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The REAL Debt Issue?

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posted on Sep, 24 2011 @ 07:05 PM
reply to post by beezzer

I think that if they stopped handing out aid they would just spend it on something else.

Self reliance would kick in but the debt would not shrink.

posted on Sep, 24 2011 @ 07:55 PM
reply to post by daskakik

Debt is paid off fast.. Most gov bonds are short term 1_5 years. But we just keep on spending on welfare and imperialism..

Thus debt isnt an issue.... Welfare and war is..

posted on Sep, 24 2011 @ 08:14 PM

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Thus debt isnt an issue.... Welfare and war is..

Isn't debt the result of social services and war?

Here's a good question ( I think it is anyway). The gov paid out 860billion in Medicare and Medicaid in 2010. Where did that money go? Doesn't it go into the health services sector? Isn't it what feeds everyone from surgeons, doctors, nurses, EMTs and even hospital janitors as well as all those businesses that provide a service or product to that sector? Isn't part of it also recovered in the form of different taxes?

I think it's too complicated to just sum it up the way you did.

posted on Sep, 24 2011 @ 08:30 PM
The debt is impossible. It's that simple.

There will have to be a collapse, because that is the only thing that will naturally correct the balance, it is inevitable. The global economy, powered by the greedy, will never work because there is a class divide. There will always be those who will gladly screw over the rest of the people to make another $. You cannot have global trading to the level we have without MASSIVE corruption and greed.

The US government could cut everything, 90%, across the board, and it STILL WOULD NOT BE ENOUGH!

The worst thing about it is that if they had allowed the natural collapse to happen in 2008, we would be through the worst of it by now and rebuilding. Instead, they're digging the hole deeper and making the situation worse with every passing day.

What we need is for the people to start a movement to remove the power from those corrupt corporations and government and support your LOCAL economy and community. We need to go back to a simpler time where neighbors supported each other and provided for their own local people. Forget the investments, forget the beach house, forget the college degree in some pathetic subject that will not serve anyone with anything of value and get back to the basics.
We either do it voluntarily and take the initiative, or we let the greedy and power hungry create a collapse for their profit and then take us all to war.

That is the choice. Switch off and stop finding their insanity, or keep trusting all the BS and end up being shipped off to fight China in ten years while those same bankers build another mall.
edit on 24-9-2011 by detachedindividual because: (no reason given)

posted on Sep, 24 2011 @ 10:05 PM
reply to post by Rockpuck

A dude by the name of Jasques Rueff neatly summed this up with the aphorism "deficit without tears." Beside that I'm inclined to commend this thread in that it points out deficiencies with vetted numbers rather than go the way of extraneous arguments that underlie some preferred philosophy about what is right and what is wrong.

Here's an interesting outtake on SS you may find amusing ( I happen to be in the age group born after 1970, and even I can't help but laugh.

Reckon that makes me something akin to a masochist.


posted on Sep, 25 2011 @ 02:07 AM

Originally posted by Rockpuck
US GDP : 15.03 trillion
US debt : 14.726 trillion
Total debt to GDP ratio : 97.97%

But note that Debt to GDP doesn't actually mean ... anything..

US Debt: 14.726 trillion.
US Tax Receipts (2010): 2.162 trillion.

US Average Yearly Debt Expenditure (including principle):
2008: 550 billion
2009: 725 billion
2010: 440 billion

(We are technically paying less on debt today, with a much higher deficit, than we were in 2005 and 2006 .. because of lower interest rates)

2010 expenditures on interest: $197 billion. or 6% of the budget

DEBT is not our problem .. it's what Congresscritters and the MSM tell us the problem is. In fact, even at 14 trillion dollars, the USA Debt is very, very manageable. Year over Year we can put huge dents into what we owe ..

The REAL problem, that no Congresscritter wants to discuss.. is that Social Security expenditures are increasing on average 10% a year

For instance..

2006: USA pays $570 billion for SS expenses.
2010: USA pays $750 billion for SS expenses.

Compound this, take it out another decade.. what do you get?


In 2010 Social Security assumed 20% of the entire budget.

It gets worse..

In 2006 the USA payed $530 billion on Medicaid and Medicare, as well as all other health services expenses.
In 2010 the USA payed $860 billion

If we average 75 billion in growth a year for the next 10 years (a very conservative estimate) we will be paying 1.6 TRILLION by 2021

To all you anti-war Obama lovers..

In 2006 (Under Bush, in the height of the wars) the USA spent $530 billion on defense.
In 2010 (Under Obama, supposedly ending the wars) the USA spent $720 billion on defense.
In fact the largest ever recorded expense on defense spending was in 2009 at just under $800 billion.

And somehow under Obama we managed to spend $50 billion in 2006 on the Labor Dept and $150 billion in 2010.

The point is DEBT is not the issue ..

Social Services and Defense spending is.. out of control Government spending ..

But no one is talking about what REALLY needs cutting, the 3 largest expenses SS, Healthcare, and Military consume the vast majority of our budget, and all 3 are exempt from spending cuts .. in fact Healthcare expenses are going to shoot up dramatically in the next few years under Obamacare.. The REAL fear is that compounding the growth of our social welfare system over the next 2 decades, we will consume so much debt just to pay for those services that the entire economy would soon implode.

I'd go one step further. Perhaps these services are costly because the private interests/suppliers like military manufacturers and insurance companies are charging too much. Perhaps we could have the same level of military and social services if private companies wouldn't gouge government with exuberant fees. EVEERYONE KNOWS that government is charged a different price (typically much higher) than the average consumer on all most everything.
edit on 25-9-2011 by CantSay because: (no reason given)

posted on Sep, 25 2011 @ 03:16 AM
Hey man good thread, starting to really enjoy ur views on things.

Your right the problems big, the problems real and its fast approaching.

Now the smartest economic minds in the government surely see this, yet do nothing but hasten its arrival and build on its reach.

Safe to say perhaps a solution isnt what they are after

posted on Sep, 25 2011 @ 04:40 AM
reply to post by Rockpuck

The point is DEBT is not the issue ..

Social Services and Defense spending is.. out of control Government spending


that's not entirely correct

FICA Tax Rates
Generally, FICA taxes are collected at a rate of 7.65% on gross earnings - earnings before any deductions. The breakdown of FICA is 6.2% for Social Security (Old-Age, Survivors, and Disability Insurance or OASDI) and 1.45% for Medicare.

2011 FICA Tax and Social Security Limits
•FICA Tax Rate = 7.65% (see note below)
•Social Security Limit = $106,800
•Maximum Social Security Contribution = $6,621.60 (employer) / $4485.60 (employee)
Note: In 2011, the FICA tax rate for employees was lowered to 5.65%.
The employer tax rate remained unchanged, while the Social Security rate for employees was lowered to 4.20%.

see, my point is that the social service expendature of 'Social Security' payments comes from a seperate tax for that program alone.... social security & medicare are funded by seperate tax collections...not taxes from sales or VAT or from income taxes which are considered the general revenue of the nation.

indeed these social entitlement expenses, during this prolonged period of unemployment
might be expierencing a reduced revenue flow into the Medicare fund, but the Social Security fund is filled with worthless IOUs instead of actual Treasury bonds or bills or notes which should have been erning interest for the last 50+ years

the 'Defense' spending is the only money draining/ debt creating monster around...
the polyticions have raided the Social Security tax fund for decades (and more than $2Trillion)

Don't get caught up in the debt explaination trap of blaming social security---and demanding that 'austerity measures' are the only remedy... thats a trap created by the elites who want to steal what the poor & huddled masses have as their last resort, a measley source of income that keeps the survivors of the corporate-fascist machine alive and somewhat removed from a total despiration and reliance on the elites rationing programs directed at the less well-heeled masses

posted on Sep, 25 2011 @ 01:26 PM
reply to post by CantSay

insurance companies

YES! .. This is the biggest, by far, reason health care is so expensive.. and it's why Obamacare is doomed to fail (in it's purpose) because it's nothing short of FASCISM. Why have a middle man? I don't mind a government seriously wanting to help her people, but when the government first caters to the corporations before the people, its true aims become apparent .. corporate profit, campaign kickbacks and so on..

reply to post by Agit8dChop

I agree, there probably isn't much work to find a real solution.. everything they do appears to be against us, the people, unless it's to buy a certain demography's vote..
reply to post by St Udio

see, my point is that the social service expendature of 'Social Security' payments comes from a seperate tax for that program alone.... social security & medicare are funded by seperate tax collections...not taxes from sales or VAT or from income taxes which are considered the general revenue of the nation.

The actual costs of maintaining the programs far exceed the level taxed to fund the liabilities. Then you also have to consider that many presidents loot the coffers of Social Security to fund their own agendas. Like CLinton during the "surplus" years, which was nothing more than a looting of nearly 800b from SS, or Bush, Bush and Obama etc etc etc ..

posted on Sep, 25 2011 @ 02:10 PM
Well Rock we dont always agree on this issue,

However S+F excellent presentation of the real issue ie income to outgoings......

The only thing is that to blame it on Obama is very subjective and personal, the spending to including looting within the pentagon during the Bush years was tragic, the cost of the "war on Terror" massive.

Thanks good points on the actual current position and highlighting the actual one most important thing, not Wall street etc... what you highlite leads to an American near future we can see being played out in Greece now.....

In maybe months or a couple of years if the USA is close to default who would bail them out?

Untenable as you show current Status Quo.

Wishing you and yours happy, healthy and succesfull to.

Kind Regards,


posted on Sep, 27 2011 @ 08:01 PM
Hate to tell you
a country can have a "socialize + insurance based" medical care system, a social security
system and also have an ecconomy in the red, australia was going posting budget surplussed before
2008 and is expected to agian in 2013. it has all of these things, trouble is your elits wont allow
proper taxation to occure, control your politicians through campain donations. oh and the mininum
wage is 500pw which, it can work you need a Goods and services tax (12%) as well as better taxation
of those with higher wages. reduce the millitary spend which is inevitable and in the long run better
for you. lets say 200billion insted of 800 billion puts you in a ball park of being able to cover your costs
and reducing your debt. you can still have your nuclear deterant, & cover your boarders nicely.
the falure to down size the millitare after the end of the cold war has been one hell an expensive exercies.
the world worked just fine when you guys were isolationists and i'm sure it will again.
you could have helthcare, and social security and get out of debt.
and also the less of a foot print that the us has outside of it's own boaders the less likely terrorist will
try and strike at you and the less inteligence assets you would have to put in the field.

edit on 27-9-2011 by wondera because: (no reason given)

edit on 27-9-2011 by wondera because: (no reason given)

posted on Sep, 27 2011 @ 08:44 PM
reply to post by wondera

Anything can work with "proper taxation".. however, many (including myself) believe it is fundamentally wrong for the Federal Government to tax outrageously for Federal programs. If the Feds taxed us an additional 15% they could cover the costs of everything, even our wars of aggression. But eventually the Gov, with all their new found monies, would find something else to spend it on .. a new program, new wars, a ton of Pork Projects .. and then, in a decade, we'd be in the exact same situation with a government twice as large and a debt even larger.

No nation can tax it's self to prosperiety. And it takes prosperity to afford welfare programs.. in essence, it is impossible to tax ones self into these programs, you'll only destroy your own economy. At no other time in the USA's history has such a small portion of the economy taken the tax burden of so many.

And it's not necessarily that we shouln't have Social Security, or even a healthcare system.. it's that The way they are currently set up is impossible to continue.

posted on Sep, 28 2011 @ 07:18 AM
Three tier beurocasy
Local, State and Fedral.
The biggest problem we have in the australian healthcare system is the state system of organisation,
blaming the fedral level, passing the buck, then the feds passing it back. I oftern wish we could do away
with the states, it's expensive and combersome way of doing things. local and fedral, people at local to micro-manage and people ate fedral to Macro manage. one curriculum for schools, one health care, one set of funding and beurocrasy. we know where the buck stops.
States create an unecissary level of expeniture and they contribute very little in the way of good government
let the local government deal with roads. and the feds with the big stuff. only need 1 of any department
not dubling up on the paperwork, and the problem with who's pissing in who's pond.
One nation, one system would work better than one nation 6 systems, and in the US case 50 (sorry i can't remember how many states you guys have) but thats alot of doubling up on things.
would go a long way in reducing the cost of governace. Unite the states and become one nation.
P.S. sorry about the spelling i was alway realy bad at that. and the gramma, I was always more of
a maths science person.
edit on 28-9-2011 by wondera because: (no reason given)

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