The Irvine 11: Islamophobia is alive and well

Originally posted by Shamatt
reply to post by SplitInfinity

 

Yes, you are right, The US - and other western countries, have picked and chosen their friends over the years. Being there to help them set up an industry (From which you will profit greatly at every step) or to help fight the Russians, for example. And of course they were happy for the help. But this time they soldiers are uninvited and unwanted. The diference is guest or trespasser, I suppose. Invited in or asked to leave. And if you are asked to leave and don't...... It is not the same as being there to help them when this time they don't want your help. Any way. I suppose as many of them are happy you are there helping to reconstruct as there are unhappy and biting at your ankles. Or winning, as they will see it when you all do finally pull out, and your very unclear objectives appear to have been completely unmet. Oh, the UK are just as guilty. It isn't just the US, I'm not picking on you! And you have to ask yourslef why there is the need for so much reconstruction. And why so many from accross the region flocked to Afganistan and Iraq in order to join their brothers against the US invaders, thus swelling the enimy ranks and making the whole problem worse. Dude, what a mess. And don't ask me what the answer is, I don't know. It seems to have gone too far. The US will pull out as planned I guess, the 'enimy' will claim victory as the US - whichever way they spin ot for domestic consumption - will not have acheived any of the goals they stated allong the way - except perhaps killing OBL, and they did that in PAKISTAN, which is not even supposed to be part of the arena. (If you believe that story) I think this is why the killings are being stepped up now by the Obama admin...... Dismantle enough of the current setup you can claim a win on the Al Qaeda when the time comes. Enough people will buy this to win the next election. You wait and see.

Yes...it is a mess...but if you want someone to blame...you have to look at the Muslim Terrorists who caused the U.S. to react. You have to look at all the corrupt Middle Eastern Leaders who subvert their own people to stay in power so they can attain riches...all the while playing a double standard of funding Madrassas that are breading grounds for extremests and terrorists. They steal from the populous all the while secretly condeming the supposed Great Satan.

Again...after 9/11...what did you and anyone else EXPECT was going to happen? After Pearl Habor...the United States went into a state of TOTAL WAR...and people in the Middle East should be grateful this did not happen again. In comparison...these wars were very subdued and careful not to harm civilians as if the shoe was on the other foot...I am quite certain that those who hate the U.S. would have no problem whatsoever in killing as many of us as possible.

Reguardless of what a person feels was either accomplished or not by the wars...one thing was esstablished...again. ATTACKING THE UNITED STATES IN ANY WAY OR METHOD....HAS VERY DEADLY CONSEQUENCES. Even now that lesson is having effect as intel reports have intercepted various communications between Terrorist Funding Personel and certain countries that covertly fund them. The underlying responce to the solicitors was...the last time we funded you...we ended up with a result of entire counties being occupied and huge amount of American weapons and troops on our door step. This time we will pass. Split Infinity

reply to post by Shamatt


You are WRONG AGAIN.

I had a Muslim roommate free at my expense for more than a year.

At this point, he would tell you the same things I posted above.

Hate is what Islamists feel toward all those not Islamists.

And, quite often for millions--what one faction feels toward the other faction of MUSLIMS!

It doesn't appear to me that your reality testing regarding Islam and muslims is remotely very functional or accurate to reality.

It's difficult to love when there's no truth involved in the lover's construction on reality.

Loving an untrue fantasy is nonsense and not remotely true love.

reply to post by BO XIAN

Hahahahhahahahahaha...you have a hearsay story about some stuff a muslim roommate of yours told you. OF COURSE YOU ARE RIGHT! Everyone else here, (including actual muslims) ARE ALL WRONG!



reply to post by charles1952

Heylo Charles,

My point was that for the crime they were charged with, the punishment they were given was standard to harsh. And my contention is that If it was a slightly different situation (such as some non-muslim group protesting some non-israeli thing), the punishment (or even the charge) wouldn't exist. For the sake of an example I gave the video and that site. While that particular video was not in California, they HAVE had protests in California, and they most certainly have a history of organising such protests (the same as what you saw in the video in several colleges and university campuses throughout the US).

Of course, in the end, this is all what-iffing and hypothesising, and we can't really do or judge what would have happened if this or that had or hadn't occurred, but I'd like to think that judging from other similar situations, that the fallout would be much less.

Originally posted by babloyi
reply to post by BO XIAN

 

Hahahahhahahahahaha...you have a hearsay story about some stuff a muslim roommate of yours told you. OF COURSE YOU ARE RIGHT! Everyone else here, (including actual muslims) ARE ALL WRONG!

.

Actually, all you have to do to verify the assertions I've made is to

READ THE FOUNDING DOCUMENTS OF ISLAM yourself.

Therein you will find that it's quite clearly sanctioned, BTW, to lie, in behalf of Islam's conquest of the rest of the world.

However, if one prefers delusion, illusion, farce, deception

to truth

then . . . anything goes . . . usually, EXCEPT for THE TRUTH.

Those who study birth-rate and survival of cultures have decreed on solid historical background that all Europe is already lost to Islam. And the USA is on the very edge of being lost. If it weren't for the illegal Hispanics and Asians, the USA's way of life and culture would also be too far below the replacement birth rate to survive--in contrast to the birthrate of Muslims already here.

reply to post by BO XIAN

I am glad you mentioned the FOUNDING DOCUMENTS OF ISLAM instead of random roommates. Because now I can bring your attention to this verse:

Surah 10:99
And if thy Lord willed, all who are in the earth would have believed together. Wouldst thou compel men until they are believers? No soul can believe, except by the will of Allah

As for lying to advance Islam....seriously?! And you are telling ME to check the FOUNDING DOCUMENTS. What they say is it is okay to lie about your faith if your life is in danger. Amazing how that was twisted into "lie in behalf of Islam's conquest of the rest of the world".

Originally posted by Shamatt
This could have gone in several forums but decided this was the best fit.

I searched but was surprised not to find this story.

IT appears 11 muslim students stood up to object to a speach made by a visiting Israeli diplomat

Charges against one were dismissed. The others stood trial, accused of interrupting Israeli a]mbassador Michael Oren's February 8, 2010 University of California-Irvine speech, criticizing him and Israeli injustice.

Orange County District Attorney Tony Rackauckas filed misdemeanor criminal charges, accusing them of disturbing a public meeting and engaging in a conspiracy to do so.

A seccond article gives more detail and oppinion

Jewish leaders applauded the verdict. According to Shalom Elcott, Jewish Federation & Family Services president:

The student disruption "crossed the moral, social and intellectual line of civility and tolerance. While we accept the right and requirement of a public institution to provide an unfettered forum for diverse points of view, we do not, nor will be ever, support 'hate speech.' "

In other words, free, honest, accurate comments are hateful when Muslims state them. Jews and Christians can say what they please.

The Council on American-Islamic Relations, Los Angeles (CAIR/LA) headlined, "Muslim Groups Appalled by 'Irvine 11' Guilty Verdict, Declare Travesty of Justice," saying:

"Leaders of four prominent Muslim organizations" expressed outrage over an appalling verdict, "convicting 10 of the 'Irvine 11' students on (unjust) misdemeanor counts...."

Indeed. In America your freedoms and liberties depend on your race and religion.

"You can heckle the President. You can heckle high ranking government officials, but it you heckle an Israeli diplomat you will be prosecuted."

Well, You would be OK if you were white and Jewish I expect.

What is happening America?
I read today about girls being coralled and maced in the high street for being part of a peacfull demonstration - I saw the video, it was sickening.

I read last week about a black man who was put to death for killing a cop - only everyone seems to think he was innocent.

I read about cops beating and killing civilians and not being charged.

I read about a man being beaten for heckling Sarah Palin while she spoke abuot delivering freedom to the middle east - he was dragged out and abused!

What on earth is goin on in the US?

it's people like you causing this stuff,

IF it ever happened in the first place.

read your own links.

Originally posted by Shamatt

Originally posted by DerbyCityLights
Ive said this before and I will say it again. Freedom of speech does NOT equal Freedom of slander. The fact is, they broke the school policy and also broke local law by not protesting in the approved protest area, which was NOT in the auditorium during the speech!

Another thing Im sick pf hearing is how these punks got severly punished. Get over yourself! They ended up with 5 years probation and community service and the 5 years of probation gets reduced to 1 year if they finish the community service before January 2012. Boy, thats harsh for breaking the law

Also, this isn't the first time this group of students have done this type of crap and last time they got let off the hook completely.

edit on 25-9-2011 by DerbyCityLights because: (no reason given)

Speaking the truth is not slander.

And what's this all about? Only permitted to protest in certain designated areas - when did you accept that as an American citizen? You don't feel this is just police state rules - what about YOUR freedoms, my friend? When you find you can only say certain things in certain places without running the risk of picking up a criminal conviction.

You find the rules all too convenient and 'fair' at the moment. Wait untill it is you and yours who are saying the wrong thing in the wrong place. 1984 slightly?

exactly.

just like this stupid thread, that fails in the face of all common sense.

if this was a real time interaction at ats and we heckled your a$$, i suppose you would blow it off as freedom of speech?

ya right, you would be screaming to high heaven that you didn't get your say.

talk about hypocrites and i dam sure don't want to resurrect this dumb thread but i did! lol!

they messed up and you can't admit it. typical.

reply to post by Shamatt


and another thing,

you forget some people have the right to speak, in the US. people paid to hear him.

you think you wouldn't get a bottle in the head if i was trying to listen to a band i like and you were an idiot?

think you would just quit if i interrupted and heckled your head talk? try that in, take your pick, mideast place.

by gone see ya.

they went to HIS speak, lol,

they should let HIM speak. right? what the hell gives them the right to interrupt that?

no wonder you are perplexed why people bomb the # out of you.

can't even follow the rules. lol!!

Originally posted by SplitInfinity

Yes...it is a mess...but if you want someone to blame...you have to look at the Muslim Terrorists who caused the U.S. to react. You have to look at all the corrupt Middle Eastern Leaders who subvert their own people to stay in power so they can attain riches...all the while playing a double standard of funding Madrassas that are breading grounds for extremests and terrorists. They steal from the populous all the while secretly condeming the supposed Great Satan.

Yes, you could blame that event. But perhaps the terrorists would say they did it because of what the US did somewhere else. And you did that because of what they did, and that was done because of what you did...... It is a dumb game to play - look at the Palastinian/Israel situation - they have been blaming each other for generations. Someone has to stand up and be the bigger person, as they say - as I wrote previously.

Originally posted by SplitInfinity

Reguardless of what a person feels was either accomplished or not by the wars...one thing was esstablished...again. ATTACKING THE UNITED STATES IN ANY WAY OR METHOD....HAS VERY DEADLY CONSEQUENCES. Even now that lesson is having effect as intel reports have intercepted various communications between Terrorist Funding Personel and certain countries that covertly fund them. The underlying responce to the solicitors was...the last time we funded you...we ended up with a result of entire counties being occupied and huge amount of American weapons and troops on our door step. This time we will pass. Split Infinity

Yes, that is indeed the party line. It is of course exactlry what we are supposed to think. In reality the US will leave the middle east looking weak. They will not have have acheived their goals, goals which were frequently re-written throughout. The initial premise for at least 1 of the wars having been shown to be a fantasy long before the war ended. And the real truth is that after 9/11 the CIA won the war in Afghanistan in about 10 weeks. The rest was political. Rumsfeld wanted his glory as much as the president did.

The US has lost a lot of credability, and is viewed to be weaker for it. The phrase "Smart bombs in dumb hands" seems to weave it's way through history and back to my ears. Funny how these things keep being true years after they are first said.

reply to post by fooks


Jees dude, who rattled your cage? Here I was having a nice disagrement you come in here spitting venom.

Can't be bothered with you mate. If you can't talk respectfully, even to those with whom you don't agree, then I have no time for you. Go away, gow up, come back and try again when you have learned some respect.

reply to post by BO XIAN


So you say I am wrong then prove I am right by you very next sentiment. Nice. I refer you to the above comments to the lovely fooks, as the same words apply to your good self.

Dear babloyi,

I think you're basically right. (What's wrong with us? How can we carry on a conversation when the rest of the world is hating and shooting bullets? Are we mutants?)

My point was that for the crime they were charged with, the punishment they were given was standard to harsh. And my contention is that If it was a slightly different situation (such as some non-muslim group protesting some non-israeli thing), the punishment (or even the charge) wouldn't exist. For the sake of an example I gave the video and that site. While that particular video was not in California, they HAVE had protests in California, and they most certainly have a history of organising such protests (the same as what you saw in the video in several colleges and university campuses throughout the US).

Of course, in the end, this is all what-iffing and hypothesising, and we can't really do or judge what would have happened if this or that had or hadn't occurred, but I'd like to think that judging from other similar situations, that the fallout would be much less.

My fear is that the mutants will lose. The haters bomb and cut off heads. The leaders who have good principles don't defend them and the other leaders are bold and forceful in their thirst for revenge and destruction. You can see what's happening just in this thread,

I don't want to sound too mystic, but I don't see a solution without God's intervention. Perhaps you do, or maybe someone reading this does. Tell me what it is, please.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by babloyi


Interesting . . .

Appealing to half of a contradictory set of assertions in the founding documents may seem quite erudite . . . even glib.

I consider it a deceptive tactic.

reply to post by BO XIAN

If you're going to be stuck in your opinion and position no matter what the facts say, what's the point of even participating in this discussion?

You first mentioned something about some random roommate as proof.
This was obviously nonsense. So then you brought up how there are "CLEARLY SANCTIONED" proofs in "THE FOUNDING DOCUMENTS OF ISLAM", so I brought proof from those documents that completely negated your claims.
Now you say "Haha! But those documents are contradictory!"...I guess those proofs you mentioned earlier are not so clearly sanctioned anymore, ey?

And you are accusing ME of deception

reply to post by babloyi


There have been a lot of posts on ATS of the founding documents' insturctions for genocide of all who fail to convert.

I'm thinking of searching some out myself but it's not a high priority.

You may consider the bit about my Muslim roommate uninformative.

However, he's quite knowledgeable about Islam--as one of the thousands of descendants of Mohammed.

reply to post by Shamatt


You talk of this in some philosophical concepts of right and wrong. I am looking at this as CAUSE AND EFFECT. In the end...thats all this is....something happens to someone and the other responds in a certain way. WHO IS RIGHT OR WRONG IS OF LITTLE CONSEQUENCE TO THOSE WHO ARE DEAD.

TERRORIST ORGINIZATIONS are often led by people with dellusions of grandure and ego. Then....they soon find themselves DEAD. Split Infinity

reply to post by BO XIAN

Just for your information, you may be interested in knowing that it is way more than "thousands" (the number is probably closer to 20 million) who claim to be descendants of the Prophet, and it is usually a completely bogus claim, and generally unprovable (except maybe in some specific cases of very specific tribes in Saudi Arabia).

Being a descendant doesn't give the person any greater importance or rights or special privileges as a muslim, it doesn't give them greater protection from doing something wrong or sinning, and doesn't make them privy to any special information that would be otherwise unavailable to other muslims, and doesn't mean they are restricted to specific roles or work (imams or religious scholars). The only difference (and this is not universally accepted, only by some schools of thought), is that these people are not permitted to be recipients of charity.

I have met the most irreligious and islamically unknowledgeable people who call themselves "Sayyids" (the term used to denote descent from the Prophet Muhammad), who aren't really all that interested in Islam, and just use their honorific as a means to advance whenever the opportunity presents itself. I've also met very honest, nice and polite Sayyids. The honorific (or the supposed descent) has nothing to do with it.

I didn't meant to be rude about your roommate earlier, I was just pointing out that it's not a very useful opinion or statement to say...it'd be like me saying "You don't REALLY know about jews, but I had one for a roommate, and he's a nephew of She'ar Yashuv Cohen, and it was through him that I learnt that Jews are actually planning the takedown of the world through their power in the financial and media industries"- Essentially meaningless.

reply to post by babloyi


I understand your points about such descendents and claimed descendents. I don't disagree.

Knowing my friend, I doubt seriously he'd have claimed such had it not been emphatically true from his perspective. He didn't particularly put much stock in it in terms of merit or anything. It was just one of those odd things about his heritage, in his eyes.

I appreciate your softened tone. I understand why you say what you do about such a roommate not being greatly convincing etc.

I don't care that much about "convincing."

I offer truth as I know it, in as caring a way as I can manage. Folks can take it or leave it.

I don't know any other 64 year old Christians who have lived with a Muslim sleeping less than 2-3 feet from them for more than a year.

Some folks may find what I learned from that and other experiences and study and others may not. I don't hold a gun to folks heads forcing them to read my posts.

I get somewhat weary of the glib nonsense posted about Islam on ATS. I believe the other side of the coin needs to be better represented.

reply to post by babloyi


How do you relate to the following sorts of collection of facts?

atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com...

This sort of article crops up frequently.

This is NOT a religion of PEACE.

It IS a religion of bloody pieces.