The Case for Satan (Let the Defense speak)

Read it. It was a rambling work of fiction...just like the Bible.

Why couldn't god just have said "I'm sorry" no... he had to make him self a mortal with superpowers, like raising the dead, healing the blind, the ability to walk on water. Then sacrifice himself... to himself, before feeding himself to his disciples... to wash the sins of humankind, which he could have prevented if he had just moved the tree out of arms reach of the first couple. Or made it invisible.

Same deal with satan, god knew this thing would be around... he knew, yet did nothing to stop it.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

Granted god isn't a man, but it applies to it. Yes the concept of god to me is an 'it', not a he or a she.
Blame god for all the evil, for it failed to stop the only evil at the time.

So god, any god, doesn't give a rats ass what happens to us or this planet, but we will be judged by an absentee 'father'? to 'hell' with that.

Only Thor helped mankind... look around no more Ice Demons!

I only had one coffee this morning.

You know that messiahanity and luciferianism are both cut from the same cloth right? Your arguement is neither here nor there because the LORD god and lucifer are one and the same. Arguing over who is the bigger douche bag is a bit like arguing over which political party to vote for, a waste of time. Religion was created to distort the truth, the bible/(insert prefered sacred book here) was screwed with to mire nuggets of gold within the cesspot of deceptions everytime the slaves looked as if they might be gaining ground on the overlords in the information war, different century new distortion. What do you think the dark ages were about??
The truth is we dont need our overlords, gods and preists, and the bible if you read it properly screams this fact, it also promotes justice for the oppressed, warns about the evils of usury and loan sharks, is anti globalist and hints at a creator who may actually love us..... But you dont want to see these little golden nuggets of truth do you? You'd rather be fooled by the mud. Ah yes defend Satan the LORD god of HOSTS, ignore your creator the God of the LIVING. Who needs to deny ignorence right?
As for the mud itself, did you ever stop to consider that maybe just maybe, the creator didnt say or do those things but possibly the leaders or the lord god of HOSTS deceived the Israelites in the same way Bush decieved the Americans? Moses was a prince of Egypt remember. Perhaps the lesson we could take from the old testament is a cautionary one of what can happen when a group of people are manipulated to believe another group of people are evil/unclean/sinners/enemies of god etc........ dont think its a lesson we are getting through our thick skulls somehow.
Maybe its time for us to stop listening to what the "experts" say and start seeking the voice of our creator? Get his or her side of the story first hand perhaps?
Or you could just keep debating over smoke screens, whatever floats your boat.

reply to post by Rhebefree


Star to your recent post, but consider that the whole thing ALSO can be seen as a symbolic expression of principles from a non-literalist perspective.

Self-proclaimed 'authority' with its self-proclaimed rules (authority is always right, according to authority), vs. liberal freedom-fighting.

And you don't even need any 'gods' in that scenario.

Originally posted by NZkraw
Loved the thread ButterCookie

Heaps of accusative information that many people dont see in their own bible, or cant see because of their following (christianity) due to lack of reason, or intelligence.

To those out there that are saying that the OP doesn't matter or whatever it is you reckon, Satanism is not a plight against christianity, nor did Satanism come around BECAUSE of christianity. Actually, Satanism has been around THOUSANDS of years before all this church dogma and lies. Satanism/Luciferianism is a path that rebels against this tyrannical "lord", to stand for truth and enlightenment, also for understanding and gain of knowledge.

It is so true that lord god didn't want us to be clever, then we wouldn't be un-questioning, un-opposing, un-knowing, and the later. Lucifer knew that after Project-Earth was over that mankind would be exterminated like the insects we are, are he stood up for us, he gave us the wisdom we needed and gave us knowledge from the metaphorical 'tree of knowledge'. As the bible says "you shall know them for their fruit", meaning you shall know them for their knowledge.
lord god, didn't like knowledge and the people that did have this were classed as having "bad fruit" and should thus get destroyed.

Lord god demands that we believe everything that he tells us, and that we do everything that he says without questioning:Baph-o-met wouldn't hurt a fly. “Destroy a tribe including the women, children and animals down to last one? (Joshua 6:21). No problem. Murder 5 kingdoms of people and keep 32,000 virgins girls “for yourselves?” (Numbers 31:7-35) Why of course. Uh…wait a minute, this doesn’t seem very moral or very nice.” “SILENCE FOOL. HOW DARE YOU QUESTION ME. I AM GOD, ALL-KNOWING, INFALLIBLE, UNQUESTIONABLE, UN-UNDERSTANDABLE AND YOU MUST OBEY ME WITHOUT HESITATION. ACCEPT WHAT I SAY ON FAITH. BURN THOSE WHO DARE QUESTION MY WORD. DESTROY THEIR BOOKS. SHUT DOWN THEIR SCHOOLS. TELL THEM THAT DISOBEDIENCE MEANS THAT THEY WILL BURN FOREVER AND EVER, IN UNIMAGINABLE AGONY FOR ALL ETERNITY, AND REMEMBER THAT YOU WILL SUFFER THE SAME FATE UNLESS YOU GO OUT AND TELL THEM THIS. DON’T YOU DARE APPLY THE PART OF THE BIBLE WHERE IT SAYS “BY THEIR FRUITS SHALL YOU KNOW THEM” TO MY FRUITS AND OH, YEAH, TELL YOUR CHILDREN HOW MUCH I REALLY LOVE YOU ALL.” “Yes Sir, God Sir, whatever you say. See, here I am burning their books, pulling out their fingernails, torturing them for questioning Church dogma, banning the use of anesthetic in child-bearing (since the pain is their just punishment for the single sin of their long-dead ancestors, Adam and Eve), selling them into slavery, raping their wives, dashing their children against rocks…what did that child do to deserve this? Help! I thought an improper thought! Help me to blind my mind God, help me to not see what my reason tells me. Let me repress thoughts of natural sexual desire, doubts about you and your orders, feelings of tolerance or putting myself in my neighbor’s shoes. Let me follow no morality but that which you say is moral.” Now we ask you, who represents the greater evil?

Oh wow!! 100 stars for this comment!!!

Couldn'tve said it better!!! (Yes sir god, whatever you say, god...heheheheheheh)

Originally posted by LightAssassin
reply to post by ButterCookie

 

Have you read Robert Morning Sky's Terra Papers?

I have to say, Old Testament God sounds like En-lil.

edit on 26-9-2011 by LightAssassin because: (no reason given)

yes, and I loved it!!

God= Enki
Lord God= Enlil

God=good
Lord God=bad

reply to post by NZkraw


It's not referencing the same thing. Matthew is discussing false prophets, and the bad fruit they bear, fruit being a metaphor for bad info. Read the previous line and post line to Matthew 7:16.

And I was surprised and thanking you for re-iterating, in one post, everything I believe in. Tone doesn't come across via text, unfortunately. I probably should have used a smile face...

reply to post by NZkraw


That link I gave you is missing page 21...which is an important page. Strangely it wasn't missing several weeks ago.

A better link (which is missing half of page 53...grrrr...)

You might need to cross-reference a few copies to get the whole story. Something funny is going on.


Found one

I just realised you don’t need space aliens to make this story work

There is evidence of a number of different pre-human hominids – some are thought to have been giants (12ft tall remains have been found) and Neanderthals are known to have been intelligent

Ok so, pre-human hominids capture some of our early ancestors and start breeding them for certain traits or to do some task (mining perhaps) – these pre-human hominids just had to be smarter than we where back then

We did it with wolfs to get dogs which we used for guarding camps and hunting (I don’t think super intelligence would be needed for this, I bet a even a religious fundamentalist could manage this much)


If pre-human hominids bred for intelligence (which they would have to get efficient miners), they might not have realised when our ancestors became smarter than they where

Our ancestors could have escaped back into the wild and due to the higher intelligence, they would have an evolutionary advantage over our creators (humans could also be self selecting for intelligence by this point) – and if they had language a story of what happened could have been passed on



Of cause this would mean bible god was just another evolving hominid and one that in the end couldn’t compete with us

Oh the irony of that is so delicious it has to be fattening

Originally posted by racasan
I just realised you don’t need space aliens to make this story work

There is evidence of a number of different pre-human hominids – some are thought to have been giants (12ft tall remains have been found) and Neanderthals are known to have been intelligent

Ok so, pre-human hominids capture some of our early ancestors and start breeding them for certain traits or to do some task (mining perhaps) – these pre-human hominids just had to be smarter than we where back then

We did it with wolfs to get dogs which we used for guarding camps and hunting (I don’t think super intelligence would be needed for this, I bet a even a religious fundamentalist could manage this much)


If pre-human hominids bred for intelligence (which they would have to get efficient miners), they might not have realised when our ancestors became smarter than they where

Our ancestors could have escaped back into the wild and due to the higher intelligence, they would have an evolutionary advantage over our creators (humans could also be self selecting for intelligence by this point) – and if they had language a story of what happened could have been passed on



Of cause this would mean bible god was just another evolving hominid and one that in the end couldn’t compete with us

Oh the irony of that is so delicious it has to be fattening

Or Atlantis, Lemuria, Hyperborea or interdimensional beings. It really doesn't matter except for the mindset craving premature absolute answers at any cost.

Whatever real knowledge we have at any given time, is what we operate with, and speculations are optional alternatives in case plan A collapses.

I really enjoyed this thread by the OP. It's quite believeable IMO.

I can understand and respect your point of view, BC. Allow me to give you a detailed response as to some logical fallacies which are common in modern Christianity. These in turn lead towards confusion and dichotomies *edit in your own 'story'.

Anyways... the first problem is that you, and many other christians don't and have not ever read hebrew. I'm sorry, but this is a prerequisite towards understanding the bible in it's fullest. You might ask why. The reason is that as you transliterate a book or document, the meaning changes. There are some words which are incredibly relevant that are not understood because they don't or didn't translate well.

The first is Satan. There are three satan's technically listed in the bible that I'm aware of. The first is satan - a generic term for adversary. The second is ha-satan - "The Adversary" or "The accuser" or "The great adversary". This is the name formally ascribed to Lucifer. There is, finally, 'the dragon' or the 'great dragon'. While many ascribe this to be Lucifer, there is compelling evidence that it is another entity altogether.

www.aletheiacollege.net...

There is also the variation between GOD and the LORD. In hebrew, these are markedly different entities; the reason that modern christians believe them to be the same primarily can lay directly on the catholic church and their desire in centuries gone by to move from a quasi-polytheism to a more monotheistic culture. God is the creator of all things; a benevolent somewhat lonely and overbearing father figure for the universe. God is elohim and has many names. Lord is a more physical, directly controlling leader figure. Often it's ascribed to a entity who dwelled directly in the tabernacle. Some believe it was whoever the current religious leader was, due to heavy influence from the egyptians from whom they'd escaped bondage. The lord is Adonai. While many like to say Adonai is Jesus, you'll have to decide for yourself. I personally do not feel that he is. A great book for expanding your horizons is called 'god: a biography' - it is written in the respect that we can view God's growth emotionally as a creator/father by watching how he handled the people through the books of the old testament.

Satan and Ha-Satan; God and LORD; They are NOT the same. There is far more detail on these two subtle delineations that people fail to understand than I have room for on this webforum. Moreover - and let me make this clear - I'm not a biblical scholar. I'm simply a student of many religions, a deist (Classical sense, google it)with a more christian slant than others. As such, I'm still learning myself.

Ok, with that out of the way, let's move on to another fundamental fallacy that you present here - That the books of the modern bibles are the only ones which were/are part of the old testament. I was privy to have a circa 1790's bible for many years. I have since returned it to the family to whom it originally belonged after finding them. It contained a few books modern versions do not. There are a great many books which were removed in the 1880's with the publishing of the english bible, and later again in the American Standard bible around 1900. Many of the books have been regarded as canon by the catholic church and offer interesting perspectives on the events of the bible. These books are commonly regarded as 'the apocrypha'.

The apocrypha has a great deal of information about 'the devil' satanael, the grigori, mastema, etc. It has interesting correlation to sumerian texts, for those who display an interest.

These are important pieces of work which were found in the dead sea scrolls which are approximately 2000 years old.

Yet we omit them as part of our modern teaching because someone made the decision in the 1800's to remove them and then everyone else copying them included that change.

I believe this is where I put deny ignorance in caps.

reply to post by rlnochance


Love it!

LoL I was too lazy to type all this (I was the first reply). They always confuse Roman Catholicism with Christianity and the Church. LoL

Good to know others are doing their due diligence, don't expect the haters to accept it though.

Originally posted by ButterCookie
The defense rests.

Comments???

Put like that it sums things up. The chuch didn't realise it was keeping a tally of all the murders done in the name of God.

It's bound to annoy people but since when has the truth been convenient for the God squad.

reply to post by rlnochance


this is why I will only read youngs literal translation version of the bible, well known fact an english king edited one for his own gain sometime in the medeival period, it says in the damned book not to alter it =/

on topic, you just blew my mind. I have heard many, many stories about how the opposite of the bible is true, or how lucifer is quite blatently trying to prevent the entirety of humanity, two at the time? or not...from being slaves.

one reason why I distance myself from the bible entirely, and prefer to use the term "creator of the universe" instead of god. its more specific to my belief, and doesn't contain inevitable burning for no reason.

I asked god for ten years why he's stomping on the human race with no answer, my gut tells me the character represented by him is a sadistic [guess]. if we're doing something wrong why? how? specifically what? and don't get me started on the church who don't even stick by the book.

ed: I don't buy the "we're not meant to understand it" deal either, this world is broken and gods answer is 'just chill and after you die you can worship me forever.' uh.....k then brah...

reply to post by whatsinaname



My point is that you need an accurate and moreover COMPLETE bible to even begin to approach it, instead we casually hand out bibles like they're candy without proof checking them or even trying to see about some measure of accuracy. At LEAST if people insist on debating it they should have the fundamentals down, eh? Instead they memorize erroneous passages as law while missing the point entirely.

As to why god would treat you/the world/etc like this:

Do you think GM is responsible for the way the owners of the car treat it?

Moreover, what if KIA was out to sabotage your car? GM gave you a warranty, sure, but it doesn't cover neglect or vandalism. Guess you should sock some money away under your mattress or have an 'insurance' policy, huh? Thankfully GM saw the problem and sent this agent around a few thousand years ago to ask you to sign up, commit in spirit only - do it any time and you're covered.

See? Anything makes sense when you reduce it to car-talk.

1Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;

2I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:

3And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.

4For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

5I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

6That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

8Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.

9Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

10Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?

11Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

12I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

13I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.

14Thus saith the LORD, The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine: they shall come after thee; in chains they shall come over, and they shall fall down unto thee, they shall make supplication unto thee, saying, Surely God is in thee; and there is none else, there is no God.

15Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.

16They shall be ashamed, and also confounded, all of them: they shall go to confusion together that are makers of idols.

17But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

18For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

19I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.

20Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save.

21Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

22Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

23I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

24Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

25In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

There is only God. Satan is a creation in the minds of men who judge this world, rather than seeing the divine in all. Idolaters each and every one who proclaims God is here or God is there, but not over here or over there.

Every man who has fell upon his knees, falls at the command of God, and every Man has fallen.

With Love,

Your Brother

reply to post by rlnochance


I have nothing against competence, quite the contrary. But the are contexts fitted for competence, and then there are contexts where competence shouldn't be part of the situation.

You have just succeeded on presenting 'true' christianity as an elitist phenomenon, where the common non-classical-linguist is depending on specialists for 'correct' linguistic interpretation. Just as other 'true' christians claim a 'holy spirit', knowledge of a secret bible-code, patterning the bible's various parts into a whole or a special understanding of symbols.

Now if christians could keep that kind of quibblings between themselves (buddhists can), there would be no need for anybody from the 'outside' to have interest in such. But with the missionary christian's invasive ideology and attitudes, it becomes everybody's problem.

So personally I feel, that any elitist claims from christian direction is a potential threat to the wellbeing of mankind. When the invasive parts of christianity feel challenged (also by each other), it's time to take precautionary measures, even for non-theists.

reply to post by bogomil


Elitist? You seriously dredged up elitism as a means of refuting what I've said - then compare it to secret bible codes and what not when I'm talking straight fact?! Unreal. That's called a straw man argument, and holds no water.

Your analogy is akin to saying that you shouldn't need to know how to multiply or divide to be able to do algebra, because it's elitist to be non-inclusive to people who don't understand the concepts.

My goal here, if anything, was to at least show that most people are dealing with the product of (gasp) thousands of years, translations, several languages, modifications, etc and that if they want to study the matter they should at least try to get as close to the source as possible so as to best understand it. If you want to misinterpret that as some kind of christian crusade, that's your prerogative (despite the fact I already stated I'm a classical diest w/ a christian slant - primarily due to upbringing).

FACT: The bible wasn't written in english originally
FACT: English and Hebrew are different languages with different forms
FACT: There are words that didn't translate right which hinder people's understandings.

Personally I'd recommend the 'dead sea scrolls bible'. It's probably as accurate as you're going to get in an english context. Not that you have any interest, I guess that's more aimed at people who might.

reply to post by rlnochance


everyday I see something more absurd and horrific in the news and I can 'visualize' their pain, no god of truth justice honor valour, hope, faith, insert more positive biased words here, would let this occur, he turned people to salt for less apparently. I want an answer and I've wanted one for a long time. we all die eventually sure but if I obtained and posted images from the worst case scenario's from africa I would likely A be banned outright and B make half the people in the room puke their guts out literally.

the point is god, the real god, isn't the one depicted in that book. i don't care if its in hebrew or swahili.

ed: if even one of you can show me where im wrong without using the words burn and hell I would be eternaly thankful.