The Creator

reply to post by Nkinga

how can someone say God can't from nothing, yet, turn around and say atoms can?

In my opinion, it is all about how you view god. I personally do not believe in a supernatural creator. We can not explain what happened and I am not arrogant enough to think a supernatural being within a story made by man was responsible. I think it is perfectly alright saying, "I don't know." I am confident that one day we will know and that is what drives me.

reply to post by Nkinga


In my opinion, maybe they came from things that ancient civilizations could not explain yet (even though that is not an option, I suppose). Such as natural disasters or storms, etc. Those can be some pretty miraculous things to see and a primitive mind could confuse it with a higher power, right? Also, there is the option of being visited by other intelligent life, which I also think has a high potential for being correct.

reply to post by Tony4211


See, something like that, I can fully understand and appreciate, as well as respect.

The one thing we find...when concerning a belief in God...is not evidence. If you were to systematically ask every single person who had a faith in God....why they believed in a God...you would not hear answers of scientific testable evidence. What you would hear about are emotions, and experiences. Thats what it comes down to. Faith...does not come down to "proofs" the core of anyone's story who fully, truly, faithfully, unshakably believes in God, will not give you a story of "proof" they will give you a story of what they experienced that made God undeniable to them.

Yes, you will have the ones of "my parents are" Or, " I grew up as" these are not those I am talking about...these are not unshakable believers of God. I'm talking about the ones on here, who are the ones who state "I don't care how, or why, I just believe that God is there" ...this is because..it has been made undeniable to them...not down to proof, or scientific fact, but because they cannot discredit, nor deny what they saw or felt with their own minds and bodies.

This is why the debate of "God, no God" will never go away...because as long as those experiences that make him undeniable happen, there will always be a undeniable belief in him. Those who either do not experience it, or who find other answers for that experience will continue to deny that a God could even exist. It has always appeared to me that it takes far more of an open mind to believe in the supernatural.

It doesn't come down to a book. Which has always been silly argument to me anyway.."Oh, its in a book, so its made up." There are countless upon countless of ancient texts, that speak of Gods and supernatural happenings..yet, many of them are used for historical contexts on those particular people. I mean, after all....if someone experienced God...why would they not write it down? Not to say that everything in the bible would be true, nor that it means that God is real simply because the book is there, but to claim he is not because ancient people wrote it down seems odd to me.

In any case...this will always be the debate..doesn't matter how many times someone asks the question...there will always be those who believe and those who don't and both sides have every right to argue or discuss their points. I don't believe we can claim either side to be "silly" or "ignorant" one cannot disclaim what science shows them, the other cannot disclaim what they saw and heard with their own hearts, minds, eyes and ears. How can either side be "silly" or "ignorant"?

reply to post by Tony4211


I don't think, one would be able to look at a storm, or natural disaster and say "oh, its a God" or "higher being" the reasoning is...along with ancient texts about Gods and beings..we also find within their writings that they had basic knowledge of earth science...they knew that the rain came from the streams and rivers, they knew that the clouds held that rain...they knew about weather systems as well as other natural powers that we have on earth...even within the bible itself..we see that while other ancients surrounding them seemingly gave thanks to a rain god, harvest god, etc...the Hebrews did not..how odd. My personal belief is that when concerning other ancient texts and their discussions of Gods (possibly even including the bible) is that they were philosophical. , Yes, a higher power, because in their understanding...what had higher power than weather? they understood, they could not control the weather, the crops, the animals, even today, if we were to stand back and take a good look we would find..Humans are not in charge like we like to believe we are. We have no control, there are higher powers than us, I think, the ancients knew this, and understood it and respected it more so than we do today, I think our interpretations are wrong. God=super power, higher power.

However, aside from that..I do personally also believe in a creator. I do in fact believe in Jesus, and the full story word for word of Jesus. I just do not see it possible that 12 men would allow themselves to be burned, buried alive, starved to death, crucified upside down, or beheaded for a man who was just a "great teacher" or for a man "who didn't exist to begin with" I know from myself, that if I saw a man walking around healing the blind, bringing people back from the dead..rising after 3 days, that if someone came to me and stated..."renounce your belief or we will kill you." I'd tuck tail and run...now openly stand out in the middle of all of them and begin preaching about the person. On top of that I have my own person experience that made God, undeniable to me, so much so, that I do not care, how, or why..I am content in simply knowing "he is" and I think that is what he meant when he stated in the bible "I AM" He made himself undeniable to Moses, he made himself undeniable to those still alive in Egypt....therefore, when Moses would have gone back and stated "I AM" it would have made it undeniable for them. Because as I stated...a belief will never come down to a proof...it comes down to something that just simply makes it undeniable. "HE IS"

As for Aliens....I do not even come close to believing that we have possibly more than one universe, with billions upon billions of galaxies, that hold billions upon billions of solar systems and all it holds...is us? riiiiighhhhht.

Originally posted by Tony4211
reply to post by colbe

 

I am not trying to be disrespectful, but this comment does not address any of the questions I asked. This comment seems to be what you hold as proof that your god exists.

No offense taken Tony, I am sorry, it is my devotion to God the Father. I can address your question for the thread. I'll share one fact first, how can it be whoever someone's God is? It has been revealed and we see through history. All the miraculous points to the Blessed Trinity, the Christian God. God in love may have taken exception granting something miraculous to disbelievers to help one day bring them to the faith, to the Truth.

"If there was a creator, an almighty being that brought everything into existence, what created him? What triggered the being to create life at that particular time or life at all for that matter? Why not make creatures as perfect as the being itself?"

No one created God, He is eternal, no beginning, no end. We with our human minds
can't comprehend. Adam is the created so he can never be God. Man has a beginning and no end. God gave Adam and Eve preternatural gifts. They lost them in the garden
after the fall. One of these supernatural gifts was "infused knowledge." Adam knew of
the consequences of his act (original sin) before he did it! This is why it was so serious.

reply to post by colbe


When Adam sought out to be all-knowing like god, he was punished for it. You may argue that it was because he disobeyed him, yet he ordered him not to partake of the fruit in the first place. Why would god want to keep such a beautiful thing from his creations? That seems a bit gluttonous to me. Someone who feels the need to horde all of the knowledge for themselves.

Originally posted by Tony4211
reply to post by colbe

 

When Adam sought out to be all-knowing like god, he was punished for it. You may argue that it was because he disobeyed him, yet he ordered him not to partake of the fruit in the first place. Why would god want to keep such a beautiful thing from his creations? That seems a bit gluttonous to me. Someone who feels the need to horde all of the knowledge for themselves.

"God gave Adam and Eve preternatural gifts. They lost them in the garden after the fall. One of these supernatural gifts was "infused knowledge." Adam knew of the consequences of his act (original sin) before he did it! This is why it was so serious."


God didn't "horde" anything. Come to God's view, He is all loving, not us. Satan desired man to fall too as He did by saying no to God. Remember, St. Michael the Archangel's question..."Who is like onto God?" We can't be like God, we are His creation.

Here's the point again, God gave Adam supernatural gifts and Adam still chose to disobey His creator. If you knew, the consequence of disobeying God would bring consequences to every person created and still do it....that is very serious. Free will is the most humble gift from God. God has to wait for us to choose Him.

Adam repented of his sin, God forgave him...see the love of God.

Hello Tony, I just saw your latest post. Thanks and I think I replied to it. This is a great
thread subject. The creator, God the Father deserves our attention and devotion, He
has to wait again...you know what I mean?

Originally posted by Tony4211
...Why not make creatures as perfect as the being itself? Could the Creator be a metaphor for something? Before anyone mentions it, this thread was not meant to deceive anyone. I am curious to hear these questions answered to the best of everyone's ability.

Two pasted definitions of preternatural gifts but they better explain than I can.

A supernatural gift may be defined as something conferred on nature that is above all the powers (vires) of created nature. When God created man, He was not content with bestowing upon him the essential endowments required by man's nature. He raised him to a higher state, adding certain gifts to which his nature had no claim.

PRETERNATURAL GIFTS
Favors granted by God above and beyond the powers or capacities of the nature that receives them but not beyond those of all created nature. Such gifts perfect nature but do not carry it beyond the limits of created nature. They include three great privileges to which human beings have no title--infused knowledge, absence of concupiscence, and bodily immortality. Adam and Eve possessed these gifts before the Fall.

reply to post by Tony4211


See, I think there is more to it than that. Think of it as a parental role. Do we give our children all knowledge of all things right away? No, we determine a time that we think they are ready. That is our role as a parent. When reading the story of Adam and Eve..we find that they already had some knowledge. After all....there must have been some kind of conscience that made them obey God's word to begin with. Think about it. I place a candy bar on a kitchen table and I tell my 18month old not to eat it...what are they going to do? now...tell my 5 year old the same thing..what are they going to do? (in my case, she would listen and wait, she's just that way) now, bring in my 10 year old..who would attempt to talk the 5 year old into taking a bite, so that she can take a bite herself (yes, she would) and there you go. Maybe I wanted them to wait till after dinner, maybe the bar was for their dad, maybe it had expired, but I was in a hurry and couldn't explain that right away..whatever the case may be...I'm the mom, I've given my children no reason to distrust me, nor to hunger at any time in their lives, there should be no reason for them not to listen to me on this one thing, for the time being.

Think about knowledge. What it actually means..the responsibility that comes with it. The knowledge of what is right, what is wrong and the power to wield it to your advantage. The question isn't "why did God withhold something" The question is "Were Adam and Eve prepared enough for the responsibility of it?" The answer I believe..was no.

Originally posted by Nkinga
reply to post by Tony4211

 

I don't think there really is an answer..at least, not one that we would understand or see....I mean, really...how can the human mind really get the concept of infinity? the concept of something with no beginning? I mean...lets even just take God out of it for a second, and look at us, ourselves....our Earth had to have a beginning...we are told it was the big bang...but there had to be something to make the big bang happen....which means..there had to be something even before that...and before that..and before that....and before that....etc etc etc etc...but when we stop to think about it...that means...at some point..somewhere...there had to be an actual beginning..where there was nothing before it...how did that first beginning get there? Science says that atoms smashed together, causing the big bang...Great...where did the atoms comes from? how did they get there? what created them? they were just there? how? and if something created the atoms..then what created it? and what created that particular it? or the it that created the it that created the atoms? etc etc etc....and yet, we come full circle and realize that after all these "ITS" there would originally have to be one beginning "IT" how? where did "it" come from?

I realize this wasn't probably to be a discussion on Science Vs. God (in my opinion they go hand in hand) but, how can someone say God can't from nothing, yet, turn around and say atoms can?

Well put.........I think that sums it up in a nutshell........you can keep going and going and going, back and back and back, but something always has to come from something else.......so if there was nothing at the start, where did the something come from? (I am using the word something to cover everything that as far as I know exists)....drives me nuts...........

reply to post by nusnus


Thats not evidence, thats just BS which you are preaching.

Wow. More bible references to back up your story about creationism, yawn heard it all before.

Now the evolutuon side, scientists have proven evoluted for a very long time now and every day they are finding new evidence. I ask my RE teacher before, "how does god exist and who created him/her/it?" She said, "oh um, he was self existant" then she tried to be a smart arse and asked "how did they big bang happen? where were the atoms?" And i said the exact same thing to her.

Dont get me wrong, I'm an aetheist. I will only believe in god, IF there is any proof of his/her/its existance.

P.S, I said proof not bible references.

"Nothing comes from nothing...except for god apparently"

Makes perfecct sense, right?

Originally posted by MrXYZ
"Nothing comes from nothing...except for god apparently"

Makes perfecct sense, right?

Yea, sure it does.

It makes just as more sense as saying all politicians are not corrupt and wants whats best for its country.

reply to post by Tony4211

If there was a creator, an almighty being that brought everything into existence, what created him?

i believe in the big bang, i also believe there will be a big crunch, and that our universe has always existed. a universe that just recycles itself (big bang, big crunch, and repeat.) infinity.

if i believed in a god i would probably believe god's existence is infinite and uses a similar process. (creation, destruction, and repeat).

reply to post by Tony4211

If there was a creator, an almighty being that brought everything into existence, what created him?

It created Itself. Infinity becoming aware of itself is what "created" the Creator.

What triggered the being to create life at that particular time or life at all for that matter?

Awareness of Its infinite potential, the possibility of experiencing/exploring/knowing Itself infinitely.

Why not make creatures as perfect as the being itself?

It is "perfect" because It is all there is. The Creator is Its Creation. Therefore Its "creatures" are Itself, and all entities in the Creation, no matter their shape, form, color or density of consciousness in their evolutionary path, are essentially "perfect".

Could the Creator be a metaphor for something?

A metaphor for yourself.

The Creator is not a white-bearded dude on a white robe and a pair of flip flops sitting in the clouds (therein lies the Great Deception).

reply to post by Tony4211


Well to think that it's possible for me , you or any human being to be able to understand the origin of God is like expecting the Bug in the Bottle to understand the Boy that put Him there!!! I appreciate your thread but think about it. Man can't manage the planet he lives on much less have a sit down and figure out the Depth of The Lord. ( God ) whatever you call The Creator!!! thank you for your thread..