Debt Crisis Twist: Does Germany Owe Greece 70 Billion From World War II?

Debt Crisis Twist: Does Germany Owe Greece 70 Billion From World War II?

worldcrunch.com

Debt Crisis Twist: Does Germany Owe Greece 70 Billion From World War II?
Germany continues to shoulder much of the load when it comes to Europe’s bailout of Greece. For some Greeks, that’s just as it should be. After all, Germany still has billions of euros in unpaid reparations bills from World War II. Die Welt takes a closer look.
BERLIN - In the current debate about the possible bankruptcy of the Greek state, one largely dormant argument has recently resurfaced with increasing frequency: the While the claims for payment of damages are based on very real facts, one could likewise argue

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This is just Germany's hypocrisy tip of the iceberg. I do not want to offend German people but only want to talk about Germany's politics.

Similar articles are now coming out because Angela Merkel's party is about to fall:

Germany’s enormous hidden debt
23 September 2011

Handelsblatt, 23 September 2011

“The Truth," leads Handelsblatt, giving short shrift to the alleged parsimony of the German state – and the astronomical numbers support it. Officially, German debt in 2011 stands at 2,000 billion euros. But that's only half the truth, because the major portion of expenditure for pensioners, the sick and dependent persons is not included in the calculation. According to new figures, the real debt is 5,000 billion euros. If these figures stand, Germany is in debt to the tune of 185 percent of its gross domestic product and not 83 percent, as officially declared. By comparison, Greek debt should be 186 percent of GDP in 2012, and Italy's debt is currently at 120 percent. The critical threshold beyond which debt crushes growth is 90 percent. Since coming to power in 2005, Angela Merkel, "has created as much new debt as all the chancellors in the previous four decades together," writes the chief economist of the business daily. "These are 7,000 billion euros on a bad cheque that we have signed and our children and grandchildren will have to pay."

Let's just wait (not for too long I hope) and see


worldcrunch.com
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Difference is though Germany can afford to be in debt far longer than most countries in the world, especialy longer than Greece. Greece will probably be one of the first in a long line of industrialised nations to go bust and Germany, quit rightly so is not willing to bail them out.

Id rather see Greece going bankrupt than Germany, sure the price of my fancy Olive Oil might go up a notch but Germany going broke? Germany going broke IS A BAD THING.

For starters the WWII debt was not owed in euros. Second the debt was not only repaid but German industry helped to rebuild all of the war torn continent. This is what made then the economic power they are today. In fact if it weren't for the rise of the nazis in ww2 and operation Barbarossa the entire population of Europe would be speaking Russian right now and quite possibly north America as well.

Just to mention: The situation in Greece was mainly caused by the corrupt elites. They not only betrayed the EU with faked bookkeepings but the people of Greece at first hand.
Germany could pay on and on, but as long as Greece is a bottomless pit it would help nobody, especially not the people of Greece. They need to change that corrupt system for their own good.

reply to post by Siddharta


Though really it was because they decided to pay for the Olympics just before a world recession and now there screwed.

Originally posted by metaldemon2000
For starters the WWII debt was not owed in euros. Second the debt was not only repaid but German industry helped to rebuild all of the war torn continent. This is what made then the economic power they are today. In fact if it weren't for the rise of the nazis in ww2 and operation Barbarossa the entire population of Europe would be speaking Russian right now and quite possibly north America as well.

There's an overstatement if I ever heard 1

reply to post by NewsWorthy


You think so??? Germany was either going to be nationalist-socialist or communist. Had they became communist during that era the Soviets would have succeeded on taking Europe and all before the allies even got involved. There would not have been a military force on earth capable of dealing with such a threat

Think about it they say the biggest mistake hitler made was trying to take Russia, if not for this they would have had enough force to repel the d -day invasion which would not only have crippled the ally war machine but the continued aerial attacks on Britain would have defeated the nation in a matter of weeks. It was well documented that Britain was weeks away from surrendering had the v2 rockets and aerial raids persisted. The us placed all their chips on the Normandy invasion and it was only with this victory that the allies were able to turn the tides of the war.

That being said, if Germany were to take the communist path and be absorbed by the soviet union ( which they would have) their forces would have been unstoppable because they wouldn't have had lost as much resources, time, and manpower as they did during operation Barbarossa. The Russians would have been able to continue pushing west aided by the German forces. They would have had the scientists and generals of the German war machine at their disposal as well. Basically the allies would have never gained their foothold on European soil and would have lost miserably. Britain would have been occupied before long as well.

This concept has been explored before by many authors and even in video games. It is a very plausible theory, not an overstatement.

You thought the Russians were bad during the cold war?? Imagine that but the US never having gained the military industrial complex or the spoils of war of technology and scientists from Europe. No space program, no military superpower, no resurrected economy due to the war effort.

In short north America would have been defenceless and weak.

Stuff to think about.

Originally posted by Johnze
reply to post by Siddharta

 

Though really it was because they decided to pay for the Olympics just before a world recession and now there screwed.

Hehe! Maybe they never should have invented the Olypmpic games at all. I hope, you are just joking.
Greece still is not a Third World Country, but one of the richer nations in this world. If they were not, nobody would be interested in them and their way down would not have any influence at all.

Everything is relative, as good Einstein said. If Mocambique goes down, nobody cares at all.

reply to post by novrod


Interesting. Greece could also welcome back the Greek Royal Family, and demand the British Royal Family bail them out by accepting the return of Philip, who was born into the Greek Royal Family but exiled. And since Husband and Queen are in fact cousins, it solidifies the UK's responsibility to bailout Greece.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by novrod

 

Interesting. Greece could also welcome back the Greek Royal Family, and demand the British Royal Family bail them out by accepting the return of Philip, who was born into the Greek Royal Family but exiled. And since Husband and Queen are in fact cousins, it solidifies the UK's responsibility to bailout Greece.

Nope, there is absolutely no chance for the ex-royal family to return to power. There is just no basis in the people for a return. We decided this matter after returning to democracy in 1974 with a referendum. And Philip who? No such name as far as I know in the Greek ex-Royal Family. It's either Constantine, ex-King or his eldest son, named Nicholas. I think you confused Philip, husband of Queen Elizabeth, for an aspirant to the Greek throne.

You may wish for the British to bail us out, but truth is it is the EU's responsibility to bail us out. Why? Because they failed to close the door to the Eurozone for us, although they all knew we did not qualify in 2001. And also because - like so many US banks and corporations - we are to big to fail, since if we decide to leave the Eurozone, return to the Drachma and declare once again bankruptcy a lot of French and German banks would go down as well, not to mention the domino effect it would have on debt ridden EU members - the so called PIIGS. See, that's why they bailed us out this time albeit at a tremendous cost to the lower and middle class of our society.

To return this on topic: Does Germany Owe Greece reparations? Well, depends who you ask: yes, we never got any reparations after the war, because we plunged into a civil war which ended in 1949 and by then the Marshall plan was in effect for all capitalist, mainly western European countries. And apparently one of our right wing, conservative prime ministers in the late 50ies did a deal with the Germans in exchange for the opportunity to send a lot of Greeks to Germany as immigrant workers in the 60ties in effect giving up any reparations demands stemming from the plundering of the Greek banks and our Central Bank - the Bank of Greece, which had quite some gold and silver reserves piled up. Individuals may and still are suing the German government to this day - either survivors of the war - the few that are still alive - or their relatives and occasionally they do win after long and tedious court battles all the way up to the European High Court (takes anywhere from 10-15 or even 20 years for the final decision). But those payments are small peanuts for the German government.

Originally posted by WalterRatlos

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by novrod

 

Interesting. Greece could also welcome back the Greek Royal Family, and demand the British Royal Family bail them out by accepting the return of Philip, who was born into the Greek Royal Family but exiled. And since Husband and Queen are in fact cousins, it solidifies the UK's responsibility to bailout Greece.

Nope, there is absolutely no chance for the ex-royal family to return to power. There is just no basis in the people for a return. We decided this matter after returning to democracy in 1974 with a referendum. And Philip who? No such name as far as I know in the Greek ex-Royal Family. It's either Constantine, ex-King or his eldest son, named Nicholas. I think you confused Philip, husband of Queen Elizabeth, for an aspirant to the Greek throne.

You may wish for the British to bail us out, but truth is it is the EU's responsibility to bail us out. Why? Because they failed to close the door to the Eurozone for us, although they all knew we did not qualify in 2001. And also because - like so many US banks and corporations - we are to big to fail, since if we decide to leave the Eurozone, return to the Drachma and declare once again bankruptcy a lot of French and German banks would go down as well, not to mention the domino effect it would have on debt ridden EU members - the so called PIIGS. See, that's why they bailed us out this time albeit at a tremendous cost to the lower and middle class of our society.

To return this on topic: Does Germany Owe Greece reparations? Well, depends who you ask: yes, we never got any reparations after the war, because we plunged into a civil war which ended in 1949 and by then the Marshall plan was in effect for all capitalist, mainly western European countries. And apparently one of our right wing, conservative prime ministers in the late 50ies did a deal with the Germans in exchange for the opportunity to send a lot of Greeks to Germany as immigrant workers in the 60ties in effect giving up any reparations demands stemming from the plundering of the Greek banks and our Central Bank - the Bank of Greece, which had quite some gold and silver reserves piled up. Individuals may and still are suing the German government to this day - either survivors of the war - the few that are still alive - or their relatives and occasionally they do win after long and tedious court battles all the way up to the European High Court (takes anywhere from 10-15 or even 20 years for the final decision). But those payments are small peanuts for the German government.

I would be careful before talking about who owes Greece what, when Greece never paid for it's actions of outright genocide and illegal land seizures the Greeks committed against the Macedonians. But you Greeks like to cover that little gem of truth up.

reply to post by korathin


What genocide? Do you even know what genocide means? Are you aware that there was a civil war between 1946-1949 in Greece? Atrocities were committed on both sides. And after the civil war ended with the help of our "great ally" the USA, the communists who lost were forced into exile. History as a science has not recorded a genocide during that time against Macedonians (see below).

By the way, which Macedonians are you referring to? The Greek Macedonians? The Bulgarian Macedonians? or the FYROM Macedonians. You see Macedonia is a geographical term first and foremost. Tito was responsible for naming what is now FYROM and for giving the people living there a Macedonian identity.

I believe we are just pretending not being able to see the big picture.

Claiming one country should not receive war compensations just because we do not agree with its politics is wrong. Atrocities were committed and thousands of years of history and progress was ruined.

For all I know Greece can use that money to build artificial islands and sea cruisers to improve tourism.

That's a choice they have. Neither you or I should influence any Greek decisions.