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A Tale of Two Germanys (and England!) and Why Obama's Jobs Plan Must Pass

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posted on Sep, 27 2011 @ 10:43 AM
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It is May 1945. Nazi Germany collapses to the allied forces.

Its industrial base has been shattered, economy has collapsed entirely, National Gov't is in a complete shambles, most major cities have been flattened by allied bombing attacks.

Shortly after World War II, the allies divide Germany and the Iron Curtain slams shut across Europe, for almost 40 years. This is where it gets interesting.

In West Germany, they completely rebuild industry, infrastructure, and cities, to new, regulated modern standards. Employment is high, citizens are happy, the Government reasserts control with a flourishing democracy, the currency picks up strength. Citizens have plentiful goods to purchase in the store, and thanks to the jobs now available, plenty of cash to buy them with.

In East Germany, they haphazardly rebuiild industry and housing, to whatever standard they like under Communist rule (little regulations re building codes etc). Simple commodities are hard to come by in the shops, only the ruling elite have access to even every day items such as a new pair of shoes. East German unemployment remains high, citizens remain unhappy, Government asserts control with an iron fist and police state. The currency remains nearly worthless.

After reunification in 1989, West Germany eventually takes the Eastern section under its wing and starts to rebuild under the same rules and regulations as West Germany. Buildings are bought to code, corporations upgrade their manufacturing and industrial bases or go broke. West Germans complain that their high tax money is going into rebuilding Eastern Germany.

Within another 20 years, the German economy is the envy of Europe, and the world is looking forward to hoping that the German Government bails out countries in the Eurozone that haven't faired so well.

Now, let's look at England. They were on the victorious side in World War II, at the expense of much of their industrial infrastructure. Docklands area of London, once the busiest import/export city in the world, have been destroyed. Many cities and industrial and manufacturing facilities have been heavily damaged, rationing remains in place until the mid 1950's.

What do the British do with that destroyed docklands, and manufacturing and industrial facilities? You'd think this would be a great opportunity to rebuild and reclaim their power. No, they leave them delapidated for years. Then, about 40 years later, in the 1980's, they start to build high cost real estate and offices on that land formerly used for import/export facilities, manufacturing, and industry. Some short term jobs are created, but the cost of living in this area is way beyond the average working class Londoner who were the backbone on this neighborhood before. Docks remain closed, most dock buildings have now been demolished. Some maufacturing and industrial facilities are rebuilt, but to a shadow of their former selves.

London will never gain its status as the leading import / export city in the world, the city no longer has the facilities in place for this, and given the price of the real estate where it used to be, will never regain the ability to have this back. England is no longer a nation that "makes things".

Germany is now seen as one of the powerhouse economies in the world. England, while still a moderately wealthy nation, is a footnote of the G20. Not much is manufactured, most of the wealthy in the country make their money through finance, not through industrial production of goods. No one ever thinks "oh, it's okay, the British will help us out" anymore.

This is why America needs Obama's jobs plan people. Rebuild America to its former glory. Don't become East Germany or England.




posted on Sep, 27 2011 @ 10:52 AM
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reply to post by babybunnies
 


WE dont need higher taxes and more debt. We need less taxes and more jobs. Case closed.



posted on Sep, 27 2011 @ 10:59 AM
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Obamas plan will not work.

At the end of the day, the only thing his plan will do is separate the citizens from their money and sell us out.
Government has no place in creating jobs, that is not their duty.

The only thing required of the government is to get out of our way, and repeal laws that puts limits on private business owners.

Once we can get the obstacles removed, then the people can start creating jobs as it should be. The government is not a job creator, the government is only a burden to society.



posted on Sep, 27 2011 @ 11:03 AM
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Originally posted by kellynap43
reply to post by babybunnies
 


WE dont need higher taxes and more debt. We need less taxes and more jobs. Case closed.



The two are not conducive to each other. Lower taxes don't mean lower jobs. Right now the USA has some of the lowest tax rates on record, and record high unemployment.

Explain to me your theory that lower taxes creates jobs.
edit on 27-9-2011 by babybunnies because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 27 2011 @ 11:06 AM
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Originally posted by Skewed
Obamas plan will not work.

At the end of the day, the only thing his plan will do is separate the citizens from their money and sell us out.
Government has no place in creating jobs, that is not their duty.

The only thing required of the government is to get out of our way, and repeal laws that puts limits on private business owners.

Once we can get the obstacles removed, then the people can start creating jobs as it should be. The government is not a job creator, the government is only a burden to society.


So you want to repeal the EPA, SEC, FCC amongst others. These all put limits on the way private business owners do business.

Want a recent example of deregulation? Try the banking industry. The last great industry that was deregulated so they could do whatever they wanted. How did that work out? Oh, right, with the taxpayer seperated from their money.

Your deregulation argument makes no sense at all. We need common sense regulations, not less of them.



posted on Sep, 27 2011 @ 11:16 AM
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Interesting Post OP.....

Thanks !



The primary difference between these two scenarios is what inevitably lead to not only the creation but the sustaining and growth of these jobs.

Which were the auto industries of West Germany and England.

The Germans built their cars (Volkswagen, Mercedes and Porsche) based upon quality and the British Auto industry and motorcycle industries suffered due to declining quality even though their cars were reasonably priced as were the German vehicles in terms of US Dollars.

The loss of jobs in England AND America was primarily due to producing inferior and less competitive products and subsequently allowing the imports to compete and to eventually edge out the American car companies leading to fewer manufacturing jobs.
Does anyone recall the demise of the MG, Triumph motorcars in the US ? Great looking cars but they were oh so unreliable ...
Meanwhile a Datsun B210 would limp home on 3 cylinders if needbe !

To really fix the problem of jobs, it is relatively simple.

Simply do as the Germans, Japanese and Koreans have done in the past , and produce quality products. People will buy the quality products which result in creating more jobs in successful and flourishing businesses.


Plain and Simple.
edit on 27-9-2011 by nh_ee because: typos



posted on Sep, 27 2011 @ 11:19 AM
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Deregulation has gotten the US nowhere but down the tubes, the Dems need to stop the insane spending and the GOP's ideas are completely ridiculous. We tried what the GOP wants to do in the 80's, it failed then, it will fail today worse. Germany before WW2 was a powerhouse of manufacturing, Hitler brought prosperity never before seen by the middle class.



posted on Sep, 27 2011 @ 11:24 AM
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reply to post by babybunnies
 


You are exactly right. So many people these days think that we don't need any regulation at all, that people can just start up businesses and rake in profits with no oversight. What nobody seems to realize is that the very greed that is the motivation for capitalism in the first place is hungry and when it starts to feed it will devour blindly without regard for other's best interest. Read "The Jungle" by Upton Sinclair to see what mostly unregulated industry does to the working class.

Link to the e-book
sunsite.berkeley.edu...[/url]
edit on 9/27/2011 by wtbengineer because: add link



posted on Sep, 27 2011 @ 11:29 AM
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Let's see, for one, Great Britain was then and is now a socialist state run by a few generally unelected officials. The new Germany was created as a constitutional republic based on the general platform as the U.S. The German economy was a free market economy the British economy was socialistic. It must also be pointed out that the new Germany was built using money and technology supplied by the U.S. The british economy built itself up after the war by it's own power. There was little left of a very devastated island.

What this has to do with the so called jobs program of B.O. isn't made clear in your post and appears to be irrelevant. The success of the post war economy of the U.S. was due to free market ingenuity. It appears that you must be a paid shill for the IMF and other large scale globalist agendas as any one in their right mind would not believe and or post such drivel.

And yes such federal agencies such as the EPA, OSHA, Dept of Education and others should be disbanded and left up to he states, by doing so it gives a closer tie to local watchdog groups and attracts businesses to those areas where they will be most benificial. A competition of states where regulation requires local oversight would benefit all groups involved. As so many globalist spout off Think Globally, Act Locally. This should be applied to regulation as well as government.

reluctantpawn



posted on Sep, 27 2011 @ 11:37 AM
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Although I agree with some of what you are saying, I think there are some problems.

Firstly, by England I can assume you mean the UK. England is only one of several nations which comprise the Unite Kingdom. The correct terminology is important for us Britons.

Secondly, the UK does have a successful manufacturing sector and an economy which is generally successful, although some parts are dependent on particular sectors e.g. banking in central London, scrounging in (ahem) Margate. You can rant and rave as much as you like, but on a per capita basis the UK is more-or-less as rich as Germany.


Originally posted by babybunnies
Not much is manufactured, most of the wealthy in the country make their money through finance, not through industrial production of goods.


Sorry, you are wrong. Basically, Germany’s industrial sector as a proportion of GDP is high for a modern developed nation, but not so high as to shame the UK (28% versus 22%). I don’t often revere Wikipedia as the definitive source, but give this a go. en.wikipedia.org...

Thirdly in the German “Democratic” Republic (RIP) communism helped show the futility of over-regulation. Everything was regulated and controlled. This is why it was crap. The reunification of East and West remains complex with the East still comparatively poor.

Generally, in Europe we have higher taxes and associated higher public services. The US has a different model, whereby things like health are paid for separately, but which could be construed as a “tax” because people need healthcare, or rather if you took healthcare out of my pay packet, my tax would reduce significantly.

Regards



posted on Sep, 27 2011 @ 11:44 AM
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reply to post by babybunnies
 


The Situation in Germany is not soooooooo good as some People may think.
East Germany can`t be compared with the West, 20% and sometimes up to 60%
Unemployment Rate in the North-East is horrible,
even in the West Millions of People are forced to work for 1 Euro a day
and daily many many Jobs become outsourced to the Tempstaff Market!

One Child of 4 is poor (social welfare level)

But i am still very surprised by the Germans,
they do not rebuild only the East,
they (try to) integrated also 6 Million of People from the former USSR/ Kasachstan!

So what is the difference to GB?
I think Strategy and Bribery and the will to do sometimes a Business without getting the Payment!



posted on Sep, 27 2011 @ 11:53 AM
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reply to post by babybunnies
 



How many companies leave the country because of high tax rate? 100s? 1000s?

Those are jobs that are taken out of the country. Jobs were people would be provided income and pay income taxes every year for the government. Now they can’t because you and people like you feel raising business taxes and taxes on the rich somehow justify your short comings in life. When in fact promotes those who earn higher incomes to seek work outside of this country. Taking any jobs they created with them.

48% of people in this country don’t pay taxes. 9.1 are unemployed. Maybe start getting people back to work and stop collecting social security, well fare, and unemployment.

Dell is in China, Citi and other financial companies work in the Philippines and Indonesia.
Maytag abandoned ship.
Apple is considering leaving if California continues to raise taxes.


Do you get it? Not a hard concept is it. Raise taxes, chase jobs and companies out of the country.
Lower taxes, more inclined to stay, will have resources to expand and create more jobs.

This is not a hard concept to grasp. Please refer to Political Science 101 Thank you.

Oh, since every Obama passed bill has had such high success rate in this country (shovel ready) (I’m being sarcastic) what gives you such great confidence that this bill isn’t another failure like all of his others?



posted on Sep, 27 2011 @ 11:54 AM
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The reality is, any program designed to create jobs or stimulate the economy will have to start with the borders being slammed shut to keep cheap imported goods from coming into the country . . . the same goods that are made by some half-starved hut dwellers who's closest thing to a social program is a bullet in the skull if they complain about their lot in life.

You can build nice, heart-warming programs, but unless you have some sort of foundation (in this case a solid manufacturing base), your fearless leaders will be simply flushing your tax dollars, or the dollars they create through ever-growing debt right on town the old American Standard.

The end result will be . . . well . . . a ten-fold times worse situation than we are in now.

Just my thoughts.



posted on Sep, 27 2011 @ 12:03 PM
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reply to post by babybunnies
 


You did not mention the five Billion dollars the Brits had to borrow from the Americans, as they (the Brits) had bankrupted themselves for the second time in 20 years, the French never paid back the loans the Brits made to them to keep the first world war going, so the Brits got shafted three times in all.Only the top one percent of Brits were rich, just like to-day.



posted on Sep, 27 2011 @ 12:06 PM
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The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

I'm sorry but tax cuts should be called tax spending.

You're effetively making the government pay for the extra money you have in your pocket, therefore you aren't saving any money at all.

Tax breaks should be abolished altogether. All that is needed to clean up this entire mess is a re-work of the tax code and some large government subsidized infrastructure projects.

What Obama put on the table was a joke as far as any "real" change in the economy. He's basical trying to put out forest fire with a garden hose.

You have to raise revenue, in conjuction with reduced spending, not one or the other.

~Keeper

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.



posted on Sep, 27 2011 @ 12:15 PM
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Dearest posters:

It must be nice to be sheltered enough to think that this is something Obama himself drew up in his basement to "save the economy".

The man probably hasn't even read the document.

It's just part of a large string of things that will not fix the big picture, but only look like its fixing small areas to make you believe they are actually doing something.

Nobody in politics gives a flying fart about your employment/livelihood.
edit on 27-9-2011 by Partisanity because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 27 2011 @ 12:35 PM
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The OP seems to be ignoring several important facts. Firstly, Germany was rebuolt using US money, as was the bulk of continetal Europe. The UK was left on it's own to make good the damage of War.

Also, someone mentioned the UK was socialist, this is not true. The industries were nationalised as a result of the War effort, not because of political ideology.

Then there is the loans we had to pay back to the US, the loans we didn't get paid back and the fact we had to give up the Empire at the behest of the US, which would have made recovery a damned site quicker and less painless.

A simplification, but the OP is making a point based on erroneous assumptions.



posted on Sep, 27 2011 @ 12:39 PM
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reply to post by babybunnies
 


These regulations you speak of do not help small businesses, what you are speaking of only benefits the large corporations and making it difficult for the small businesses.

Ever hear the term "Buy Local", well, we cant because it is almost impossible for the small business owner to stay in business when large corporations move in and either buy them out or get a monopoly on the local resources that the small business owners need.



posted on Sep, 27 2011 @ 01:12 PM
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reply to post by reluctantpawn
 


Originally posted by reluctantpawn
The new Germany was created as a constitutional republic based on the general platform as the U.S. The German economy was a free market economy the British economy was socialistic.

One of the central principles of "new Germany" is the Social State Principle.
Germany is a social market economy up to today, including a universal health care system, universal educational system and strong trade unions.


Originally posted by reluctantpawn
And yes such federal agencies such as the EPA, OSHA, Dept of Education and others should be disbanded and left up to he states, by doing so it gives a closer tie to local watchdog groups and attracts businesses to those areas where they will be most benificial.

Export of quality products helped alot, but what also pushed the GNP was the partnership of trade unions and employer associations that ensured proper labor law.
Good working conditions ment healthy workers and good wages provided an average quality of living for the general public = money to spend = pushing the GNP.

So if you want to get rid of your OSHA and the ED you would do the exact opposite of what did the trick in Germany.
You would attract businesses yes, but labor conditions would get worse, wages would go down and QoL in general would suck really bad... plus you can't tax someone who dies from #ty working conditions.
Do you really want that for your fellow countryman?



posted on Sep, 27 2011 @ 04:15 PM
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reply to post by babybunnies
 


well,

we need to see exactly how Obama's "bill" (and that's what it will be, a bill for services)


is like the post ww2 plan ?

Let's also look at the corruption costs too


I doubt the two are the same.

show me please.

details please.

and how does $200,000 per job add up to "helping" the economy ?


edit on Sep-27-2011 by xuenchen because:




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