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The Irvine 11: Islamophobia is alive and well

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posted on Sep, 25 2011 @ 11:34 AM
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Originally posted by charles1952
Shamatt,

I spend most of my life nowadays in a confused state, and I have to admit it hasn't cleared up any here. Where is the objection to this case?

Is it that section 403 of the Penal Code doesn't apply? Do you think that the protesters didn't violate that law?
Do you think the District Attorney didn't have the right to bring the case? Maybe the trial proceedings were illegal?

I suspect your theory is that the First Amendment grants the right to say anything, in any manner, in any place, at any time, that someone wants. If that is not your theory then you must accept that society can put some limits on "free speech." If so, what is there about this particular limitation (section 403) that "grinds your gears?"

I've posted information about the law, the acts, the District Attorney, and the speaker earlier in this thread. Happy to discuss anything with you, but I don't understand your position yet.

Charles1952


My possition is .ing to bed.

Also, that I feel these convictions would not have occured if there had not been an Israeli diplomat and muslims in the story.

As posted a moment ago... back in the morning!




posted on Sep, 25 2011 @ 12:23 PM
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reply to post by charles1952
 


Well, ofcourse I did a background check on him too before I post. Yes, he was born in America, but he is an out-and-out Israeli, his citizenship is Israeli, he served in the IDF, just like other Israelis. Are you really sure he's American ? Since when American can join the IDF??
Ouh, America and Israel are very close friends, they're almost like brothers and sisters. Bleh, He's a jew, his religion is Judaism and which part of Mexico was his mother born?

Cheers.



posted on Sep, 25 2011 @ 12:30 PM
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reply to post by Shamatt
 

So under the argument that you are providing, that if a person commit’s a crime, that the authorities are not allowed to question or detain any one who may have been connected with said crime, or any known associates of said suspect in an attempt to gather the evidence to prove a persons guilt?

I am sure the KKK living in the southern part of the USA, during the 1960’s would have enjoyed that argument, as would have President Nixon, during the entire Watergate investigation would have definitely agreed with that argument fully.

However, the authorities are bound to investigate, and if a person chooses not to cooperate, or exercise their legal rights, whose fault is it? The fault of the person not to ask for a lawyer and shut up? Or the fault of the authorities doing their job?

The reality is, be it that we want to admit it or not, is that the USA is engaged in an armed conflict in several countries in the middle east, and that the recent history has shown that those who have used Islam as an excuse to commit atrocities, then hide behind that religion, expecting a free pass. No, that can not be, nor should it be. Even the first attempts on the World Trade center, they tried to hide in Mosques, and the authorities found and was able to arrest all of those involved.

Was it imagination that a woman, who worked less than a year, demand to take time off, all on a religious excuse, when no one else can? Or how about the woman who wanted special treatment at work, namely Disneyland and refused any and all accommodations that they made to her? Or the workers in the grocery stores refusing to touch pork, or the cabbies who are refusing to pick up passengers who are blind or are carrying a bottle of wine? All where the jobs are clearly explained, yet they are putting up a stink using religion as an excuse, how is that fair to the rest of us? That is clearly a group demanding special rights all based on religion, and ultimately, there are further reports coming from Europe and around the world, where the Islamic populations and citizens of differing countries are asking for special treatments, even to the point of violence.

While there will be mistakes made, and such we should pay attention, however, there has to be a limit on what is and is not justified claim of discrimination, and in this case, after viewing the video of what the actual meeting, those who were arrested, were being rude and disrespectful of the speakers there.

Civility is a 2 way street, and so far a few people who are Muslim are just not bothering to consider that or even grant that, when it is granted to them. While the majority of the Muslim citizens are peaceful, the ultimate point should be, that those who would speak for them, is not doing a good job, often using soft language, giving the appearance of hanging to the rear on issues, when statements are issued, nor do they give the appearance of being a part and joining a society, rather often appearing to want to live in a country, but play by their own rules. A country can not operate, if its citizens are divided, as the President Abraham Lincoln once stated: A house divided will not stand. The actions of organizations like CAIR, and others similar to it, with questionable ties to organizations that do not hold the interest of peaceful existence, do not give Islam a good name at all, rather it is like the bishops and the Vatican, that tries to hide criminals, it turns the public against them fully, and thus further dividing the house of countries more.



posted on Sep, 25 2011 @ 01:46 PM
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KnocksMeDead,

I'm afraid we're getting a little off topic here. The only question I can see here is whether he improperly brought charges and there is no evidence of that.

But just for the fun of it, I did some more looking. An American can join the IDF without being Israeli or Jewish if at least one Grandparent was Jewish. This is called the Mahal program.

His mother's family came from Sonora (Spelling?) Mexico, and both of his parents were here from at least 1940. Now, where is your evidence that he is Israeli and Jewish? You have not yet provided any.

Charles1952



posted on Sep, 25 2011 @ 05:30 PM
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KnocksMeDead,

I SCREWED UP---------I'M SORRY

In the thread about the Irvine 11, I got into a discussion with you about the nationality and the sympathies of Ambassador Oren.

You were absolutely right, he is an Israeli Jew-lover. I was clearly wrong. I took an inexcusable wrong turn in my research. I really hate doing that and try hard to not let it happen, but I did this time.

Now that I think of it, it's only right to post this on the thread as well.

Again, my apologies.
Charles1952



posted on Sep, 25 2011 @ 07:42 PM
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reply to post by Shamatt
 


thats not Islamophobia the 11 students didnt want to hear the speech by israeli ambassador so the cliam is that they disrupted the speech but hoesntly What law did they break? What civil code was violated?

Everyone have a right to protest how they want.
edit on 25-9-2011 by Agent_USA_Supporter because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 25 2011 @ 08:09 PM
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reply to post by Agent_USA_Supporter
 

California Penal Code section 403



posted on Sep, 25 2011 @ 08:46 PM
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Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by Agent_USA_Supporter
 

California Penal Code section 403

California Penal Code section 403?
thats the law they broke?



posted on Sep, 25 2011 @ 09:00 PM
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I'm sorry, I should have given you more information.


403. Every person who, without authority of law, willfully disturbs or breaks up any assembly or meeting that is not unlawful in its character, other than an assembly or meeting referred to in Section 302 of the Penal Code or Section 18340 of the Elections Code, is guilty of a misdemeanor.

They were also charged with conspiracy to violate section 403.

Again, my apologies.



posted on Sep, 25 2011 @ 10:32 PM
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Eh, I don't think they should've been tried in the court system. They were just speaking out. I do think they should be expelled from the university and never allowed back.

/TOA



posted on Sep, 25 2011 @ 11:05 PM
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reply to post by charles1952
 


It's okay, people make mistakes
. Apology accepted.


Cheers.



posted on Sep, 25 2011 @ 11:13 PM
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Originally posted by Shamatt
Speaking the truth is not slander.


They were NOT speaking the truth - why ignore that?



what about YOUR freedoms, my friend?


What about the freedom of people to listen to a speech when they want to, without being interrupted by haters?
- or according to you only muslims are allowed that freedom?



posted on Sep, 25 2011 @ 11:52 PM
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Originally posted by charles1952
I'm sorry, I should have given you more information.


403. Every person who, without authority of law, willfully disturbs or breaks up any assembly or meeting that is not unlawful in its character, other than an assembly or meeting referred to in Section 302 of the Penal Code or Section 18340 of the Elections Code, is guilty of a misdemeanor.

They were also charged with conspiracy to violate section 403.

Again, my apologies.


What gives it away as a political prosecution for me is exactly that. Conspiricy. What a trumped up charge. Why?

Planning to commit a crime. Conspiricy. OK - so every bank robber, every miscreant who holds up a convienience store etc is also guilty of conspiricy providing there was more than 1 of them involved - they conspired with their mate to break the law, then they broke it. But you don't see this charge being levied at your average Joe who commits a planned crime. The fact they chose to tack that on makes it look, to me at least, like they were just adding up as many things as they could think of to throw at these guys.

They were treated harshly.



posted on Sep, 26 2011 @ 05:39 AM
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Originally posted by Shamatt

They were treated harshly.



They were treated within the confines of the law. If you don't like our laws, move to another country that better suits you. If you don't live in the US, then you have no right to complain as there were no human rights violation. Your whole issue is a whiny moot point.



posted on Sep, 26 2011 @ 06:21 AM
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Originally posted by DerbyCityLights

Originally posted by Shamatt

They were treated harshly.



They were treated within the confines of the law. If you don't like our laws, move to another country that better suits you. If you don't live in the US, then you have no right to complain as there were no human rights violation. Your whole issue is a whiny moot point.


Ha!

Well, fair enough. You live there, if you are happy with it then I am happy for you. Well, actually I don't care. You won't see what you won't look at any way.



posted on Sep, 26 2011 @ 06:32 AM
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Originally posted by Shamatt


Ha!

Well, fair enough. You live there, if you are happy with it then I am happy for you. Well, actually I don't care. You won't see what you won't look at any way.


If you don't live here, then why the hell are you bitching about it? Are you just trying to start trouble? Are you just trying to ruffle feathers? I think you can get off your soap box now especially since you have proven beyond a doubt that you don't have a damn clue about our laws.



posted on Sep, 26 2011 @ 07:47 AM
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Originally posted by DerbyCityLights

Originally posted by Shamatt


Ha!

Well, fair enough. You live there, if you are happy with it then I am happy for you. Well, actually I don't care. You won't see what you won't look at any way.


If you don't live here, then why the hell are you bitching about it? Are you just trying to start trouble? Are you just trying to ruffle feathers? I think you can get off your soap box now especially since you have proven beyond a doubt that you don't have a damn clue about our laws.


I don't give a damn about your laws, it is the fact that a significant portion of your population seems to act as though it were bereft of any kind of morality, or even a modicum of love or compassion for their common man.

Call me a loony lefty hippy whatever, but this is, even if you can't see it, and example of what is wrong with America. The way the US acts at home and abroad is a disgrace, and that is all I have to say about it. America is not the world, this is a planet we share.

Byee



posted on Sep, 26 2011 @ 07:58 AM
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Originally posted by Shamatt




I don't give a damn about your laws, it is the fact that a significant portion of your population seems to act as though it were bereft of any kind of morality, or even a modicum of love or compassion for their common man.


Its quite obvious you dont give a damn about our laws. You should probably be worried about your own countries laws though..Where are you from again exactly?



Call me a loony lefty hippy whatever, but this is, even if you can't see it, and example of what is wrong with America. The way the US acts at home and abroad is a disgrace, and that is all I have to say about it. America is not the world, this is a planet we share.

Byee


No, you're not a hippie. Hippies don't normally try to start problems in countries they know nothing about. Your problem, as with most US bashers on this site, is that you confuse our people with our government. But again, I'd love to know where you are from. I'd be willing to bet your country does just as many disgraceful things as mine.

And just so you know, the Earth is a planet made up of countries that each have there own laws that must be followed by that countries citizens. Why is that hard for you to grasp?

So, your whole MO here has just been to point out that America is a bad little boy and should be put in a corner?


So again, you have proven yourself beyond a doubt that you have no grasp of US laws. Time to go play trouble maker somewhere else cause your mask has just been lifted.



posted on Sep, 26 2011 @ 08:18 AM
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reply to post by Shamatt
 


I find it ironic that you claim those prosecuted were denied their right to 'freedom of speech' as they were actively trying to disturb and deny a speaker his right to 'freedom of speech'.

It's not as if they were attempting to enter into reasoned debate with the Israeli Ambassador.

It was a lawful assembly and these students were trying to disrupt it thus breaking several laws.

I can't really comment on whether this law is consistently enforced; I would like to think so and I have no evidence to suggest anything other, however.......?



posted on Sep, 26 2011 @ 09:37 AM
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reply to: Both of the above

It's not that I can't see both sides of the story. And I am not saying nore have ever said that the US is any worse at human rights abuse than anywhere else in the world. And where in the world am I from? I've lived in England, Scotland, Hong Kong, Indonesia, China, Australia...... I don't know really, home is where my bed is. (No - not as part of any military.)

I'm not trying to change anything in your country, or even anyone. Just pointing out what I see as harsh, and you don't. Fair enough. I think it was a politically driven prosecution, you don't. OK.

Perhaps others will come accross this thread and come to their own conclusions. Even if in your mind it is frivolous if it opens their minds, and their eyes to what is going on in the US, and in the UK where arguably there is even more surveilance and more attacks on peoples civil liberties, then it has done a good thing. You have to agree with that. This is what these sites are all about, after all.

I will continue to point out issues like this in the hope that people will eventually see that all this incidents are part of a much larger picture. I heard someone say about something completely else the other day "It was a one off event. That is the 5th one off even we have had this week".

The worst thing about this is that if you isolate the case and look at the black and white, purly on paper, you are right - they were guilty as charged. That is so far beside the point. When you tell me you never had a beer before you were 21, and that you never drive over the speed limit, then you can tell me about breaking the law. As you pick and chose which laws you obey, you quickly quote chapter and verse on these dudes.

Someone said something once about not throwing stones....?

Any way. I am ramblilng again. And this is taking ages to type as every word keeps coming out backwards and I have to correct it. It's OK for you 'normals' - I have to type evrything prety much 3 times just to get a propper sentence together! )Then I have to read it back and correct all the errors)

Night
ps - see sig



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