possibility of evil is necessary to moral choosing, but not the actuality thereof. A shadow is only relatively real. Actual evil is not necessary as a personal experience. Potential evil acts equally well as a decision stimulus in the realms of moral progress on the lower levels of spiritual development. Evil becomes a reality of personal experience only when a moral mind makes evil its choice.

Intent and any source of intent cannot be ignored, and if ignored, does not excuse inaction.

Intent to destroy that which is, but which does no harm, has no purpose-- it is simply to destroy that which is.

So the philosophy now dissolves into that which is, is; and that which destroys, is; and that which is no longer, is no longer. All of which translates into "nothing matters." And if nothing matters than human existence does not matter.

If that is true...
... then you defy your own philosophy by the act of attempting to persuade others of your philosophy. Which, of course, all persons holding your philosophy will do, because their philosophy matters to them.

Sounds like excusing oneself from ones humanity: "I want what I want, but what you has no substance." Can you see how easily wars can take place to battle such aloof inaction?

Did I miss someth
ing?

ok 1st things 1st, in responses to the thread tile is unity a deception: my answer is no unity is real.

but then things started to go off into good and evil so i responded to that....

so yes i do believe nothing does matter unless it does matter. sound a little confusing, it is.

to me human existence does not matter untill it does. are you following me still?

its all about perception. nothing means nothing except the meaning we give it.

that applies to life as well and humanity. a new bmw means nothing to the rich kid who just recieved it as a gift. but it means everything to the poor man down the road who haves to walk 3 miles to get to the grocery store and then walk back home another 3 miles with said groceries. after a while guy cant walk cause his feet hurt so bad he now has no way to get groceries. adding to his plight.

to the rich young man all it means to him is a status symbol its not a way to get to the grocery store and get food home. to the rich young man he now has something to put his shiny new big rims on.

so no my philosophy does not dissapate but rather grows to encompasses all. i do not try to push this on no one but when i see the right moment to debate this with someone im on it.

Sounds like excusing oneself from ones humanity: "I want what I want, but what you has no substance." Can you see how easily wars can take place to battle such aloof inaction?

i understand your argument to me wars and spiritual decadence based of the individual, we all choose to be who we are, and are constantly deciding that in every moment in life.

The following is from "The Urantia book" this is jesus debating good and evil with his followers and is one of my favorite passages from the book. please take the time to read and we can take it from there.

From the urantia book paper 132:

2. Good and Evil (1457.4) 132:2.1 Mardus was the acknowledged leader of the Cynics of Rome, and he became a great friend of the scribe of Damascus. Day after day he conversed with Jesus, and night upon night he listened to his supernal teaching. Among the more important discussions with Mardus was the one designed to answer this sincere Cynic’s question about good and evil. In substance, and in twentieth-century phraseology, Jesus said:
(1457.5) 132:2.2 My brother, good and evil are merely words symbolizing relative levels of human comprehension of the observable universe. If you are ethically lazy and socially indifferent, you can take as your standard of good the current social usages. If you are spiritually indolent and morally unprogressive, you may take as your standards of good the religious practices and traditions of your contemporaries. But the soul that survives time and emerges into eternity must make a living and personal choice between good and evil as they are determined by the true values of the spiritual standards established by the divine spirit which the Father in heaven has sent to dwell within the heart of man. This indwelling spirit is the standard of personality survival.
(1457.6) 132:2.3 Goodness, like truth, is always relative and unfailingly evil-contrasted. It is the perception of these qualities of goodness and truth that enables the evolving souls of men to make those personal decisions of choice which are essential to eternal survival.
(1458.1) 132:2.4 The spiritually blind individual who logically follows scientific dictation, social usage, and religious dogma stands in grave danger of sacrificing his moral freedom and losing his spiritual liberty. Such a soul is destined to become an intellectual parrot, a social automaton, and a slave to religious authority.
(1458.2) 132:2.5 Goodness is always growing toward new levels of the increasing liberty of moral self-realization and spiritual personality attainment — the discovery of, and identification with, the indwelling Adjuster. An experience is good when it heightens the appreciation of beauty, augments the moral will, enhances the discernment of truth, enlarges the capacity to love and serve one’s fellows, exalts the spiritual ideals, and unifies the supreme human motives of time with the eternal plans of the indwelling Adjuster, all of which lead directly to an increased desire to do the Father’s will, thereby fostering the divine passion to find God and to be more like him.
(1458.3) 132:2.6 As you ascend the universe scale of creature development, you will find increasing goodness and diminishing evil in perfect accordance with your capacity for goodness-experience and truth-discernment. The ability to entertain error or experience evil will not be fully lost until the ascending human soul achieves final spirit levels.
(1458.4) 132:2.7 Goodness is living, relative, always progressing, invariably a personal experience, and everlastingly correlated with the discernment of truth and beauty. Goodness is found in the recognition of the positive truth-values of the spiritual level, which must, in human experience, be contrasted with the negative counterpart — the shadows of potential evil.
(1458.5) 132:2.8 Until you attain Paradise levels, goodness will always be more of a quest than a possession, more of a goal than an experience of attainment. But even as you hunger and thirst for righteousness, you experience increasing satisfaction in the partial attainment of goodness. The presence of goodness and evil in the world is in itself positive proof of the existence and reality of man’s moral will, the personality, which thus identifies these values and is also able to choose between them.
(1458.6) 132:2.9 By the time of the attainment of Paradise the ascending mortal’s capacity for identifying the self with true spirit values has become so enlarged as to result in the attainment of the perfection of the possession of the light of life. Such a perfected spirit personality becomes so wholly, divinely, and spiritually unified with the positive and supreme qualities of goodness, beauty, and truth that there remains no possibility that such a righteous spirit would cast any negative shadow of potential evil when exposed to the searching luminosity of the divine light of the infinite Rulers of Paradise. In all such spirit personalities, goodness is no longer partial, contrastive, and comparative; it has become divinely complete and spiritually replete; it approaches the purity and perfection of the Supreme.
(1458.7) 132:2.10 The possibility of evil is necessary to moral choosing, but not the actuality thereof. A shadow is only relatively real. Actual evil is not necessary as a personal experience. Potential evil acts equally well as a decision stimulus in the realms of moral progress on the lower levels of spiritual development. Evil becomes a reality of personal experience only when a moral

Originally posted by InshaAllah
From the urantia book paper 132:

But the soul that survives time and emerges into eternity must make a living and personal choice between good and evil as they are determined by the true values of the spiritual standards established by the divine spirit which the Father in heaven has sent to dwell within the heart of man.

In other words, there is true good and evil which is not subject to man's choice, just available for man to choose. It says right there that the expectation is that man will come to recognize it, because it is placed in his heart.

I doubt the source, but see a bit of truth in that.

Goodness, like truth, is always relative

Relatively speaking, that is not true.

Like saying "It is absolutely true that truth is not always true?" Yeah. Uh-huh. At this point in the sermon, I quietly slip out of the pew. Sometimes I really do know more than my teachers! (passing reference, for grins, to Psalm 119:99).

Somewhere between here and Paradise, a few persons striving for good have the ability to thwart evil. They see it, identify it for what it is by spiritual discipline, and so they act, with all due force. Most will not. Better they would if everyone was called and equipped to fight evil-- but not everyone is.

Those few who do act, often become the target of the very evil, in a different manifestation or in the same one, which they fought in order to save another. In that, they know the truth of evil's existence and its influence. None of us can hide, but to them, neither can evil. At some level of understanding (spiritual to "gut feel") the fear of just that sort of retribution for opposing evil is enough to cause most to chose not to act-- sometimes wisely and sometimes not.

Metaphysical speculation aside, such truth has been known and taught by spiritual persons for ages. Some disagree and teach something contrary. However, man has a conscience and inaction against evil gnaws at least as much as taking evil action.

"It is not my business"
"I'm not getting involved."
"I'm a lover and not a fighter."
"Who am I to judge?"
"Good and Evil are relative."

Those and other such excuses for not doing good because it is neither easy nor safe-- often mean exactly as the words sound to the ears of those who have taken the risk and payed a price for the inaction of others. And the innocents with whom evil had its way as others dared not intervene-- those innocents know that evil is not relative. Those who hold fast the relative-ness of truth and of good and of evil... well, none would reject anyone else rushing into harms way to save their sorry tails.

I have more respect when I hear (if I ever do), "I see the evil, and hate what I see, but I know nothing about how to stop it. " But I am sick to death of persons preferring to claim spiritual enlightenment instead of admitting they are simply not equipped for that spiritual work.

A point I have made elsewhere serves: Self-professed non-violent persons will not hesitate to call the police when threatened-- knowing full well the police will likely use violence to subdue the threat. It is not violence they truly detest, then, is it? What they hold in disdain is the knowledge that they are not personally equipped to meet the threat-- they need others. Welcome to humanity-- where relations are necessary-- and our spiritual gifts are for the benefit of others.

Finally, in the name of the One your book claims as a source, Jesus, my scripture quotes Him as saying, "I have not come to bring peace, but a sword." All other talk of peace and love and harmony and warm fuzzies must deal with that, too.

reply to post by Frira


Great argument friend although we do have our differences i do believe our views are more in line than i thought.

Goodness and evil do and simply do not exist. it will always falls on the individual who chooses what they desire to be.

it may not be a conscious decision but its a decision never the less. throughout time many have been forced to endure evil.

but what is evil it may or may not be that whoever is choosing to be evil may be aware of this or may not. either way evil endures on, and the innocent must choose for themselves what they must do in response. should they turn the cheek or brandish the sword.

That choice will forever remain their choice and NO ONE ever can alter that.

Somewhere between here and Paradise, a few persons striving for good have the ability to thwart evil. They see it, identify it for what it is by spiritual discipline, and so they act, with all due force. Most will not. Better they would if everyone was called and equipped to fight evil-- but not everyone is. Those few who do act, often become the target of the very evil, in a different manifestation or in the same one, which they fought in order to save another. In that, they know the truth of evil's existence and its influence. None of us can hide, but to them, neither can evil. At some level of understanding (spiritual to "gut feel") the fear of just that sort of retribution for opposing evil is enough to cause most to chose not to act-- sometimes wisely and sometimes not.

And this is where we agree i do admit i see so many people say how the world has gone to ish but do nothing about it. the problem here is they are beginning to see truth for what it is. the seed of truth is growing within they just dont know how to foster it. they want to, but there is no one to point the way.

that is where you and i come into play. i can clearly see you hold truth within you as well as goodness. but what good is your truth if you dont reach out into the shores of despair and help your fellow man, point them towards the shores of truth. the same you sit upon.

how can they enjoy the goodness of life if so many are enjoying the shallow waters of strife. the decadence of it all is so intoxing.

a desserts do not stop being a desserts because we are not hungry any more. nor does that dessert becoming vile tasting because we are full.

it will always be that delicious dessert we crave until the day comes when we do not. the dessert being un-truth.
When they come to this decision its not up to us to berate them for where they came. rather it up to us to elevate who they have become. to embellish their decision to see truth and error for what it is.

and now another passage from the urantia book to ponder on:

One day after the evening meal Jesus and the young Philistine strolled down by the sea, and Gadiah, not knowing that this “scribe of Damascus” was so well versed in the Hebrew traditions, pointed out to Jesus the ship landing from which it was reputed that Jonah had embarked on his ill-fated voyage to Tarshish. And when he had concluded his remarks, he asked Jesus this question: “But do you suppose the big fish really did swallow Jonah?” Jesus perceived that this young man’s life had been tremendously influenced by this tradition, and that its contemplation had impressed upon him the folly of trying to run away from duty; Jesus therefore said nothing that would suddenly destroy the foundations of Gadiah’s present motivation for practical living. In answering this question, Jesus said: “My friend, we are all Jonahs with lives to live in accordance with the will of God, and at all times when we seek to escape the present duty of living by running away to far-off enticements, we thereby put ourselves in the immediate control of those influences which are not directed by the powers of truth and the forces of righteousness. The flight from duty is the sacrifice of truth. The escape from the service of light and life can only result in those distressing conflicts with the difficult whales of selfishness which lead eventually to darkness and death unless such God-forsaking Jonahs shall turn their hearts, even when in the very depths of despair, to seek after God and his goodness. And when such disheartened souls sincerely seek for God — hunger for truth and thirst for righteousness — there is nothing that can hold them in further captivity. No matter into what great depths they may have fallen, when they seek the light with a whole heart, the spirit of the Lord God of heaven will deliver them from their captivity; the evil circumstances of life will spew them out upon the dry land of fresh opportunities for renewed service and wiser living.”

Jesus’ last visit with Gadiah had to do with a discussion of good and evil. This young Philistine was much troubled by a feeling of injustice because of the presence of evil in the world alongside the good. He said: “How can God, if he is infinitely good, permit us to suffer the sorrows of evil; after all, who creates evil?” It was still believed by many in those days that God creates both good and evil, but Jesus never taught such error. In answering this question, Jesus said: “My brother, God is love; therefore he must be good, and his goodness is so great and real that it cannot contain the small and unreal things of evil. God is so positively good that there is absolutely no place in him for negative evil. Evil is the immature choosing and the unthinking misstep of those who are resistant to goodness, rejectful of beauty, and disloyal to truth. Evil is only the misadaptation of immaturity or the disruptive and distorting influence of ignorance. Evil is the inevitable darkness which follows upon the heels of the unwise rejection of light. Evil is that which is dark and untrue, and which, when consciously embraced and willfully endorsed, becomes sin. (1429.2) 130:1.6 “Your Father in heaven, by endowing you with the power to choose between truth and error, created the potential negative of the positive way of light and life; but such errors of evil are really nonexistent until such a time as an intelligent creature wills their existence by mischoosing the way of life. And then are such evils later exalted into sin by the knowing and deliberate choice of such a willful and rebellious creature. This is why our Father in heaven permits the good and the evil to go along together until the end of life, just as nature allows the wheat and the tares to grow side by side until the harvest.”

Originally posted by InshaAllah
reply to post by Frira

 

Great argument friend although we do have our differences i do believe our views are more in line than i thought.

Goodness and evil do and simply do not exist. it will always falls on the individual who chooses what they desire to be.

it may not be a conscious decision but its a decision never the less. throughout time many have been forced to endure evil.

but what is evil it may or may not be that whoever is choosing to be evil may be aware of this or may not. either way evil endures on, and the innocent must choose for themselves what they must do in response. should they turn the cheek or brandish the sword.

That choice will forever remain their choice and NO ONE ever can alter that.

Somewhere between here and Paradise, a few persons striving for good have the ability to thwart evil. They see it, identify it for what it is by spiritual discipline, and so they act, with all due force. Most will not. Better they would if everyone was called and equipped to fight evil-- but not everyone is. Those few who do act, often become the target of the very evil, in a different manifestation or in the same one, which they fought in order to save another. In that, they know the truth of evil's existence and its influence. None of us can hide, but to them, neither can evil. At some level of understanding (spiritual to "gut feel") the fear of just that sort of retribution for opposing evil is enough to cause most to chose not to act-- sometimes wisely and sometimes not.

And this is where we agree i do admit i see so many people say how the world has gone to ish but do nothing about it. the problem here is they are beginning to see truth for what it is. the seed of truth is growing within they just dont know how to foster it. they want to, but there is no one to point the way.

that is where you and i come into play. i can clearly see you hold truth within you as well as goodness. but what good is your truth if you dont reach out into the shores of despair and help your fellow man, point them towards the shores of truth. the same you sit upon.

how can they enjoy the goodness of life if so many are enjoying the shallow waters of strife. the decadence of it all is so intoxing.

a desserts do not stop being a desserts because we are not hungry any more. nor does that dessert becoming vile tasting because we are full.

it will always be that delicious dessert we crave until the day comes when we do not. the dessert being un-truth.
When they come to this decision its not up to us to berate them for where they came. rather it up to us to elevate who they have become. to embellish their decision to see truth and error for what it is.

and now another passage from the urantia book to ponder...

Yes, thanks for the hand, and the words.

The teaching you supplied brought to mind, "...all things work together for good for those who are called according to [God's] purpose."

For a good man to fight evil, there is the chance that he is captured by the enemy to live out the remainder of his days in oppression and humiliation.

Perhaps such a man has begged God to allow him to loose the bonds which tie him to a worldly life, and so it is that evil has unknowingly brought about the very means necessary-- oppression, humiliation, and worse.

Yet, evil remains culpable, and justice demands satisfaction.

~~~ A wise man, a holy man and teacher, once described the popular image of a devil with a pitchfork prodding a saint and juxtaposed that with a mighty Angel armed with a sword defending the saint from the demon. Then, he suggested, "Perhaps, sometimes, if we could see the real spiritual battles regarding the saints, we may see a Holy Angel prodding the demon at sword point to prod the saint with its pitchfork-- the demon and Angel, both, well aware that provoking the saint will likely embolden the saint but not cause him to falter."

I have read a bit about and from the Urantia Book. For what it is worth, I'll tell you what I suspect is going on with that. Good writers, and other creative artists, often describe a part of their work involving a sense that the story (or music) had its own existence and merely used them to make it told. Figuratively, a "muse."

I am not unfamiliar with that sense. Guardedly, I tend to suspect this "muse" sense of a story telling itself to the writer is something spiritual. Tentatively, I suspect it is a form of inspiration-- and one I hope is of God-- wholly good. So it is with caution, that I tend to see the Urantia Book as from such a source.

What bothers me is the pseud-epigraphical ascriptions-- uttered by a sick man as he dreams, Jesus speaking, and so on. That sounds like "marketing" and tarnishes what may be true wisdom. It may be a literary device, but it is not one with which I am comfortable.

It is only in duality that one can name something evil, and blame it or fear it. In unity you do not have that luxury and must take the responsibility for naming anything at all, because you are one with it and it becomes you. It is only in duality that good and evil can exist. The plant does not call the obstruction of a rock "evil" it simply grows around it. It doesn't fight it, nor cast it out, or fear it. Nature has her reasons for her diversity. She knows why the rock, the bug, the fire, the flood & the storm are important. There are always the many layers of gray in which to perceive within duality. There are less in unity. And sometimes that can be scary to someone who is used to blaming others for their perceptions.