The Case for Satan (Let the Defense speak)

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by ButterCookie

 

. . ."out-of-the box thinking, free-yourself" characteristics are like his father's, Satan (Enki/. . .

You are ignoring what satan means. To me, the "out of the box" is to make himself the supreme God, while only being the highest level god who happens to live on this planet, then on the merit of his supposed rank, he demands worship. His satan-hood comes from his habit of demonstrating his superiority over other gods by leading an alliance of armies to defeat a weaker enemy, then claiming to be the magical cause for this victory, since these people somehow worshiped him instead of the gods of the vanquished, so he ends up being the scourge of the earth, from the viewpoint of the ordinary person.

As far as such can be considered from a rational perspective (admittedly not much, but still), this is one of the descriptive models with a high 'truth' probability.

The main problem as I see it is, that there are so many potential perspectives on this, that the terminology(ies) taken from all the perspectives, become rather confused. I have the distinct impression, that when the various adherers from such parallel or similar groups get together the labelling terminology can lead to, that what's basically the same entity/principle, is seen as an opposite pole.

Mara; the demi-urge; in a more traditional bible-context the OT vs. a NT 'god'; the sumerian good/bad guys god-hierarchy; gunic (~ trinity) models with or without a feminine principle; Satan, Lucifer, the talking snake and assorted adversaries lumped together in one box; colonizing galactic overlords from ET-empires........

And that's not mentioning reptilians living inside the earth, hyperdimensional beings, northern gods, djinns, fairies and pre-adamic mankind. And I guess soon also Gandalf and Sauron, who will get the same half-mythological 'reality' as Merlin.

reply to post by bogomil

. . .basically the same entity/principle, is seen as an opposite pole.

My general rule of thumb is, If you meet someone saying, 'I am God, worship me', then that is not God. God is someone you will never meet or know His name or what He looks like. God needs no service from puny beings He made. He has a full complement of such to praise His every move and word, way up somewhere, where we are never going to go. The war is in our minds, where we need to expel the Satan in our head.
Knowledge will increase and men will run to a fro. Something like that, in the prophecy, and this is what will win. Right now we have this prophesied thing and we can talk to each other from the far sides of the earth and then the "man of sin" is revealed, and can be taken away, that thing which hindered heaven coming to earth. What is it, who is it, what are they saying, what is the deception, what should we do about it? The revealing is the taking away of that bad thing and we need to do it now, and not sit here waiting to be teleported to the mother ship.

jesusdied4us.wordpress.com...

Originally posted by jmdewey60
The war is in our minds, where we need to expel the Satan in our head.

You might find this thread worth discussion.

A call to reason

With Love,

Your Brother

Originally posted by ButterCookie

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by MasterGemini

 

The fruit of tree of the knowledge of good and evil represents the ignorance introduced in the fall of consciousness into duality and of should and should not. It may seem a contradition when God tells Adam and Eve that they "should not" eat of this tree, but it was only good advice, the consequences of which were dire.

The tree of life is unitive and non-dualistic, and therefore represents consciousness in eternity without separation.

How was that 'good' advice? 'Do not partake in knowledge and wisdom?"

That sounds like "Stay dumb you ignorant slave. I won't be able to control you if you gain intelligence".

No?

Sadly, you missed the point. All wisdom and intelligence resides in the holy spirit and is available via the tree of life. Everything else is dualistic and represents a completely different type of knowledge.

By eating of the tree of the duality of good and evil, they were removed from a direct, experiencial gnosis, or true knowledge and wisdom, which leads to life.

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil leads to destruction, separation from the Godhead, and therefore death of the soul.

The biggest con in histroy was god convincing us that he was the 'good' guy. I wouldn't follow the genocidal judgmental angry god of the old testament. He was a tyrant. What is satan ever guilty of? sure he gets blamed for everything... But what has he ever done wrong? He gave us the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil... Without it we would still be gods pets living in his little garden.

Originally posted by hudsonhawk69


The biggest con in histroy was god convincing us that he was the 'good' guy. I wouldn't follow the genocidal judgmental angry god of the old testament. He was a tyrant. What is satan ever guilty of? sure he gets blamed for everything... But what has he ever done wrong? He gave us the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil... Without it we would still be gods pets living in his little garden.

You may want to think about the whole scheme of things differently, maybe by reading the Book of Job and think about if the Satan was really just someone making a suggestion, and that the one who was branded by the writers as, Yahweh, once the story got going, was really the one playing the role of Satan.Lucky for us, we have this thing called the New Testament where we get to trade in the old god for a new God.

reply to post by jmdewey60

There's nothing in Job to suggest that Yahweh was the only playing the role of Satan. Just for the record. But I agree that we got a whole new God of love through Jesus Christ, without compromise and without parallel. Even still, that new covenant was prophesied, and Jesus relied upon those prophesies in part, to direct his path, while turning a few things in new directions, and reframing everything from his own perspective.

reply to post by jmdewey60


LOL! Sorry but you make no sense, you say the OT god is different from the NT, i hope you know that your god never changes. You can't "trade" a god for the same god. Anyway your religion is null-and-void: Doesn't have its own history (the jews made one for it), doesn't know the facts and can't see their own bible when its right infront of them, christians didn't write the bible, and the bible has nothing of its own and neither does it's god, and you dont even know what the purpose of christianity is. Quite funny

Well, i hope you enjoy believing in a obsolete religion.
"It has served us well, this myth of Christ"
-Pope Leo X

Originally posted by jmdewey60
You may want to think about the whole scheme of things differently, maybe by reading the Book of Job and think about if the Satan was really just someone making a suggestion, and that the one who was branded by the writers as, Yahweh, once the story got going, was really the one playing the role of Satan.Lucky for us, we have this thing called the New Testament where we get to trade in the old god for a new God.

I believe that history is written by the victors and that what has actually happenend in the past is often different from what history tells us happened in the past. I hope that makes sence.

It is fortunate that jesus christ came a gave christianity a god of love... But, there is a theory that is based upon the dead sea scrolls. It states that modern christianity was actually given to us by the apostle paul. That he developed modern christianinty while studying at Quamran settlement.
To believe that the bible is an acurate historical document in regard to this thread would be naive

reply to post by NZkraw

. . .you dont even know what the purpose of christianity is.

To get out from under a tribal concept of a jealous (hates the fact that not all the gods, over the other tribes, bow down and serve him) god, and to understand a God who created and rules over the entire universe.

reply to post by hudsonhawk69

That he developed modern christianinty while studying at Quamran settlement.

Galatians 1:17
nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before me, but right away I departed to Arabia, and then returned to Damascus.

A little mysterious, what Paul says so I can imagine people would come up with theories. Maybe he met with former disciples of The Baptist who were hiding out a bit.

If you are going to use the Holy Bible as evidence then why not use the whole thing instead of just parts. And why lie?

Here are my issues with your story:

1)The Holy Bible says Satan was kicked out of Heaven for rebelling against God BEFORE he came to Earth. He even influenced one third of the angels with his propaganda.

2)The Holy Bible describes the Garden of Eden as Paradise not slavery.

3) The Holy Bible says there was no sex until Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden (any being that listens to satan seems to get "kicked out" of paradise i.e. heaven/the garden).

4) The Holy Bible says there was no murder until Cain killed Able. In fact, the Holy Bible says there was no sin until satan deceived Eve.

5) You say there were hundreds of "gods" and the Lord God was just their leader. You say these "gods" were raping and torturing the women on Earth. You also say that satan was the ONLY one of these "gods" to be kind to the humans because all the other "gods" were raping, enslaving and torturing.

None of this makes any sense! There is no record of ANY violence, sex, or anything else you mentioned in your story in the Holy Bible until AFTER Adam and Eve were kicked out of the PARADISE that was the Garden of Eden. The only reason why they were kicked out was because satan influenced them to disobey God. This is all AFTER satan did the same thing in heaven resulting in him and only God knows how many angels getting kicked out. This is the guy who you say is your hero??

Ok so satan "enlightens" Adam and Eve, then what? They just quit being slaves and nobody raped them any more? No one killed them? They just left free to do whatever they wanted? What happened to all the other people? Where did all the "gods" go? When did they leave? Who taught all the other humans to survive? Remember you said that humans were constantly getting raped and tortured so that means that all the other "gods" were evil too, the only nice one was satan.

You fail to mention anything people might have done to be punished or killed. You make it sound as if no one deserved to die ever. We kill people all the time even to this day! You mean to tell me the POTUS can order Osama Bin Laden to be killed but GOD Almighty is not allowed to destroy his own creation if he so chooses? You believe a judge can order someone put to death but GOD can't? I want you to honestly answer that question.

If satan is your hero and the hero of mankind WHERE IS HE?? Why is he not here helping you now? He freed the slaves, gave them some knowledge then got on his spaceship (with the Lord God and all the other evil "gods") and left? Where id they go? Why did they leave? We still have plenty of gold left on Earth. You are saying satan freed the slaves then stuck around for millennia just hanging around chilling? Adam, Noah, Job all the way up to Jesus crucifixion?? You do recall satan tempting Jesus when he was in the wilderness for 40 days and 40 nights right?

What about Jesus? You story makes no mention of him. Did not Jesus renounce satan? Did not Jesus say satan was evil and the devil? Do you think Jesus was lying? Have you EVER heard anything bad or evil about Jesus?

I would recommend you repent for even writing this blasphemous story. This story was so disrespectful and flabbergastingly ignorant that it's amazing!! When people punish other bad people it is perfectly normal but if GOD your creator does it you consider him evil

If i grow a garden and kill all the weeds and then pick a few roses off of a bush for my wife will all the other plants call me evil? We are Gods garden and he is free to do what he wants with us.

Stop listening to satan before he gets you kicked out of paradise too, he has a history of doing that.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by hudsonhawk69

 

That he developed modern christianinty while studying at Quamran settlement.

Galatians 1:17
nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before me, but right away I departed to Arabia, and then returned to Damascus.

A little mysterious, what Paul says so I can imagine people would come up with theories. Maybe he met with former disciples of The Baptist who were hiding out a bit.

UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM..................

It's been a while since I read the book from memory the damascus scroll found with the dead sea scrolls indicates the possibility that after saul was struck blind by god he may have spent time studying in a essene collony in quamran ... where he became known as paul. It is believed by the writers of the book (the dead sea scrolls deception) that there was also a movement involving jesus' brother to have jesus assassinated. The thoery is put forward that jesus true message was lost. There were so mant faction vying for power the either bastardised or sunk jesus message. Paving the way for paul to take his own sipn on jesus message to the world.

The moral of the story is that the bible has many truths in it but to assume that it has remained completely unchanged for milenia is a little far fetched. The bible has had many political and spiritual infuences involved in it's writing and interpretation.

If we are to take the bible as the only authority on the topic of satan being evil... Than it will probably indicate that satan is evil. No big supprise considering the bible is supposedly written by gods inspiration. Unfortunately as the creator of this tread has shown there is significant evidence in the bible itself to indicate that god has in the past been a very unplesant god, guilty of doing very ungodly things.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NZkraw

 

. . .you dont even know what the purpose of christianity is.

To get out from under a tribal concept of a jealous (hates the fact that not all the gods, over the other tribes, bow down and serve him) god, and to understand a God who created and rules over the entire universe.

Science and physics explains the universe and the galaxies, stars, and planets in it...

no god needed for that.

As a child, and brainwashed up into Christianity, I always wondered why an omnipotent being is on Earth waging wars...

Didn't make since,

Originally posted by ProphecyPhD
If you are going to use the Holy Bible as evidence then why not use the whole thing instead of just parts. And why lie?

Here are my issues with your story:

1)The Holy Bible says Satan was kicked out of Heaven for rebelling against God BEFORE he came to Earth. He even influenced one third of the angels with his propaganda.

2)The Holy Bible describes the Garden of Eden as Paradise not slavery.

3) The Holy Bible says there was no sex until Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden (any being that listens to satan seems to get "kicked out" of paradise i.e. heaven/the garden).

4) The Holy Bible says there was no murder until Cain killed Able. In fact, the Holy Bible says there was no sin until satan deceived Eve.

5) You say there were hundreds of "gods" and the Lord God was just their leader. You say these "gods" were raping and torturing the women on Earth. You also say that satan was the ONLY one of these "gods" to be kind to the humans because all the other "gods" were raping, enslaving and torturing.

None of this makes any sense! There is no record of ANY violence, sex, or anything else you mentioned in your story in the Holy Bible until AFTER Adam and Eve were kicked out of the PARADISE that was the Garden of Eden. The only reason why they were kicked out was because satan influenced them to disobey God. This is all AFTER satan did the same thing in heaven resulting in him and only God knows how many angels getting kicked out. This is the guy who you say is your hero??

Ok so satan "enlightens" Adam and Eve, then what? They just quit being slaves and nobody raped them any more? No one killed them? They just left free to do whatever they wanted?

What happened to all the other people? Where did all the "gods" go? When did they leave? Who taught all the other humans to survive? Remember you said that humans were constantly getting raped and tortured so that means that all the other "gods" were evil too, the only nice one was satan.

You fail to mention anything people might have done to be punished or killed. You make it sound as if no one deserved to die ever. We kill people all the time even to this day! You mean to tell me the POTUS can order Osama Bin Laden to be killed but GOD Almighty is not allowed to destroy his own creation if he so chooses?

You believe a judge can order someone put to death but GOD can't?

I want you to honestly answer that question.

If satan is your hero and the hero of mankind WHERE IS HE?? Why is he not here helping you now?

He freed the slaves, gave them some knowledge then got on his spaceship (with the Lord God and all the other evil "gods") and left? Where id they go? Why did they leave? We still have plenty of gold left on Earth. You are saying satan freed the slaves then stuck around for millennia just hanging around chilling?

Adam, Noah, Job all the way up to Jesus crucifixion?? You do recall satan tempting Jesus when he was in the wilderness for 40 days and 40 nights right?

What about Jesus? You story makes no mention of him. Did not Jesus renounce satan? Did not Jesus say satan was evil and the devil? Do you think Jesus was lying? Have you EVER heard anything bad or evil about Jesus?

I would recommend you repent for even writing this blasphemous story. This story was so disrespectful and flabbergastingly ignorant that it's amazing!! When people punish other bad people it is perfectly normal but if GOD your creator does it you consider him evil

If i grow a garden and kill all the weeds and then pick a few roses off of a bush for my wife will all the other plants call me evil? We are Gods garden and he is free to do what he wants with us.

Stop listening to satan before he gets you kicked out of paradise too, he has a history of doing that.

edit on 9/27/2011 by ProphecyPhD because: If i grow a garden and kill all the weeds and then pick a few roses off of a bush for my wife will all the other plants call me evil? We are Gods garden and he is free to do what he wants with us.

History is ALWAYS written slanted toward the victor...

OF COURSE a slave gold-mine is going to be described as paradise...(THINK!! How are SLAVES in paradise?)
My story did make mention of Jesus (you just skipped over that part), and he is god's son, killed by the Lord God.

Remember, god and lord god are two different gods and are at war with each other.

God slowly becomes referred to as 'satan', as he betrays (and rightfully so) the evil lord god.

reply to post by ButterCookie


so you won't answer or address ANY of the topics i discussed?? Please answer at least one of them.

History is ALWAYS written slanted toward the victor...

OF COURSE a slave gold-mine is going to be described as paradise...(THINK!! How are SLAVES in paradise?)
My story did make mention of Jesus (you just skipped over that part), and he is god's son, killed by the Lord God.

Remember, god and lord god are two different gods and are at war with each other.

God slowly becomes referred to as 'satan', as he betrays (and rightfully so) the evil lord god.

How can God be referred to as satan? The only person saying that is YOU.

The only person saying humans were gold slave miners is YOU.

Where do you get this idea from

You did NOT read that in the Holy Bible, where did you get that idea from