Why are you/they called Freemasons?

Originally posted by LTD602
And if you've been reading Alex's post, he's the most eloquent, most informed, and wisest retard I've ever come across.

Awww, shucks! (There's no blushing emoticon, so pretend you see one).

Here's the thing: Corinthas' argument fits into the standard "package" or rhetorical mediocrity that is visible so often these days (no insult against Corinthas, of course, since mediocrity is simply average).

This "philosophy" holds the following precepts as vitally true:

i) In any argument, the truth lies somewhere in the middle between the claims of both participants (So, if someone claims I have murdered 10 people, and I claim that I have murdered no-one, I must have murdered some people.)

ii) It is impossible to convince anyone of anything through argument (so why do we do it, then? Not only have I seen people change their minds because of argument, but I myself have changed my mind because of argument (cogent argument, of course)).

iii) Words themselves cannot prove anything. Logic and a priori obviousness are just tricks used by sophists (again, it boggles the mind why these people continue arguing!). Textual sources by themselves are irrelevant, even if supported by para-, inter-, or intra-textual corroboration (since anyone can lie in writing, of course).

iv) No-one believes anything except that which makes them feel more comfortable or makes their lives easier (and thus, of course, crises of faith never exist, and no-one is ever conflicted about their philosophy).

v) Moral and immoral actions do not exist, and there is no objective external truth (unless of course the actions involve the holder of this philosophy). (I want you to note, this is not the same as intersubjectivity, which is a very complicated and well-thought-out philosophy).

The great thing about this philosophy? Your requirement to think is minimised, and you never need feel that anyone is "better" than you.

Theron - I'm not sure how posting a reference to a page in Morals and Dogma is slander and that my tone denotes that I misunderstood it - The statement is very straight forward - the question was "Why are the Freemasons called such?" and I provided the exact answer as given by Pike.
Am I to assume you think that the name is not derived from the French Freres Macons and that I have misinterpreted this passage (which is ironically about mis-interpetation.)

I am very familiar with the 30th degree and this section of M&D is really worth reading, it is the ultimate degree in the philosphical elements of Freemasonry - all that follows is merely re-itteration.

Then perhaps I misunderstood your reference.

As I noted, many THINK that we originate in the Knights Templar, some from the Stonemasons guilds. I personally do not think we ORIGINATE in the stonemasons guilds, as philosophy does not seem a pasttime engaged in by men that are involved in a physically demanding job. I think it more likely that there is a much older group, perhaps as far back as the Essenes that comprised what is now freemasonry.

There are references to the masons as far back as the tenth century in King Athelstan's court.

If I misinterpreted your post, forgive me.

It seems that reading the rest of the chapter, there is much good information in it, but I am not convinced that the Knights Templar bore a trowel of any kind...

This is the trap with Freemasonry, they allow you to believe whatever you want, regardless of whether it is correct or not.
The use of older symbols from previous religions and groups as well as ambiguous terms like "Mason" (could mean practically anything really) allow members of the cult to draw their own incorrect conclusions which are noted and used to control the behaviour of the individual.
Only the truly sagelike are expected to be able to see past the allegory into the truth, the "Adepts of Masonry."
I fully recommend you read the whole of Pike explaination of the 30th degree.
Pay special attention to the high-lighted passage beginning on page 818.
One day you may thank me for it...but I doubt it.

Originally posted by MrNECROS
This is the trap with Freemasonry, they allow you to believe whatever you want, regardless of whether it is correct or not.

Bloody Hell!!!!!!

Time and time again you have burbled on about how people are brainwashed into following Freemasonry and now you're telling us that people have the freedom to make up their own mind.

Your posts contain nothing but contradiction after contradiction after contradiction after contradiction.
Half the time, you don't even seem to remember what you've posted. I swear if I look through this forum I'll probably be able to find a post where you've stated something is most definitely black and then find a post from half hour later where you swear it is white.

You're not even a good liar. You're an idiot. If you're going to tell lies at least have the decency to remember the ones that you've told.

There is nothing contradictory to the above statement - mind control techniques miselead an individual into believing they have a great wisdom which the cult is helping them unlock.
By constantly massaging someones ego you reinforce their trust in you, you gradually manipulate situatiuons over time so that an individual slowly evolves in the right direction.
Once a person is under the misimpression that they are a genius it becomes increasinly difficult for them to admit their mistakes so they maintain that the "corrected" view was always thier own...deep down inside.

This is explained in Morals & Dogma in several places - including the section I have noted on page 818.

...It is not intended he should understand, only that he should believe he understands...

Originally posted by MrNECROS
There is nothing contradictory to the above statement - mind control techniques miselead an individual into believing they have a great wisdom which the cult is helping them unlock.
By constantly massaging someones ego you reinforce their trust in you, you gradually manipulate situatiuons over time so that an individual slowly evolves in the right direction.

"Massaging the ego"? You really do come out with some pathetic arguments at times.

Wouldn't you think that freedom to think, freedom to believe and freedom to choose is a progression of the individual? It's totally and utterly contrary to use the excuse that by giving extremes of freedom, you can therefore gain complete control of somebody.

You've overstepped the boundaries of logic yet again.

Originally posted by MrNECROS
This is explained in Morals & Dogma in several places - including the section I have noted on page 818.

I have read an unpaginated online version M&D, could you please specify how to locate the content of page 818 without a page number reference.

I have read M&D to completion, though I am not a Mason and I have not reached the same conclusions that you have reached as a result of my reading. M&D has given me a warm fuzzy feeling about Freemasonry versus the crypts of hell feeling it has given you. Why do you suppose that is?
.

Originally posted by MrNECROS
This is the trap with Freemasonry, they allow you to believe whatever you want, regardless of whether it is correct or not.
The use of older symbols from previous religions and groups as well as ambiguous terms like "Mason" (could mean practically anything really) allow members of the cult to draw their own incorrect conclusions which are noted and used to control the behaviour of the individual.
Only the truly sagelike are expected to be able to see past the allegory into the truth, the "Adepts of Masonry."
I fully recommend you read the whole of Pike explaination of the 30th degree.
Pay special attention to the high-lighted passage beginning on page 818.
One day you may thank me for it...but I doubt it.

Yes, Masonry encourages a man to think for himself...

As for thanking you for asking me to read Morals and Dogma, my frined, I have read it twice, and am working through it a third time, with Bridge to Light on order...

But thanks for thinking of me...

I have a close friend who received his 33� in 2001 and is a great guy...but he was honored with the 33� for serving as sound technician in our Valley's Reunion for years. He knows well what music to play at the different points during the degree ceremonies, but knows nothing about Scottish Rite history and symbolism, nor does he care.

I also know Brothers who have received the 33� because they cook dinner for all the meetings, or always participate in fundraisers, etc. For the most part, the 33� is not given due to Masonic knowledge, it's given to award active participation.

Theron dunn
Yes, Masonry encourages a man to think for himself...

About being an electrician or a cook?

Masons need to get their collective stories together. As few non-supportive folks as there are on these forums trying to DENY IGNORANCE regarding masonry, it seems to me that the pro-masons could do a much better job of being consistent.

Get together folks, lay out some belief-system propaganda and stick with it.

(theron- do you have written permission to use that avatar?) j/k I was reminded of another post in another masons are good guys thread.

Whatever you come up with don't expect anyone to buy off on it 'just because' you say so. But for MURDER and TREASON (and those are individual choices) a mason is prohibited from giving witness against another mason- isn't this right?

�tongue torn out by its root� remember this dear 'adepts'?
-or-
�hung by the neck until dead� is more appropriate?

So, let's have a consistent party-line, O.K.?

1st question- do you know of any mason that is NOT helping to take over the world?

Am I not right in observing that:

1.) You are attempting to discredit Masonry based on how well and how skillfully the Masons on this Internet message board represent themselve and their Craft.

2.) If they slip up or show a lack of knowledge or consistency in some area, you use this as evidence for your theory that Masonry is fraudulent and dangerous.

The problem here is that you're LIMITING yourself to the confines of the internet (unreliable) and the confines of the particular way and methods in which THESE PARTICULAR Masons have answered you. You haven't actually experienced masonry firsthand. You make assumptions about Masonry based on what poeple tell you and what is found around the internet (most of which is in no way affiliated with any university or recognized scholarship) . . . . right? You haven't gone far enough in your researches.

While the Masons here are not out to mislead you, it might be a good idea, considering the fact that your goal is to uncover the truth, to experience Masonry firsthand. To that end, you might want to see the therad that I recently started.

[edit on 3-9-2004 by LTD602]

The image I use as an avatar is offered by the masonic lodges for use. As a mason, I am entitled to use it, but really, thanks for asking.

AS for believing me, well, lets just let the readers of this decide who is moe believable... hatemongers with outrageous theories and over the top claims, or masons, who provide honest, succinct, factual answers.

Now, as to your assertions about the degrees... the 33rd degree is an HONORARY degree, and is given to men to outstanding service to masonry and to the community. The electronics and cook brothers were awarded the HONORARY 33rd degree because of their service to masons and the valley.

Why do you have such animosity for a bunch of hard working men? Its beneath you, and demonstrates a definate lack of human kindness...

My grandfather was awarded the 33rd degree because of all the money he donated to the fraterntiy... whenever they needed money or services, he was there... we all serve in different ways... and, after all, as we have been telling you, the 33rd degree is honorary.

Originally posted by theron dunn
The image I use as an avatar is offered by the masonic lodges for use. As a mason, I am entitled to use it, but really, thanks for asking.

Can I use it too?

AS for believing me, well, lets just let the readers of this decide who is moe believable... hatemongers with outrageous theories and over the top claims, or masons, who provide honest, succinct, factual answers.

Sure-
brand anyone that disagrees with your slant as a �hatemonger�, label them as somewhat demented then and only then claim you have been open and forthcoming.

I will continue to search for one, just one, post under your name that explains something of interest regarding masonry. This leaves out anything that could be self-serving, refers to physical trappings of a lodge, colors or honorarium, discourses on picnics and such or anything else that does not pertain to the real workings of the unseen portion of masonry.

I suspect that you're a lawyer, you sure come across like one.
Shakespear �hang the lawyers�

Masons write and postulate what masonry is and has been. Masons have created their own definitions of masonry yet can't explain it to the world! Why not?

All the money, all the real estate, all the political control have to accumulate for some reason. Masonry takes advantage of tax laws, grants and free publicity yet can not explain why it also harbors such distrust to non-masons.

If masonry were 'good' then why hide?

(hate-monger- sheesh, I want understanding- how is that hateful?)

Originally posted by PublicGadfly

Originally posted by theron dunn
The image I use as an avatar is offered by the masonic lodges for use. As a mason, I am entitled to use it, but really, thanks for asking.

Can I use it too?

No, you aren't a mason. Why would you want to use an image that identifies you as being a member of a group you so clearly despise?

AS for believing me, well, lets just let the readers of this decide who is moe believable... hatemongers with outrageous theories and over the top claims, or masons, who provide honest, succinct, factual answers.

Sure-
brand anyone that disagrees with your slant as a �hatemonger�, label them as somewhat demented then and only then claim you have been open and forthcoming.

I will continue to search for one, just one, post under your name that explains something of interest regarding masonry. This leaves out anything that could be self-serving, refers to physical trappings of a lodge, colors or honorarium, discourses on picnics and such or anything else that does not pertain to the real workings of the unseen portion of masonry.

Well, since I do not reveal the "inner" workings of a lodge to a non mason, it is unlikely you will find anything I have publically stated that will fit into your definition. What I have done is debunk the nonsense that masonic critics HAVE posted, and since no one has asked about the inner workings, there will be no posts.... does this help at all?

Ask a real question and you will get a real answer. Post a nonsense statement, and as with Chiefcounselor it will either be ignored or lauged over. No sweat.

I suspect that you're a lawyer, you sure come across like one.
Shakespear �hang the lawyers�

I am not sure whether I should be flattered or alarmed that you have implicitly in your statement called for my death...

Masons write and postulate what masonry is and has been. Masons have created their own definitions of masonry yet can't explain it to the world! Why not?

Well, perhaps because the world are not (is not??) made up of masons... as a cowan (non mason) you are not entitled to know what happens inside a lodge, any more than you are entitled to know what goes on in an executive meeting at your place of work, or of your neighborhood church... you are not a member, so by what right do you expect to gain admission?

All the money, all the real estate, all the political control have to accumulate for some reason. Masonry takes advantage of tax laws, grants and free publicity yet can not explain why it also harbors such distrust to non-masons.

Oh, now come on! That is patenly ridiculous. Masons do not harbor distrust for anyone. We have collected that money over a period of more than 150 years in California... do you refuse us the right to save money, buy land, invest in stocks, bonds, banks? Masonry takes LEGAL advantage of any law, as every citizen and group is entitled to do.

What free publicity? What Grants? If a newpaper covers us, it is because we are doing something newsworth, like ANY group or person. Do you so despise masonry that the best you can do is innuendo and slander?

If masonry were 'good' then why hide?

That is the first interesting thing you have had to "say". But it is also very easy to answer: We do not hide. We are listed in the phone books in every city in this country, we wear our masonic jewelry openly and proudly, many of us post on the internet under our REAL NAMES, unlike some folks. We are HARDLY hiding. We pay our taxes to the IRS and state and local governments, so we are hardly hiding.

We are only "secret" in the sense that we won't let non-members into our meetings...

(hate-monger- sheesh, I want understanding- how is that hateful?)

Well, when you post lies, innuendos, and post death threats (like you did today against me, noting that I sound like a lawyer, and then noting that SHakespere wrote that all lawyers should be killed). How rational is THAT? I DO see you as a hate monger, trying to stir up hatred against masons, when the plain fact is they are among the most honorable, generous, faithful men I have ever met.

Not one of them would be on a site like YOU are doing, mr publicgadfly, posting lies about good men, spinning their words into evil where none exists, and slyly posting innuendos aimed at defaming the good men of masonry... you have yet to show one single reason why masons as a group should not be let alone, instead of being attacked and defamed.

Yes, I call that hatemongering... and I have used FACTS to make my case, instead of innuendo and lies. Thanks for providing me the opportunity to answer your questions.

I can't even quote the quotes you've done theron.

Anyway, so you- not anyone else- you alone have decided that I can not use the same avatar as you- is this right?

You claim I am not a mason. I haven't turned on my web-cam so how do you I'm not sitting here, in Lodge #666 wearing my red Fez with gold tassel, sipping a cappuccino, in my underwear? (Oh, don't forget the slippers-)(fair use)

theron you do NOT speak for masonry. I suspect you are still blue lodge and have not much of a clue about any of the rites- I have been wrong before.

(turn on your web-cam, let me see in the lodge? Puuuleeeez

j/k

None of this has anything to do with ���masonry���
This is all smoke and masonic mirrors- grunt work.

We'll work on masonry another place, another time.

�the widow's son�

Originally posted by PublicGadfly
I have been wrong before...

No need to be redundant or to belabor the point. This is fairly obvious to anyone that reads your posts. I am with theron, I think you just post the outrageous to see what reaction you will receive in response and that you most likely have no strong feelings about Masonry one way or the other.
.

Originally posted by df1

Originally posted by PublicGadfly
I have been wrong before...

No need to be redundant or to belabor the point. This is fairly obvious to anyone that reads your posts. I am with theron, I think you just post the outrageous to see what reaction you will receive in response and that you most likely have no strong feelings about Masonry one way or the other.
.

I "surmise" that you are in error.

The oath, the one about "murder and death, excepted" how did that strike you?

There wasn't a question of, like selling out your own country or anything was there?

Just curious- this could help DENY IGNORNANCE

Originally posted by PublicGadfly
The oath, the one about "murder and death, excepted" how did that strike you?

There wasn't a question of, like selling out your own country or anything was there?

Your questions strike me as fuzzy and unclear. However to the degree I am familiar with Masonic oaths, I will have no problem with sincerely swearing and abiding by those oaths.
.

Originally posted by PublicGadfly

I "surmise" that you are in error.

The oath, the one about "murder and death, excepted" how did that strike you?

There wasn't a question of, like selling out your own country or anything was there?

Just curious- this could help DENY IGNORNANCE

You don't make sense, gadfly. The oath says: ...that I will keep the secrets of a brother master mason as my own when given to me in charge as such, murder and treason excepted...

So, no, it is not a matter of anything so wild as you claim, and is not even a matter of my "obeying" some directive, it is a matter of my keeping the confidence of a brother, excepting murder and treason, so no, it has NOTHING to do with selling out my country.

Thanks for asking and allowing me the opportunity, once more, as only you can so ably do, of allowing me to not only deny ignorance, but to show the fallacious foundations of your fell meanderings...

DF1 � I don�t know anyone who gets �warm fuzzies� from Morals & Dogma, it really isn�t supposed to be that kind of book.
Would be a bit like getting warm and fuzzies from any textbook on theological and political rhetoric (fascist or otherwise.)
Anyway Pikes explanation of Knight of Kadosh runs from page 814 to page 824, it isn�t very big and �pound for pound� it is very straightforward and upfront about the history and motives of Masonry.
The 30th degree is the last of the 14th significant degrees and actually the final Philosophical and Historical Degree although it has been moved into the Consistory to protect its great secrets.
I�d recommend reading the whole 10 pages to get a full understanding of the origins of Freemasonry (according to Pike) but pay attention especially to the section that starts �It is absurd to suppose that men of intellect�� and finishes with �Masonry is the veritable Sphinx, buried to the head in the sands heaped around it by the ages.�

This isn�t to say that I believe that Freemasonry originates with the Templars, it actually appears to have begun in about 1650 in France and is a revival of their ideology.
Before the creation of the first British lodge it is likely that the scattered lodges in the UK were subservient to foreign lodges.
Of course due to the collapse of Freemasonry after the debarkle with the Illuminati France lost its claim to being the mother of Freemasonry, although the �irregular� Grand Orient of France would possibly claim the title failing that.
Please note that the above is just my surmised opinion, although I haven�t seen any real evidence to dissuade me of it yet.

On a side note: GadFly seems to be getting to the root of whats going on - keep digging.