It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Pope makes "lukewarm" comment

page: 1
1
<<   2 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Sep, 24 2011 @ 11:30 PM
link   
So, it could be nothing, but there is so much going on that many of us have interpreted as troubling that I was uncomfortable with the Pope's comment that the Catholic church (and Catholics) can't be "lukewarm" on gay marriage. It is not at all surprising to me that the Pope should come out against gay marriage, it is the use of the word "lukewarm" that set me off a bit.
For those who are not familiar The Book of Revelation has a passage that Christ will spew out the "lukewarm" upon his return. That it is better to be either hot or cold. So it seems to me that the Pope is using endtimes language. Now, of course the word itself is not automaticallly endtimes material, but when used by the Catholic Pope it did strike me as notable.

I know that that "no man shall know the hour or the day", but so many of us feel as though there is hidden knowledge of the events that are unfolding in many parts of our society. This usage felt a little bit like a clue or warning, at the least an intimation that the Pope himself may be thinking in endtimes terms.

Thougths?




posted on Sep, 24 2011 @ 11:33 PM
link   
I don't automatically thing Armageddon when I see references to Revelation. I think about the Book of Daniel and what most the imagery meant to the Jews of that time.



posted on Sep, 24 2011 @ 11:35 PM
link   
reply to post by watcher3339
 


The church has always been thinking in terms of End times. I mean how else would you have all of your devoted servants staying in line without doom and gloom to meet them at the end if they disobey. And what better way to keep them on edge but by keeping them thinking that judgement day is always just around the corner.



posted on Sep, 25 2011 @ 12:00 AM
link   
Considering that many of us tend to look forward to the end because it's do-over time, it's kind of hard to hold the end of us or the world over our heads.

I do think that some allow fears of the end to get to them, and they are controllable due to it. Humans want to live as long as possible. But if I'm guaranteed an infinity longer, healthier life than this one, why in the world would I want to keep this one?



posted on Sep, 25 2011 @ 12:02 AM
link   
reply to post by watcher3339
 


The pope only used a word thats common in the bible, and refers to being indifferent or lacking conviction in your beliefs.

It is not a word used only for the end times, and I wouldn't read anymore into it.

He is required to make clear the dogma of the church, and the catholic church is pretty fixed on what it sees as acceptable, so he was basically reminding followers what the churches views on this issue were, and not to be lukewarm about it.

Now..does he himself believe that?....only God knows what that man really thinks and believes...and maybe a few of his inner circle.

Forgot to add that the catholic church has never real been "end times" focused..like some other branches of christianity... though they do have a history of apparitions, that foretell of events, and ask for prayer, and sacrifice , and the conversion of souls.

I personally wouldn't trust this pope's motives, and if he was warning about the end times, I'd be suspicious..but thats just me.






edit on 25-9-2011 by gabby2011 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 25 2011 @ 12:13 AM
link   
reply to post by watcher3339
can post a link of his speech?



posted on Sep, 25 2011 @ 12:19 AM
link   
Reuters does not have it in entirety, I don't think. But it does have quite a deal more than merely going on about what gays are to the church.



posted on Sep, 25 2011 @ 12:30 AM
link   
reply to post by watcher3339
 




That it is better to be either hot or cold.

I'd rather be in between...balanced and cooooooool...



posted on Sep, 25 2011 @ 12:37 AM
link   
You can both be a christian and call homosexual actions not sins only if you are lukewarm. The bible is quite clear on the matter too, so protestants have no excuse either.



posted on Sep, 25 2011 @ 05:35 AM
link   
I don't mean to be off topic , but the 'gay marriage' issue within the catholic church seems to me the height of hypocrisy.
The churchs involvement with pedophile priests ,& actively covering their crimes, showing only contempt for the victims etc.
Seems its only 'ok' to fool around with kids of the same sex as long as they don't marry them......



posted on Sep, 25 2011 @ 06:09 AM
link   

Originally posted by jewells
I don't mean to be off topic , but the 'gay marriage' issue within the catholic church seems to me the height of hypocrisy.
The churchs involvement with pedophile priests ,& actively covering their crimes, showing only contempt for the victims etc.
Seems its only 'ok' to fool around with kids of the same sex as long as they don't marry them......


No there is not. There is no doctrine which states pedophilia is okay. So what the priests do has nothing to do with the Church's position on the matter.



posted on Sep, 25 2011 @ 06:37 AM
link   
I am a Christian.
The Bible says homosexuality is a sin.
The Bible says lusting after women is a sin.
The Bible says being drunk and out of control is a sin.
The Bible says gluttoney is a sin....

OK, we get the point. However, the Bible also says all sins are equal. There are no big sins and no little sins. People are not perfect...people sin.

As a Chritian, Jesus called me not to condemn, but to LOVE, and to encourage, to build up my brothers and sisters, to be merciful, generous, giving and forgiving, to "Judge not lest ye be judged."

Point is...I sin, you sin, church goers sin, Christians sin, non christians sin....so why make a big deal out of the gay folks. They are people too.

Remember all you Christians... and I am one, too...Jesus defended the harlot...and said to those about to stone her... " Those of you without sin,... cast the first stone."



posted on Sep, 25 2011 @ 06:39 AM
link   

Originally posted by 547000

Originally posted by jewells
I don't mean to be off topic , but the 'gay marriage' issue within the catholic church seems to me the height of hypocrisy.
The churchs involvement with pedophile priests ,& actively covering their crimes, showing only contempt for the victims etc.
Seems its only 'ok' to fool around with kids of the same sex as long as they don't marry them......


No there is not. There is no doctrine which states pedophilia is okay. So what the priests do has nothing to do with the Church's position on the matter.



There may be no doctrine in place, but the churchs continued lack of action in having these priests charged, along with their support in moving them to new parishes clearly shows they don't view this as a crime.



posted on Sep, 25 2011 @ 07:59 AM
link   

Originally posted by AlreadyGone
I am a Christian.
The Bible says homosexuality is a sin.
The Bible says lusting after women is a sin.
The Bible says being drunk and out of control is a sin.
The Bible says gluttoney is a sin....

OK, we get the point. However, the Bible also says all sins are equal. There are no big sins and no little sins. People are not perfect...people sin.

As a Chritian, Jesus called me not to condemn, but to LOVE, and to encourage, to build up my brothers and sisters, to be merciful, generous, giving and forgiving, to "Judge not lest ye be judged."

Point is...I sin, you sin, church goers sin, Christians sin, non christians sin....so why make a big deal out of the gay folks. They are people too.

Remember all you Christians... and I am one, too...Jesus defended the harlot...and said to those about to stone her... " Those of you without sin,... cast the first stone."


And then he said to the woman, "Sin no more".

Why are Christians commanded to reprove each other if our commission is to ignore sin?



posted on Sep, 25 2011 @ 08:04 AM
link   
The pope is the Great Satan, the evil in this guy's face is there for everyone to see. Don't listen to a word the beast say's.



posted on Sep, 25 2011 @ 08:05 AM
link   

Originally posted by jewells

Originally posted by 547000

Originally posted by jewells
I don't mean to be off topic , but the 'gay marriage' issue within the catholic church seems to me the height of hypocrisy.
The churchs involvement with pedophile priests ,& actively covering their crimes, showing only contempt for the victims etc.
Seems its only 'ok' to fool around with kids of the same sex as long as they don't marry them......


No there is not. There is no doctrine which states pedophilia is okay. So what the priests do has nothing to do with the Church's position on the matter.



There may be no doctrine in place, but the churchs continued lack of action in having these priests charged, along with their support in moving them to new parishes clearly shows they don't view this as a crime.


Who is "they"? If you did any research you would see this is not strictly a Catholic problem, yet the Church gets all the flake for it. This is because people hate calls to repentance if it doesn't blend with their desires. Most of the other churches give into popular demand. Christian scriptures declare that homosexuals will not go to heaven and that corrupt clergy will suffer immensely for misleading the people of God.



posted on Sep, 25 2011 @ 08:00 PM
link   
I thank you all for your input.
I am also somewhat uncomfortable with this Pope in general. Pope John Paul II had a sense about him, one I might be inclined to call grace, that made me feel he was actually someone special. As Ratzinger, the current Pope had a lot of insight into various pedophilia incidents and did not act to protect the children. I know that "lukewarm" is just a word. But, surely the Pope of all people is aware of the context in which it best known within the church itself. So the use of it in this capacity (and yes, perhaps it was just to scare people back into line) stood out to me.
I do not at all judge the church for taking a hardline stance on the beliefs of the church. I agree that far too many other churches have simply caved into popular culture (and I was brought up both inside the Catholic church and a protestant denomination which has caved). I respect the times they have stood by their traditional beliefs, even when they seem intolerant by today's social norms. I deplore the times that they have failed to act, particulary in the arena of protecting children from their own memebers.

Thanks again.

Watcher3339



posted on Sep, 25 2011 @ 08:03 PM
link   
reply to post by CynicalDrivel
 


That was a different and better (more complete) than the article I read originally. Thank you for adding it.



posted on Sep, 25 2011 @ 09:26 PM
link   

Originally posted by jewells
I don't mean to be off topic , but the 'gay marriage' issue within the catholic church seems to me the height of hypocrisy.
The churchs involvement with pedophile priests ,& actively covering their crimes, showing only contempt for the victims etc.
Seems its only 'ok' to fool around with kids of the same sex as long as they don't marry them......
This is far more complicated (yet simple) than the surface of this gives, and it requires me laying out what would basically be a full sermon, so I'm going to try to keep this to a minimum. *sigh* This is NOT to tell you personally is you are right or wrong, but to show you how a priest's pedophilia MIGHT be something different from 2 consenting Gays that want to marry. I'm going to try not to make this difficult, either. Try no tot take this as a personal condemantion, for it is not intended that way.

Romans 1:18-32 calls certain passions having control over you as being the consequences of a lack of belief in God's rules. One of those directly mentioned is homosexuality. Pedophilia is not on this list, but I do not think it is excluded. Romans 2:1-29, Romans 3:1-20 tells people that they have no right to judge others when they practice the same things because the God of the Bible is going to come after Christian and non-Christian alike for the same behaviors. Notably:

Romans 2:24 For "THE NAME OF GOD IS BLASPHEMED AMONG THE GENTILES BECAUSE OF YOU," just as it is written.
Christians, and the Jews before them, have been warned for 2000 + years that the unseemly things we do will be held against us, when we attempt to point out what right and wrong is. It's not a matter of us being in the wrong for the standards we hold, but being wrong for not living up to our standards. Romans 3:21-31Romans 4:1-25 points out that the reason that our rights and wrongs mean a darn thing is because our wrongs were paid for through unmerited favor (aka Grace), and we do our part of our bargain through trusting in that payment (aka Faith). In Romans 5:1-21, because of this contract, when we fail, our contract comes into play. Our sinning is covered by our unwavering belief in who and what God is, and God's willingness to be our whipping boy for every sin we commit. In ultimate terms, we become "Sinless", not because we aren't sinning, but because a "Sinless God" buys out our contract for eternal death. In Romans 6:1-23, the question of: "Since God's part of the contract buys out our consequences of sin, should we continually go around calling up and straining that end of the bargain?" arises. This contract is a death contract. We symbolically buried our hedonistic selves with the aim of improving our behavior, so why should we go back on this attempt to be a better person? Specifically:

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
and

Romans 6:16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
Basically, this is a "You are what you practice." This is not a hard concept. We have the saying: "Practice makes perfect." and the fixing of it: "Perfect practice makes perfect". With rare exception, if you do not make a habit of repeating the behaviors you want to emulate, you will not be able to emulate the behavior when times are tough. Most of us know what muscle memory is. It's habits that we do so often that our muscles remember how we did it, and we no longer have to think, but automatically do. Why in the world we assume our minds cannot do the same thing is a bit baffling. 21 days to make or break a behavioral tic.

Oh, this is turning into a dissertation.
I'm going to have to finish this in another post.
edit on 25-9-2011 by CynicalDrivel because: Forgot a number



posted on Sep, 25 2011 @ 10:15 PM
link   
reply to post by CynicalDrivel
 


2nd part:

In the case of gay priests, and pedophilic priests (Catholics have both), is that when they make a mistake, God covers for them. As sick as the sin can be, and as much as God wants nothing to do with the sin, He wants the people, otherwise, why would He buy the contract? At the same time, it does not give the priest the right to wallow in his sin. Priests that hide the sin and do all that is in their power to prevent ever being taken to task for their ill behavior are not seeking help to prevent the sin. These priests are "just as bad" (actually, they're worse, as they're supposed to know better, and have put themselves under contract to DO better) as any two Homosexuals that insists on cohabitation. Priests who come out, and get themselves removed from the potential to fall into their sins are covered by the terms of the contract. Priests who are found out and genuinely attempt to change their mode of operation are covered by the terms of the contract. Priests who honor the intent of their contract, who still make mistakes and fail are covered by their contract, as sick as their failure can be.

The same applies to Homosexuals. If they walk away from God, or never gave themselves to God, they are not under contract. No contract, no Grace. When they attempt to keep the contract, yet deliberately set out to abuse the purpose of the contract (submission to God), they are not under contract. When they attempt to keep the contract, yet make mistakes, they are still under contract. Mistakes are not intentional rebellion. The overwhelming majority of sexual deviants, in and outside Christianity give the appearance of willful disobedience, and thereby make it a necessity for reminders from Christians as to what their stances are.


Therefore, sometimes there is a HUGE difference, to God, and honestly, to Christianity as a whole, between any random Gay Lovers, and pedophilic priests. and it's one that darn near takes a "Come to Jesus" speech to have outsiders understand. Seriously, about the only thing I didn't say was: "Therefore Repent and be Baptized, every one of you for the remission of your sins because Christ got back out of that grave to cover your sorry backside."


Now for the problems:

The biggest problem is it is very difficult to tell those who continuously make mistakes (on the same thing over and over, even) from the deliberately willful. A lot of Gay, Pedophilic, Murdering, white Lairs are being tarred, feathered, then kicked out the nest of Christendom because other Christians can't differentiate the motivations of mistakes and willful disobedience.

A secondary problem is that most people are not educated in what the difference is for a Christian. They're getting the "Come to Jesus" speech without ever being told: "You've got a safety net for your failures, training wheels until you learn to ride this lifestyle." There's a lot of Christians themselves that don't know that God's being their deflector shield, so how can they teach this to others? All they see is a God who wants better from them, and they don't see how they can ever make it. They believe in an afterlife, but they have no hope, and frankly, that's depressing. Do you guys have any idea how hard it is to meet goals in anything without outside help and support? Do you know how insane that can drive you? This is setting yourself up for unnecessary failure!

A third problem is that all these people who think they got their ducks in a row with God think that their ducks mean anything to Him. Yes the contract requires learning a new skillset, but it's not the skillset that got them there, it is their end of the bargain--the belief of who and what God is/can do that is supposed to be driving their motivations. They're out bashing and browbeating the weak with the same wearying phrases over and over. Sooner or later, people are going to rebel and quit listening.

The last problem has nothing to do with the Christians, but with those who don't want to improve their behavior due to not wanting to give up some random thing they think is more important to them than what God may or may not be. For these types, my merely wanting them to understand the undercurrents of the issue from a somewhat insider's perspective will always be hate speech, and any other vilification, for that matter. There is no reasoning or persuasion, in the quest for compassion from the other side of the issue, and they will do their best to destroy anything that they disagree with. And no, I'm NOT saying that everyone who disagrees with me or even posts counterclaims is like this. Behavior doesn't always equal motivation...i.e. the whole point to when Grace is applied.




top topics



 
1
<<   2 >>

log in

join