Faster-than-light speeds -- what it means to everyone

Originally posted by UmbraSumus

Originally posted by gibbajabba
It's great to see science get a big slap in the face because i find their attitudes in general just annoying

This latest piece of research has been made by scientists .....

This is how the process works . It is how all of our scientific understanding advances.
(Personally I think its best to wait until these results have been repeated independently elsewhere)

People say that far too often, "aha! Science was wrong!"

Proven wrong by Science....

Go figure.


As you said, we will know better after it has been tested multiple times by multiple people.

This does not mean WE can travel faster then light.

What was shown in this neutrino is that *nothing* or (space) can
travel fast then light. Not matter.

Nothing is infinite, except space which is in fact nothing but a vacuum.

Space can expand faster then the speed of light. Not you or me.

reply to post by popsmayhem

Neutrinos do have mass, if not very much.

reply to post by Visiting ESB


your thread does not really say much. Science works on falsification of itself. That does not make it wrong or right. A theory is only a theory and really you measure its salt in usefulness...

reply to post by Visiting ESB

The biggest problem I have with scientists is that most seem to have no imagination. Imagination would drive them to discover the true nature of the universe. Instead, they accept what was done before them and dismiss any other possibility.

The biggest failure of science in the 20th century, is when scientists were pushed out of the field of physics by mathematicians.


Science as a Field of study is about OBSERVING the universe, and creating theoretical models that fit the observations.


Now, think about what Einstein did.... No observation.... No testing.....

He merely took some mathematical models that ALREADY EXISTED, and just crunched the numbers on them in a different way.

There was no observation that caused einstein to say "Hey, what if everything is relative?"

No, it was his manipulation of different abstract mathematics that brought him to this "Conclusion"

And now the field of Physics is left in a Cage of rigid mathematical models that were constructed without observing one single speck of reality.

And then, of course, in true religious fashion... From our Hypothesis, we seek out evidence that *FITS*.... as opposed to the scientific method, which is looking at the world, and THEN constructing the theoretical framework based upon our observations.

Originally posted by Dr Expired
reply to post by popsmayhem

 

Neutrinos do have mass, if not very much.

Non-zero but pretty close.
The point being this has nothing
to do with humans being able to
travel faster then light.

It just shows that space can expand faster
then light.

Originally posted by popsmayhem
This does not mean WE can travel faster then light.

What was shown in this neutrino is that *nothing* or (space) can
travel fast then light. Not matter.

Nothing is infinite, except space which is in fact nothing but a vacuum.

Space can expand faster then the speed of light. Not you or me.

edit on 24-9-2011 by popsmayhem because: (no reason given)

So...you're saying "nothing" was tracked, recorded, measured and was found to have a measurable speed. That just sounds like a classic case of denial of reality. Maybe Einstein didn't think neutrinos have no mass, but again, he was wrong.

reply to post by Dr Expired


Well.. I wouldn't have expected five minutes. I mean, do we know how it was measured? Is it possible that it could have been by a greater margin? What if the speed/time/distance/whatever was only measured in mere seconds or less?

What does it mean to me?
It scares me. I am thinking that maybe the neutrino did not travel as they think it did. I am wondering if maybe they sent it into the future 60 billionths of a second. They think they broke the light speed barrier but what if in fact they broke the time barrier? The human race is not ready for that kind of power.

Originally posted by Visiting ESB

The biggest problem I have with scientists is that most seem to have no imagination. Imagination would drive them to discover the true nature of the universe. Instead, they accept what was done before them and dismiss any other possibility.

Being a scientist is an immensely creative job. When you're at the vanguard of research and scientific understanding, you have to be creative and think outside the box. The idea that they "accept what was done before them and dismiss any other possibility"n is absolutely ludicrous. If that was the case, we would still be in the stone age. You are confusing evidence-based acquisition of knowledge to blindly accepting any old flight of fancy as fact. The former dismisses ideas that are not supported by evidence and sound reasoning, the latter does not.

Originally posted by gibbajabba
It's great to see science get a big slap in the face because i find their attitudes in general just annoying

And I'm sure they find the attitudes of laymen who have no understanding of their work passing judgement on their character and integrity annoying too. You do realise that this discovery (if validated) was made by scientists, right? As in it is a scientific discovery made by scientists using scientific method to further the field of science? I.e. not some internet armchair pseudo-scientist crank?

Our ancestors did not know of cellular matter, its properties and how it behaves, right up till the 18th century, much thanks to the invention of the microscope. Only through understanding of cellular properties, did it lead to a complete upgrading of our biological comprehension of species on Earth till today and into the future.

So too must we now comprehend neutrino's special and critical ' properties'

For simplier explanation so that layman may understand relativity of time and speed instead of in nanoseconds,

1. A beam of light is shined towards Alpha Centuri, 11 light years away. Inhabitants there will only see our light in 11 years time.

2. Now that we realized neutrinos can go faster than speed of light, it would mean with the same beam of light, neutrinos will reach Alpha Centuri perhaps in 7 light years or even- the next second.


3. For a long time, we had assume that there is nothing faster than speed of light. Neutrinos now proved FTL is possible.

So, what are the special 'properties' of neutrinos, that it could bend time and space, slip into this dimension, and appear on Alpha Centuri, faster than light?

It would be vital to find it out, cos once we know its dimension shifting possibilities, we may, over time and with advanced learning, create mechanical structures that mimick neutrinos to enter different dimensions, a vastly superior and better, faster form of time and space travel

There are too many people on this forum who mistake the sci-fi fantasies of Star Trek for reality. Neutrinos are the lightest non-zero mass particles around. They do not have enough mass to bend space-time to shorten journeys. Nor can they create wormholes - they are too light. Such talk is just uninformed fantasizing by people ignorant of particle physics. Nor does the existence of higher dimensions of space provide short cuts. As a fermion embedded in (according to superstring theory and its generalization - M-theory) 11-d space-time, neutrinos would not be able to get to some point in large-scale space-time more quickly than light if, for some reason, they left large-scale Minkowski space-time and travelled solely in the compactified 7-d space. This is because, even if they did, they would still have to return to Minkowski space-time in order to be detected by instruments designed to register signals in this space-time, which means that any journey restricted to higher dimensions would end up at the very point in large-scale space where the neutrinos left the observable universe, for they would not have moved in it at all! Higher dimensions, therefore, simply do not explain the reported anomaly, which I predict will be explained in due course as based upon errors that were not taken into consideration during the period of checking. It won't be the first time that high-energy physics lab teams have made mistakes ....

reply to post by Visiting ESB


"Indiana's Kostelecky theorizes that there are situations when the background is different in the universe, not perfectly symmetrical as Einstein says. Those changes in background may change both the speed of light and the speed of neutrinos.

But that doesn't mean Einstein's theory is ready for the trash heap, he said.

"I don't think you're going to ever kill Einstein's theory. You can't. It works," Kostelecky said. Just there are times when an additional explanation is needed, he said.

If the European findings are correct, "this would change the idea of how the universe is put together," Columbia's Greene said. But he added: "I would bet just about everything I hold dear that this won't hold up to scrutiny."

what he said.

I am anxious for the end of the year, when CERN has to announce that there is no Higgs boson particle to convey mass to matter. Perhaps then physicists will be more inclined to accept imaginary mass, extra hidden dimensions, dimension-hopping f-t-l, etc.

Perhaps then, we can finally get some real interest and development of hyperspace travel. Like... by way of spinning large superconductive masses and magnetic fields, to implement Extended Heim Theory.

That is... if Trekies will ever get their impractical (Miguel Alcubierre) Warp-Drive out of the way of f-t-l progress.

Originally posted by Visiting ESB
This week, we leaned that neutrinos were clocked at 60 billionths of a second faster than the speed of light. What does this mean to the average person?

This discovery means...

-- that even though Einstein was right, period, there may be ways of getting around this law.
-- that there is a distinct possibility that, if it APPEARS speeds of 60 billionth of a second beyond light speed are possible (though the jury is not out and this is not accepted as fact yet), then perhaps APPaRENT unlimited speeds (speed of thought) are possible as well.
-- Since science, particularly physics, is built upon Einstein's proven theories, it means that we still have a lot to learn.
-- that we should begin to realize that we know next to nothing about the universe we live in. We are a primitive species and should be less interested in the paranormal and instead open our minds to the incredible science of the universe has in store.
-- that the practitioners of science are doing the right thing and trying to get to the bottom of this apparent contradiction to Einstein to determine this mystery of the universe. From now on, when a pranormal WORSHIPER speaks in absolutes, we can point them to a science PRACTITIONER so that they can be educated as to where they went wrong.
-- that an entirely new arena of science has opened up. Hopefully, our creativity and imaginations will open as well and combine, leading to remarkable discoveries that we realize will never be completely solid, as our understanding of the universe is ever unfolding.


I'm sure there's more, but just posted this for starters...

edit on 24-9-2011 by Visiting ESB because: add text

edit on 24-9-2011 by Visiting ESB because: delete text

I fixed that for you.

reply to post by ErtaiNaGia


The problem is that previously the theories of physics could be tested. There became a point where the science was no longer able to keep up with the theories, they literally could not determine any way of testing the theories. We are just now beginning to be able to test some of these theories. It is important to note that there is no proof of the speed of light being surpassed.

Right now saying the speed of light was passed is like saying someone was shot, you have a gun, proof your gun shot him. We know so little about our universe, and neutrinos, it's quite possible neutrinos are able to travel in and out of different dimensions, thus making the travel TIME shorter than expected without actually breaking the speed of light barrier.

Suppose we have technology that allows us to "fold" space and travel millions of light years instantly, this does not mean the speed of light was passed, it means we achieved a workaround, which is very possible what neutrinos have done in a way we do not as of yet understand.

reply to post by OccamsRazor04


Interesting can you explain a little more indepth? I was following the same line of thought and was wondering a few things about the nature of this find. Does this mean, if the object was traveling through time, our time was bending and folding? So time is manipulatable, malleable? Do you realise the implications? Time Travel. If they ever figure out how and why.

Originally posted by OccamsRazor04
reply to post by ErtaiNaGia

 

The problem is that previously the theories of physics could be tested. There became a point where the science was no longer able to keep up with the theories, they literally could not determine any way of testing the theories. We are just now beginning to be able to test some of these theories. It is important to note that there is no proof of the speed of light being surpassed.

Right now saying the speed of light was passed is like saying someone was shot, you have a gun, proof your gun shot him. We know so little about our universe, and neutrinos, it's quite possible neutrinos are able to travel in and out of different dimensions, thus making the travel TIME shorter than expected without actually breaking the speed of light barrier.

Suppose we have technology that allows us to "fold" space and travel millions of light years instantly, this does not mean the speed of light was passed, it means we achieved a workaround, which is very possible what neutrinos have done in a way we do not as of yet understand.

edit on 25-9-2011 by OccamsRazor04 because: Better readability.

5/5

now tell them when it is observed,,,it,,, seems too ,,emphasize,,, seems too ,

understand the "observence".

Everybody, please read this.

www.science20.com...

"Wake up guys – it is 2011 – modern physics has come a looooong way since Albert."

He believes that the most likely resolution is experimental error, but scientists HAVE conceived of ways how this work.

Read it and never say that scientists aren't creative---in fact they come up with the most bizarre and astounding concepts all the time---and still try to fit it into observed reality.