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Help an atheist out.

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posted on Sep, 27 2011 @ 02:06 AM
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Hi, so I was talking to an old friend about religion and she ended up inviting me to church on Sunday where they're having a 'series' on evolution vs. creationism.

As an atheist, I think this is a great opportunity to challenge some of the specious arguments against evolution and what not.

SO, I was hoping my fellow atheists or just pro-evolutionist friends could help me out with some of the main points I could use in an argument.

I know that they are going to try and say things about carbon dating and so forth and I would just like some facts to back up our side.

I'm not trying to be lazy by asking you all to give me all of the facts, I just need some leads at least to the information supporting evolution and refuting creationism. Some good scientific facts.

p.s. I know its going to be hard to find help with this since all of us atheist lack morals and all but thanks in advance!





posted on Sep, 27 2011 @ 02:11 AM
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Debating (which will probably turn to arguing) with a church load of Christians on a sunday sounds horrible.

Good luck, Interested to hear how it goes...



posted on Sep, 27 2011 @ 02:24 AM
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Yea sorry, but that sounds absolutely horrendous. Even when Christopher Hitchens destroys Christian apologist/logic they return to the "Well I believe it because I feel it in my heart" excuse or "The Bible says it so it's true, and it's true because the Bible said it". Just completely circular logic with zero intelligent inquiry. I'm not even atheist, I'm agnostic; and I still do believe there may very well be some creator in existence. But I'm pretty sure it's not the Christian God, and if it was/ then why should I have to fake love towards a tyrant to avoid eternal burning...then again from a logical, self-preservation standpoint you can argue it's better to do just that.



posted on Sep, 27 2011 @ 02:25 AM
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Lots of videos on youtube like this one



Hopes it helps !



posted on Sep, 27 2011 @ 02:42 AM
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reply to post by revs0lution
 


I have no idea what your youtube link is about but I figure I'd help you here.



posted on Sep, 27 2011 @ 02:56 AM
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reply to post by xxblackoctoberxx
 


Well first off – good luck with that

Judging by the theist posts on the origins and creations forum, you will be spending most of your time correcting them on what evolution actually is

Other than that you might check out
www.youtube.com.../u
he did a whole thing on why people laugh at creationists


but if you are in a rush



posted on Sep, 27 2011 @ 03:00 AM
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A simple argument that should help you, or anyone really, see that there is no God.

God, so all powerful and omnipotent, creates the earth, the stars, the moon, the sky, all life on earth, creates man in his own image and does this in 6 days, having the 7'th day to rest.

Then he creates his followers like this:



Seems to me that if those who follow him are so mindlessly retarded - not anyone here, kirk cameron and buddy - that either he fluked the entire lot OR it is indeed random.

Kirk Cameron is proof of evolution - random genetic mutation which either results in the betterment of the species OR eradicates a faulty genentic trait.

At least it makes sense to me.
edit on 27/9/2011 by Ha`la`tha because: trait from line.



posted on Sep, 27 2011 @ 03:09 AM
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reply to post by xxblackoctoberxx
 


Well first off you appear to be lost. You are in the religious forum!

Anyway there is growing evidence neither of those theories is on the money.




S&F for being such a good sport and a good friend over all!
edit on 27-9-2011 by newcovenant because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 27 2011 @ 03:16 AM
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reply to post by xxblackoctoberxx
 


You can make a good argument for evolution but you will never prove it. Nor will they prove anything to you. I would get philosophical on them.

* You can have anything in Heaven right? What happens if you sin in heaven?
* Everyone is different right? So what happens if you don't like heaven?
* Hurting anyone is a sin. Why would God inflict eternal suffering on his own creations?
* The bible has multiple translations. How do you know which one is the most accurate?
* Will a loving person go to Hell if they don't believe in God or accept Jesus or whatever?
* Will the people in remote tribal areas go to Hell if they fail to learn about God?
* Why does so much of the world live in poverty, yet the most corrupt people on Earth thrive?
* Does one require guidance from the bible in order to know how to act morally?
* God "cleansed" the Human race in a great flood. Does that mean God makes mistakes?
* If God makes mistakes then how can "he" possibly know everything and be everywhere?
* Wouldn't something so amazing as God require a creator? It can't come from no where!
edit on 27-9-2011 by ChaoticOrder because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 27 2011 @ 03:27 AM
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It doesn't sound like you have thought about the subject a whole lot. If you don't know the arguments for evolution vs creationism it sounds like you have a lot of faith in whoever told you that evolution was a fact. Im guessing that being the education system and the television.

Here are the arguments that creationists will make

1> The existence of evil that is self destructive for evils sake.

2> Natural Selection only removes species,

3> How did we have so many specifies before the big die off.

4> Why do most dinosaur grave yards appear to have been swept into delta's and such and all died at the same time and/or buried alive and suddenly in a flood like way rather than slow death from a nuclear type winter suggested by the asteroid death theory.

5> The variation of Carbon dating was arbitrarily decided by a board of bureaucrats with no science to back it up.

6> Fossils have been found containing modern materials suggesting that rapid fossilization.

7> Cave art (less than 5000 years old) show dinosaurs such as triceratops which are quiet unique and only reconstructed in the last 70 years.

8> The argument 'if god made the universe, who made god' becomes, if the big bang created the universe, what created the big bang.

9> Flying functioning feathers and genetic mutation for feather growth and preflight with national selection.

10> The huge gap between the human race and every other species. Where are the half ape/half man species and why would they have all become extinct but not the simian species.

Off the top of my . these are some of the things that are nothing to do with faith, provable facts and rational questions, which do not support evolution or the big bang theory. I'm sure with a tiny bit of research you will find many more items which are currently up for debate.

Perhaps after you read about these subjects you may become a skeptic of evolution yourself. Perhaps you could listen to what they say before making judgment on it without listening.
edit on 27-9-2011 by Gravity215 because: (no reason given)

edit on 27-9-2011 by Gravity215 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 27 2011 @ 03:32 AM
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I am not attacking you or preaching just sharing a bit of my story. So please listen with an open mind.
But before I begin. I want to explain or at least give you an idea of what I believe an atheist to be.

I believe an atheist is a person that does not believe in the divine intervention or a higher power in their lives. In short there is no god only me. I don't believe that atheist are bad people or are without a moral compass.

I went through a scenario much like yours. Didn't believe in any thing outside of my own thinking mind. That evolution is just how things were and we that we would continue to evolve even after I was long gone.

I met my wife, she is what most would call a devout christian and even though I was not a fan of religion I entered into the relationship with here. And yes we went round and round about evolution and other worldly discussions. So she invited me to her church so that I could ask questions. I refused at first but eventually gave in. And went. As we sat in service and the preacher was preaching about the bible, I blocked him out and pretty much ignored him word for word. I took the entire service as Blah Blah Blah nothing new here.

When the service was over my then girlfriend walk up to the pastor and said to him. This is my friend Ray and he has some questions for you. I was shocked she did this to me. So he said if you have questions you can talk to me in about 20 minutes if you like.

To make a long story short. I sat in his office and asked him give me one sign of proof that there is a higher power than me or you?

His Answer is as follows.

You know how the world works? I'm going to give you an example. Rain, where does rain come from? I said the sky. He said. It does in fact come from the sky. But the water originally comes from the ocean by way of evaporation, that water packs itself in the sky until it can now longer hold the water and it begins to rain. That rain feed the plants of the world and we in turn eat plants to survive. I said "yeah everyone knows that" He then said Look at how the human body works, you breath oxygen that is created by plants, which fill your lungs, and you eat food which also come from the vegetation that is naturally maintained by the rain cycle I was just talking about. And you need those two things to survive. And I replied. "So what's your point" "my point is there are cycles everywhere in the world that we call an ecosystem or as the lion king movie put it a circle of life (i suppose this was his attempt at humor) Everything supports everything else. "ok I get that" I say. And this is where he got me.

How many accidents does it take to create an intelligent design?
I just want you to think about that for a minute.
How many coincidences do you need to see before you can come to the conclusion that there is an actual design for the existence of everything. That all things exist in a circle or a cycle. For anything to survive it needs something else to support it. You, me, a tree, a planet, a solar system, a universe. Even if evolution were true, it has an intelligent design and someone not something had to design it. He stood up and said. It was nice meeting you young man, he shook my hand and said intelligence is never an accident it is a creation that is manufactured by evolution.

Like I said I'm not trying to preach to you. But this conversation got me thinking and I began researching and rethinking because what the Pastor said to me that day. Just Made Sense. Common Sense.

I am a believer that everyone has a right to believe what the want. Sometimes Common Sense and to this day I still question everything. Do I believe in the creation or evolution theory. What came fist the chicken or the egg.

Even if the big bang theory were scientifically proven as a fact. The big bang had to come from somewhere. Which still leads you to the intelligent design. So is there a higher power yes. Is it God, Allah, Aliens, That's up to you. But me I believe the intelligent design theory.

Question everything. And eventually you will come to a belief that's comfortable with you.

Not all churches frown on Atheists by the way and not all religious people are whack jobs that try and stuff their ideals and morals down your through. You are probably encountering the wrong people. Some will try and sway to believe in what they believe in and others are willing to set you on a journey of discovery. Others are more about teaching those that just don't understand.

I still to this day do not go to church on Sundays, but I am no longer an atheist as I do believe there are more intelligent and divine things in the world. This is my journey. And as the pastor told me that day. This is the beginning of your journey. If you question what you believe then that's the beginning.

I do however still talk to the pastor and question him. I do go to church with my wife and there are really great people there. And they know where I stand.



posted on Sep, 27 2011 @ 03:52 AM
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I think the reason Christians are so frantic about TOE is because if it is what happened (and I’m persuaded by the evidence it was) then Christians have to rip chapters 1-3 of genesis out of the bible

And I’m guessing that if they have to do that then there are many other bits that have to come out – including the jesus bits


So its no wonder they use any tactic they can to fight against TOE



posted on Sep, 27 2011 @ 04:19 AM
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Originally posted by xxblackoctoberxx
Hi, so I was talking to an old friend about religion and she ended up inviting me to church on Sunday where they're having a 'series' on evolution vs. creationism.

As an atheist, I think this is a great opportunity to challenge some of the specious arguments against evolution and what not.

SO, I was hoping my fellow atheists or just pro-evolutionist friends could help me out with some of the main points I could use in an argument.

I know that they are going to try and say things about carbon dating and so forth and I would just like some facts to back up our side.

I'm not trying to be lazy by asking you all to give me all of the facts, I just need some leads at least to the information supporting evolution and refuting creationism. Some good scientific facts.

p.s. I know its going to be hard to find help with this since all of us atheist lack morals and all but thanks in advance!



I'm interested to know OP, what exactly is your agenda here??

You state that your a self proclaimed "athiest" and yet you call on fellow like minded ATS'ers to support your argument with "an old friend" within a place of worship??

This strikes me as highly unusual and again I politely ask you, what is your agenda here??

As an "athiest" (as you call yourself), one would think that you already have well rounded views, beliefs and philosophies that would hold up well in an arguement with any person of any religious persuasion.

Please do tell.

Peace
edit on 27-9-2011 by Perhaps because: typo



posted on Sep, 27 2011 @ 06:06 AM
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So, to recap, you are going in the guise of a personal guest to disrupt a meeting which isn't a debate by "debating." You don't know much about the subject, but your plan is to wow everybody with what you can cram into your skull by watching YouTube videos.

There is a time and a place for everything, and you are visibly not the man for the job.

You might do your cause a favor and either skip the meeting, or else, attend the meeting and listen attentively to learn what your opponents argue. Take notes, then afterwards learn what the truth is about what they say, so you are more ready next time. There will be a next time, you may be certain.

And thank you for the acknowledgment that despite every reason not to, you still fell impelled to witness for your beliefs among the non-believers. It is always heartening to be reminded how much atheism is nothing like religion.



posted on Sep, 27 2011 @ 06:14 AM
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Double check that it's a debate, and not just a biased speech. Most churches would never give a non-creationist the stand for even a moment.

Invite more pro-evolution friends you have, so you're not ganged up on as bad. Have them study some as well. Maybe even some neutral people who'll be able to voice the intermediary, vocalizing which arguments are good and bad from either side.

Google will take you to all the creationist arguments, and where they fail. Study hard, both rebuttals to their claims, as well as listing evidences for yours.

You'll need to print out things like lists of transitional species, known cases of speciation, observed beneficial mutations, and have demonstrable articles so they can't just pretend they don't exist. Just have demonstrable evidence for anything they'll deny if you only say it.

You get the idea.



posted on Sep, 27 2011 @ 07:07 AM
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I'd ask them "If we were created in the image of god... why do we keep dropping stuff on the evolutionary ladder"

Then you can list things like:
Wisdom teeth
The 3rd Eyelid
Paranasal sinuses

Well here is a list and what the parts did
List



posted on Sep, 27 2011 @ 07:47 AM
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reply to post by xxblackoctoberxx
 

May I encourage you to re-read the posts of Perhaps and eightbits. Forget, for a moment, evolution vs. creationism and think of what effect your actions will have. Will there be any positive results? Perhaps a momentary rush of satisfaction, even if you have all the facts and win the debate. The negative results? Too many to list. But you will damage your relationship with an old friend and be labeled as a "jerk" or a "bully."

Please look at yourself and ask "How did I become the sort of person that wants to cause discomfort to others only to make myself feel important?" Please reconsider your plans.



posted on Sep, 27 2011 @ 09:59 AM
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If you are sincere in what you're saying OP. I recommend you stay away from that meeting altogether. But if you must go, keep foot out of mouth, and just listen. It's not really for outsiders. It's to strengthen the knowledge and resolve of believers. (To put it nicely)

Arguing with these folks would be like repeatedly beating your own . against a brick wall. Except you'll get further with the wall.



posted on Sep, 27 2011 @ 02:52 PM
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By all means just go with all the impressive knowledge that has made you such a superb atheist to this very day!


While dazzling those 'dumb backwards Christians' with your razor-sharp intellect...maybe you should keep your heart open jus a lil'?


Just go with what you know and see what you come away with.



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