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So What did We learn?

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posted on Sep, 26 2011 @ 12:45 PM
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Originally posted by Klassified
What a bunch of brain dead morons. They don't understand that science never makes mistakes, and never lies. In fact, I nominate you for chief inquisitor.


99% of the crap on Youtube are lies! Science admits their mistakes. YouTubeologists and Fearmongers just move the goal posts, make straw man arguments and even more absurd statements. That's a big glass house you're living in there mate!

IRM




posted on Sep, 26 2011 @ 01:07 PM
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reply to post by InfaRedMan
 


This thread isn't about youtubers and conspiracy theorists. This thread boils down to crucifying anyone who doesn't think like the OP, and toe the scientific consensus line. It's about those who are not religious zealots about established science. It's about squelching free thought, and free speech. It's about humiliating people who think for themselves, and don't buy everything that comes from the mouth of the establishment.

So what! They might have been wrong in this instance. And many others too. Well, lets go back and crucify some others in the past who weren't quite right either, but still added to our knowledge. Damn them for challenging the prevalent "facts" of their day.

I am pleased with the scientific progress made in my lifetime. But I won't quote them or turn to them as an infallible source. Or as the gods who have spoken. Which is how some of you treat them.

The glass house is lived in by those who won't question conventions and status quo's. Those who treat the scientific community like the congregation of the Catholic church treats the Pope.



posted on Sep, 26 2011 @ 01:11 PM
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Originally posted by loves a conspiricy



Generalizing again....and hypocritical to top it off...naive is thinking you KNOW something....and you are acting like YOU KNOW nothing is threatening earth, etc....as if NASA would announce it...


So you have watched a Youtube video, read a random blog and decided NASA and all the other people looking to the skies are lying??

I do know nothing will come of Elenin...100% guaranteed it will not effect us in a single way.

BTW...how much of a loss did you make on your gold and silver lol???


So you assumed I decided to believe or not to believe....you ASSUMED I watched a youtube video and read a random blog to lead me to the conclusion that NASA would LIE about something as significant as an ELE...I would be absolutely floored if NASA decided to disclose information such as that for several reasons and not because of youtube videos or blog by jow blow...but because common sense dictates something of that magnitude would have such societal concequence it would be hidden at all costs...

there you go again with the naivety claiming "knowledge" let alone 100% knowledge on something as obscure and varying as comets and the movement of astral bodies through space...I'm assuming you have your doctorate in astrophysics and astronomy and have written several papers to be that absolute and sure of something of this nature...

go ahead search through all my forum posts on the subject I have been on the fence the entire time claimed neither here nor there, belief, or disbelief I simply entertained ideas based on the notion there is no way to know 100% for sure…even though you are convinced you do.


edit on 26-9-2011 by Sly1one because: (no reason given)

edit on 26-9-2011 by Sly1one because: edited for possible derailing



posted on Sep, 26 2011 @ 03:27 PM
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I'm never said the government never lies.

But these Elenin supporter were presented with everyday facts from fellow ATS'ers, from Arm Chair astronomers, the Elenin supporters chose to ignore those in favor making statements like.


There is a surprise behind Elenin



Keep eating what the MSM is feeding you blind sheep



Elenin will change alot


^These are summaries of what has been said on this site.

Go to youtube a few members went on youtube trying to spread this. They even used the same username so it's easy to find them making comments.. They went through the internet copying and pasting trash from other sites.

It's not about having the same beliefs as someone, it's about some being a gullible fools willing to believe EVERYTHING you see on the internet and share it as truth, and Reject everything else.

But hey, move along to the next harmless comet, or random date. I just hope that these people have permanently lost credibility on this site.

"Deny Ignorance"

though some will choose to accept ignorance and defend it.
edit on 26-9-2011 by StarPeace because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 26 2011 @ 03:35 PM
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Originally posted by Klassified
reply to post by InfaRedMan
 


This thread isn't about youtubers and conspiracy theorists. This thread boils down to crucifying anyone who doesn't think like the OP, and toe the scientific consensus line


No, that's not it at all. There is so much more wrong with the way these doomsdayers think, reason, and put forth their arguments than just "failing to toe the official line". They lie, distort facts, and make outrageous claims which they put forward as absolute fact, completely refusing to accept that they might be wrong.

This is harmful pseudoscientific religious behaviour, and the OP and others are right to call them out on their BS, otherwise they'll learn nothing from their mistakes.



posted on Sep, 26 2011 @ 04:00 PM
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reply to post by humphreysjim
 


Agreed. What you list has happened, and does happen. Some folks on both sides of this debate are guilty of an unwillingness to look at alternative views to their own.

I have been known for being quite hard on the establishment. But to completely ignore the scientific consensus is just as bad as preaching it like it's the gospel.

I like to think I try my best to be balanced on these issues, even if one side seems lopsided to me. I have said in the past, our resident skeptics are an integral part of the ATS equation. But our free thinkers are just as much a part of that equation. Even when they're wrong.



posted on Sep, 26 2011 @ 04:05 PM
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reply to post by StarPeace
 


I understand what you're saying, and I don't agree with that kind of attitude from either side. Nevertheless, we live in a society where the distrust of the establishments "facts" runs deeper as we move along. And unfortunately, to a fault. But I won't repeat myself. See my post above this one.



posted on Sep, 26 2011 @ 04:31 PM
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reply to post by StarPeace
 


Why so down on the purveyors of fear and their sheeple consumers? On this site, they sell fear for a few worthless stars and flags to those who are eager for the end of life as we know it. It's all about Capitalism! They are providing a product/service to consumers.

Some of these sheeple have spent a lot of real money on books, bunkers, ammunition, food and water to prepare for any number of catastrophes. The purveyors of fear give the sheeple validation for their purchases...at least until the date comes and goes without happening. Then they latch onto the next one and the next one and the next one and the next one......

Until I can purchase sweet ATS gear with my S&Fs, I don't see what the big deal is for those who crave them. I don't like the new rule that allows members to take away flags, once you make the decision to flag a post, you must own that decision and live with it.



posted on Sep, 26 2011 @ 06:55 PM
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Everything, not to be so #ing stupid and wait for the next dooms date to come around, remember another train of crazies will be around shortly.



posted on Sep, 26 2011 @ 09:04 PM
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reply to post by Sly1one
 



but because common sense dictates something of that magnitude would have such societal concequence it would be hidden at all costs

That makes no sense. I'll tell you why. Anybody in government or business knows how important it is to protect the assets. You protect those assets by getting people rallied to prevent disaster. If the disaster comes from space are you going to let it happen or are you going to rally the people to devise some plan to attempt to stop the disaster from happening?

Allowing the assets to be destroyed is not in the interest of the government. If NASA wants loads of money they can get it by pointing to a threat and then asking for funds to attempt some sort of a rescue. If the destruction would be $100 trillion what would it hurt to give NASA a trillion to try to save the planet?

Every I hear this claim that they would hide it I think of the teenager whispering to themselves, "If I tell myself I'm not pregnant I won't be pregnant." People deal with problems they don't pretend they are not there.



posted on Sep, 26 2011 @ 09:14 PM
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reply to post by Klassified
 


These free thinkers as you call them are not free thinkers. There in lies the problem. The issue is that they pretend that obvious failures are not gross mistakes. The things they claim about Elenin are as nonsensical as stating any of the following:
1. People I know sprout wings whenever they want to
2. When I took math 0 and 1 were not numbers
3. There is a bridge across the grand canyon but it's invisible so that the place still looks natural
4. I hired this dog to do my homework, but he kept getting A+ and that is how the teacher caught me
5. When I was traveling I met these people that were not men or women. They were neutrals.
6. Rocks in Kamchatka can float in the air. The air is really heavy there, that's why it happens.

Thinking out of the box is not the same as posting delusions.



posted on Sep, 26 2011 @ 09:29 PM
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reply to post by Sly1one
 


It's not so much the need for Elenin believers to apologize for being wrong. I would much rather have an apology for all of the names and insults that have thrown my way by Elenin believers throughout this whole circus. I know I'm not the only one who has been called a shill, disinfo agent, close-minded, sheople, etc. I know I'm also not the only one who had their integrity questioned because of listening to logic as opposed to the likes of Terral Croft. So, I don't care if the Elenin believers admit that they were wrong. I'm just glad that this whole thing is over. But I would like to hear them admit they were wrong about my character and anyone else they insulted for not jumping on the conspiracy theory bandwagon.



posted on Sep, 26 2011 @ 09:31 PM
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Originally posted by Klassified
reply to post by InfaRedMan
 


So what! They might have been wrong in this instance. And many others too. Well, lets go back and crucify some others in the past who weren't quite right either, but still added to our knowledge. Damn them for challenging the prevalent "facts" of their day.


A lot of people get tired of so much bandwidth being taken up with ignorant nonsense... and let's be honest... most of it is! I sympathise with the members who don't want to give the nonsense bringers a free pass. If someone speaks crap and carries on like a child, they deserve to be accountable. Action/Reaction... that's the reality of how the world works! Perhaps if it turns out bad for some people they may demand a higher standard of evidence the next time. If they do, then they have evolved.


Originally posted by Klassified
reply to post by InfaRedMan
I am pleased with the scientific progress made in my lifetime. But I won't quote them or turn to them as an infallible source. Or as the gods who have spoken. Which is how some of you treat them.


I'm more likely to believe the scientific method than a YouTubeologist who has no, education, no method, or no checks and balances.


Originally posted by Klassified
reply to post by InfaRedMan
The glass house is lived in by those who won't question conventions and status quo's. Those who treat the scientific community like the congregation of the Catholic church treats the Pope.


You know what... I can't think of one time when a Youtuber got it right and science got it wrong. Can you? You're batting for the losing side mate... but hey... that's you're prerogative. Just make sure not to bitch and moan next time you get it wrong and don't be surprised when people take you to task.

IRM

edit on 26/9/11 by InfaRedMan because: Simplified my text for the Elenincompoops!



posted on Sep, 26 2011 @ 09:51 PM
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reply to post by stereologist
 

Linky


George S. Ohm (Ohm's Law)
Ohm's initial publication was met with ridicule and dismissal; called "a tissue of naked fantasy." Approx. twenty years passed before scientists began to recognize its great importance. See M. Schagrin, "Resistance to Ohm's Law," American Journal of Physics, #31 pp536-547 1963.


Josiah C. Nott (Mosquito transmission of Yellow Fever, Malaria)
Fought an uphill battle against the "toxic gases from swamps" theory of Malaria, etc. His theory was ignored for three decades, then championed by C. Finlay and others, who were ignored an additional two decades (ridiculed as "mosquito men" self-deluded crackpots,) finally Walter Reed penetrated the disbelief ca. 1900, yet still years later the same scoffing halted the eradication of mosquitos during construction of the Panama Canal.


Wright bros (flying machines)
After their Kitty Hawk success, The Wrights flew their machine in open fields next to a busy rail line in Dayton Ohio for almost an entire year. American authorities refused to come to the demos, and Scientific American Magazine published stories about "The Lying Brothers." Even the local Dayton newspapers never sent a reporter (but they did complain about all the letters they were receiving from local "crazies" who reported the many flights.) Finally the Wrights packed up and moved to Europe, where they caused an overnight sensation and sold aircraft contracts to France, Germany, Britain, etc.


George Zweig (quark theory)
Zweig published quark theory at CERN in 1964 (calling them 'aces'), but everyone knows that no particle can have 1/3 electric charge. Rather than receiving recognition, he encountered stiff barriers and was accused of being a charlatan.



"Men show their character in nothing more clearly than by what they think laughable." -J. W. Goethe


It's those delusionals that have been responsible for much of what we know today Stereologist. Are all theories proposed good? Not by any means. But even good scientists have scoffed at what we think of as accepted science today. And I don't think you and I are any smarter than the academia who had to eat their words.
edit on 9/26/2011 by Klassified because: Add Linky



posted on Sep, 26 2011 @ 09:51 PM
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I learned to wait and see. I learned to listen to different opinions. I learned that it's better to be safe than sorry. Nothing might happen. If it does, I am prepared. That is what I learned.


reply to post by stereologist
 


Since this is the second time I read this type of answer from you today, letting the first one skip, here is a little debate about your assumptions...




That makes no sense. I'll tell you why. Anybody in government or business knows how important it is to protect the assets. You protect those assets by getting people rallied to prevent disaster.


Really? Forget a disaster from space. Think of a disaster from nature. Think of Katrina, think of Japan, were people rallied to prevent disaster ?? Were people rallied to prevent nuclear meltdowns ?? Show me a place on this planet that rallies people to prevent disaster. Just one. Those are empty words, my friend.


If the disaster comes from space are you going to let it happen or are you going to rally the people to devise some plan to attempt to stop the disaster from happening?


Could you define "you" ? You as in the Government? I did ask you today if they would tell us. I did not agree with your answer and here is why. A threat from space (as in a confirmed hit by an asteroid) would be kept secret as long as it takes. Your "you" cannot even find where the UARS crashed for crying out loud ! They did not even know where it would crash, to start with. So you think that if they knew precisely where a danger would hit, they would rally people to it ? First, if they didn't know where it would hit and proclaim it, how would people (worldwide) react? Not good. Second, if they knew where it would hit and proclaim it, what would happen in that region from that moment on? Business as usual as you claim? I seriously question your motives to come out with claims as such...




Allowing the assets to be destroyed is not in the interest of the government. If NASA wants loads of money they can get it by pointing to a threat and then asking for funds to attempt some sort of a rescue. If the destruction would be $100 trillion what would it hurt to give NASA a trillion to try to save the planet?


To save the planet and the a$$es of the "yous" you talk about, I agree. To save a few million ordinary lives? Sorry, I don't buy it. Remember Haiti? How much funds did the "yous" asked to rescue these people? And you want me to believe that it would be any different in a case of an imminent threat from space? Is it written "sucker" all over my forehead?




Every I hear this claim that they would hide it I think of the teenager whispering to themselves, "If I tell myself I'm not pregnant I won't be pregnant." People deal with problems they don't pretend they are not there.


Totally irrelevant analogy.

The Elite, the Government, the "you" would not advertise about an imminent catastrophe. Not until the very last moment. They would announce it just a bit before it hit just to say "We did warn you..." simply to show good face after the events have taken place.

To believe anything less is to live in fantasy. Or with an agenda.

Period.
edit on 26-9-2011 by SonoftheSun because: grammar



posted on Sep, 26 2011 @ 10:12 PM
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reply to post by Klassified
 



It's those delusionals that have been responsible for much of what we know today Stereologist. Are all theories proposed good? Not by any means. But even good scientists have scoffed at what we think of as accepted science today. And I don't think you and I are any smarter than the academia who had to eat their words.

There are a number of people there that I would disagree with the comments. Take Wegener for instance. He proposed continental drift. That theory is wrong and often confused with plate tectonics. They are very different. Wegener's proposal was not original. The curious matching of coastlines was noticed by others. There were many problems with Wegener's work such as knowledge of the ocean basins and his continental drifting was mechanically impossible. It's odd that he would be listed here since his theory did not pan out. He was a stepping stone just as Lamarck was a stepping stone on the way to a better understanding of evolution.

I think the site you linked to is a bit on the sensational side. I have been to many conferences where the snide snickering does occur, but when it comes to the debates there is often seen a lack of substance on both sides of the argument and the sides (often more than 2) head off to collect more evidence in response to the incites provided by the debate.



posted on Sep, 26 2011 @ 10:17 PM
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Originally posted by InfaRedMan

Originally posted by Klassified
reply to post by InfaRedMan
 


So what! They might have been wrong in this instance. And many others too. Well, lets go back and crucify some others in the past who weren't quite right either, but still added to our knowledge. Damn them for challenging the prevalent "facts" of their day.


A lot of people get tired of so much bandwidth being taken up with ignorant nonsense... and let's be honest... most of it is! I sympathise with the members who don't want to give the nonsense bringers a free pass. If someone speaks crap and carries on like a child, they deserve to be accountable. Action/Reaction... that's the reality of how the world works! Perhaps if it turns out bad for some people they may demand a higher standard of evidence the next time. If they do, then they have evolved.


Originally posted by Klassified
reply to post by InfaRedMan
I am pleased with the scientific progress made in my lifetime. But I won't quote them or turn to them as an infallible source. Or as the gods who have spoken. Which is how some of you treat them.


I'm more likely to believe the scientific method than a YouTubeologist who has no, education, no method, or no checks and balances.


Originally posted by Klassified
reply to post by InfaRedMan
The glass house is lived in by those who won't question conventions and status quo's. Those who treat the scientific community like the congregation of the Catholic church treats the Pope.


You know what... I can't think of one time when a Youtuber got it right and science got it wrong. Can you? You're batting for the losing side mate... but hey... that's you're prerogative. Just make sure not to bitch and moan next time you get it wrong and don't be surprised when people take you to task.

IRM

edit on 26/9/11 by InfaRedMan because: Simplified my text for the Elenincompoops!



First, I would refer you to my last 3 posts. It's not so much that I disagree with you or the OP on the basics of your premise. But there have been "nincompoop's" on both sides of this debate since the beginning. There are always those who speak and vehemently defend their view on both sides without true understanding. It's simply par for the course on a public forum.

And just as I made clear above, there are men smarter than you and I who had to eat their words because they made a snap judgement based on the academic consensus of the day. And I would venture to say a few of those who were labeled crackpots and charlatans might have used youtube had they been alive in our time.



posted on Sep, 26 2011 @ 10:25 PM
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reply to post by stereologist
 


If you truly missed the whole point of that post, then I must admit, I am in awe of you. And I can think of nothing else to say. We'll just have to agree to disagree. Until next time sir.



posted on Sep, 26 2011 @ 10:27 PM
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reply to post by SonoftheSun
 



Really? Forget a disaster from space. Think of a disaster from nature. Think of Katrina, think of Japan, were people rallied to prevent disaster ?? Were people rallied to prevent nuclear meltdowns ?? Show me a place on this planet that rallies people to prevent disaster. Just one. Those are empty words, my friend.

You don't read the newspapers do you?
Ever heard of crews sandbagging to prevent floods? Probably not. Get reading my friend.


A threat from space (as in a confirmed hit by an asteroid) would be kept secret as long as it takes. Your "you" cannot even find where the UARS crashed for crying out loud ! They did not even know where it would crash, to start with. So you think that if they knew precisely where a danger would hit, they would rally people to it ? First, if they didn't know where it would hit and proclaim it, how would people (worldwide) react? Not good. Second, if they knew where it would hit and proclaim it, what would happen in that region from that moment on? Business as usual as you claim? I seriously question your motives to come out with claims as such...

Again this is just based on ignorance from a lack of understanding of the situation.

A satellite orbiting the Earth does not have the same incoming trajectory as an asteroid. The asteroid is aimed at the Earth and arrives towards the Earth at 10 or 20 or more thousands of miles per hour. A satellite orbiting the Earth is relative open and breaks into pieces of unknown size at high altitudes where the dynamics of the situation are not predictable. The satellite was small. An asteroid of that size would shatter in the atmosphere and come down as small pieces.

I seriously question why you make such claims when you know that you have made no attempt to read anything posted about the satellite. These issues have been explained many times.


To save the planet and the a$$es of the "yous" you talk about, I agree. To save a few million ordinary lives? Sorry, I don't buy it. Remember Haiti? How much funds did the "yous" asked to rescue these people? And you want me to believe that it would be any different in a case of an imminent threat from space? Is it written "sucker" all over my forehead?

You have lack of education written all over your post. So you noticed that millions spent on Haiti is not the same as billions spent on flood control projects in the US. There are levees all over Louisiana. There are levees along most of the cities of major rivers in the US. There are rescue services and practices for rescues all of the time in the US. There are emergency evacuation routes in the US. There were mandatory evacuations due to a recent hurricane. Sorry, I forgot you have no idea what is happening in the news.


Totally irrelevant analogy.

Not sorry if it stings you.


The Elite, the Government, the "you" would not advertise about an imminent catastrophe. Not until the very last moment.

Repeating a baloney claim makes it look even more like baloney. Your fantasy world is baseless.

More examples of warnings:
tsunami warning systems
new developments in early earthquake warnings
efforts to be able to predict volcanic warnings
satellites to track hurricanes and other large storms
doppler radar and tornado sirens

The government does work to protect its assets. If you say you are not an asset I guess I'll have to believe you.



posted on Sep, 26 2011 @ 11:04 PM
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By all means have your party. Have all the song and dance about being right you want.

Just do it AFTER we know for sure that the ideas were wrong, ok? There's still half a day left where I am (Australia) and a whole day left for half the world.

So yeah, how about we just wait and see a bit longer eh?

*Note that I wasn't an Elenin "doomer" but I have been following the threads in interest*



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