I have explored many religions and spiritual paths in my 52 years and have finally gone back to the Catholic Church of my upbringing. This isn't to say that I agree with everything, but I find it's where I can find peace. Let me make clear, I believe all paths to "holiness" and "goodness" are equally valid and don't require a specific denomination. It's one's heart and intent that matter. I prefer to believe in a God. It gives me comfort (some may say a false comfort),it brings me peace, it helps me deal with grief, it gives order and sanity in a crazy world. When I go to church, I feel a special spirituality that is very much like meditation...the Catholics are good at that LOL and I think that's one reason I find solace there. I was iffy about religion, God, the afterlife, etc. till I lost my parents,many friends etc...the natural effects of being older. I chose to believe that there was an afterlife (but no hell) in order to stay sane. That's about it for me.
joey

I have explored many religions and spiritual paths in my 52 years and have finally gone back to the Catholic Church of my upbringing. This isn't to say that I agree with everything, but I find it's where I can find peace. Let me make clear, I believe all paths to "holiness" and "goodness" are equally valid and don't require a specific denomination. It's one's heart and intent that matter. I prefer to believe in a God. It gives me comfort (some may say a false comfort),it brings me peace, it helps me deal with grief, it gives order and sanity in a crazy world. When I go to church, I feel a special spirituality that is very much like meditation...the Catholics are good at that LOL and I think that's one reason I find solace there. I was iffy about religion, God, the afterlife, etc. till I lost my parents,many friends etc...the natural effects of being older. I chose to believe that there was an afterlife (but no hell) in order to stay sane. That's about it for me.
joey

Like joey above, I have experienced many religions in my soon to be 50 years (Oct)......and from what "I" have seen, it is the pagans that have lived their lives closet to their religion......the Christians that I know/have known do almost everything their bible tells them not to do....
As to my religion, I follow the main tenet, "An it harm none, do what thou will" Including myself. I'm respectful of all living things, including those that give their life, for nourishment for me.....I not a liar and I don't cheat, nor do I wish to cheat or fantasize about cheating....I personally feel my religion makes me a better person!

Originally posted by Mindsmog
you have apoint xpert11 , thats exactly what i said earlier in my thread, the bible or any other scripture has been " Mis-translated" I dont believe it has been changed on purpose, maybe just misunderstood? but ultimately it's up to each individual to choose his/her own pathway, thanks for the responses

Now Couldnt I assume that the "western world" is built on " Mis-translated" false hoods. Mayabe we were spose to have more then one wife after all? (1 wife would be enough for me after all looking after a women takes a lot of work!)

Religion should be used as a starting point for those who seek their god.
In my opinion, people should use it to ask themselves further questions. They should not take it and assume that it has all of the answers but use it to ask further questions.

I believe that a person who takes a religion and doesn't question it has failed in utilising it properly. By not questioning, one cannot learn.

Religion is not the be-all and end-all as the Churches over history have forced people to believe. Religion itself evolves and there is no reason why a man cannot pick up a holy scriputure and interpret things for himself whilst using accepted doctrine as a guideline. As the spiritual learning of the individual evolves, I believe that the religion should be allowed to evolve too.

Personally, I use religion as a basis for learning. Most religions contain the fundamentals that a man needs to begin his journey and some contain certain gems of wisdom that can aid an individual along the way. But more importantly, it is the catalyst that starts the whole process off.

Originally posted by xpert11
Okay then why has the bible changed then?

Where is it changed? I have seen all versions and it seems to all be the same. Where has it been changed to suit our needs?

Personal spirituality and/or Religion doesn't always have to be about 'God' either. Although that also depends on one's meaning of the word 'God' as well which can vary from an extremely generalized concept to a very specific personal entity.

The best example of this would be the original form of Buddhism which was concerned not with answering such questions as 'Who or What is God' but in how to remove personal suffering from one's own life. Another would be the original form of Taoism. Over time though both of these as all other types of Religious/Philosophical/Theological ideas expand beyond, IMO, their simple and useful truth, which was more complete as is.

Personally, I think that most people mistake their bible(s), their church(s) and so forth, for their Religion. For example: In terms of a Christian, it's not your bible or your church that makes you a true Christian. If it worked that way then Jesus could have just spent all his time in the Publishing business, printing up bibles and handing them out to everyone. Even knowing the bible word for word doesn't make a difference unless one understands what is written and why and then how to apply it in ones own life.

Why else would he speak in parables as do most other spiritual texts which are considered as true today as the day they were written? It's because not everything can be broken down into words or language or pictures and so when using that as your method of communication it must be presented as a riddle, koan, song, metaphor, etc. It's not the words but the story they tell that is important, as well as the more hidden meaning that isn't being told is equally important. I realize that sounds kinda confusing, but hopefully most get what I'm trying to say....

Vision is the art of seeing the invisible. -Jonathan Swift

The most important thing in communication is to hear what isn't being said.
-- Peter F. Drucker.

Change is the only Constant! - I Ching

If you want to be whole, let yourself be partial. If you want to become straight, let yourself be crooked. If you want to become full, let yourself become empty. If you want to be reborn, Let yourself die. If you want to be given everything, give everything up. - Tao Te Ching

Originally posted by infovacume

Originally posted by xpert11
Okay then why has the bible changed then?

Where is it changed? I have seen all versions and it seems to all be the same. Where has it been changed to suit our needs?

Perhaps the bible has been Mis-translated a bit like when you buy a new TV and the manual has been translated from japanese and is missing half its contends. Perhaps a more accurate statement would be that the bible is used by people to justifier there views. (it was used to justifier slavery and women not Legally being able to vote. Today it is used against gays & gays marriage.)

Originally posted by infovacume

Originally posted by xpert11
Okay then why has the bible changed then?

Where is it changed? I have seen all versions and it seems to all be the same. Where has it been changed to suit our needs?

Your kidding right!? If this is a subject of interest to have you not researched it!?

For one we have King James This infamous King of England cast a veil over the treasures in this ancient writing. The language he chose was not the common English of the day,,,, but the obscure language of the royal court he commanded. He chose a language not only foreign to the common people, but one so simplistic that it was totally inadequate to properly render the languages it replaced. The competence of the translators was really of little importance considering the true agenda of this despotic, authoritarian and repressive monarch. He had only two goals. One was his desire to be a god-king by affirming the "divine right of kings" and the other was to eliminate the access of the common people to these works. To accomplish this end, he gave his hand picked supervisor of the project, the Bishop of London, strict dogmatic instruction and gave final approval to the book that bears his name. Had it not been what he wanted, it would never have been published. The result is a language nobody understands, numerous purposeful mistranslations and so many words added or deleted, the toll is incalculable. The fruit of his labor has held fast over four centuries. In the world of Bible-based religions, there are more denominations than books in the Bible, more sub-denominations than chapters and more pastoral schisms than verses.

Then we have dozens of words that do not translate from the original language properly, completely changing it's original meaning., and the fact that the bible has been translated into some 400 versions, each time having someone for what-ever- reasons, change parts of it....do your research and learn for yourself.....this is the main thing I get upset with at the Christian religion, "most" people who call themselves Christians, don't even know this much about their own belief structure, they do no study of their religion, than will argue with you about the bible

Well, I wouldn't call Christianity MY religion - I don't follow it, but most of my "religious" or spiritual views stem from the basics of Christianity, i.e. God, Jesus, and all the views and principles set out in the bible, regardless of the "real" events.

What Christianity did for society, however, was to keep it together. Lets face it, it was the backbone of good society for as far back as anyone could look - how many thugs and random acts of violence occurred 1000 years ago compared to today? I know that will prompt any Non-believer or Cynics to blow up and quote facts of mass murder and destruction 1000 years ago, but look at society as a whole - who was safer realy? Unfortunately, I don't know exactly how it happened but I know politics is part of it, Christianity, and Relligion in general, is being wiped out, made redundant and useless. This is done by what I see as encouraging ethnic minoritys to feel equal in countrys that are not their own. Sound Racist? I know, and it ashames me because I am far from racist, but political correctness has made it sadly true - ethnic minoritys in religions are given special treatment in Brittain, and Christianity is slowly being driven out. At the same time though, this is destroying all religion by making the country split into several different religions. This causes radicals from all sides, including christianity, to either feel disconnected from their religion or country, angry towards other religions, or just disgruntled with religion as a whole.

In short, by pushing more religions together, they are trivialising the beliefs of every seperate religion by basically putting out the Message - "We don't mind what you believe in, we won't impose our nations dominant religion on our citizens, because we dont believe any of them and your all crazy to us". It's disguised as democracy, let them choose what to do, but it leads to seperation, division, and loss of meaning for many. Kings of old imposed their religion on their citizens, as they owned the country, and no matter how tyrannical or abusive these kings were, it kept the citizens in check, and I'd soon give in to that kind of demand in return for a more peaceful land,

Originally posted by chebob
What Christianity did for society, however, was to keep it together. Lets face it, it was the backbone of good society for as far back as anyone could look - how many thugs and random acts of violence occurred 1000 years ago compared to today?

Well, let's see....Here are some events around 1000 years ago that sound nice!! :p

1002AD: Vikings: Goaded beyond endurance by Danes/Vikings and by paying danegeld, English King Aethelred who has married Emma De Conteville , sister of Duke of Normandy, orders a massacre of Danes in November, on St Brice's Day, a Saturday, when Danes customarily bathed. Some women had their breasts cut off, others were buried alive in the ground. Children were dashed to pieces against posts and stones. King Svein Forkbeard suspects that his own sister had been victim of massacre and plans more attacks.

1002AD: From France, Count Fulk Nerra, Fulk Anjou "The Terrible", known for his crimes of violence as he expanded his territory, makes a pilgrimage to the Holy Land to expiate his sins. He later made two more pilgrimages.

Vikings and a Massacre: Ireland and Dublin, Discovery in Kilkenny, Southern Ireland, of Viking artifacts circa 1000AD, of coins and jewelery, particularly, button made of fine-woven silver wire. Artifacts found at site of a massacre and to be displayed in Dublin. (As reported in Australia on 15 January 2000)

1002-1005AD: Conquest of Burgundy by Robert (The Pious) of France.

I know that will prompt any Non-believer or Cynics to blow up and quote facts of mass murder and destruction 1000 years ago, but look at society as a whole - who was safer realy?

I'm not trying to be the perfect example of what you are saying above or anything. I am however pointing out that War, Murder, Genocide, Religious/Political Corruption, etc. is by no means anything new. We've just become more efficient at it in modern times. After all, 'Practice makes Perfect' as they say...

By the early Middle Ages (ca. 600 CE), the popes in Rome had become corrupt and ineffectual—often they were also the uneducated and illiterate kin of corrupt barbarians—or so they seemed in Asian eyes. Eventually, the growing sense of estrangement between Church officials in Rome and Constantinople led to the division of Christianity into Western Catholic and Eastern Orthodox factions. This, in turn, opened the door to military conflicts like the Crusades.

In short, by pushing more religions together, they are trivialising the beliefs of every seperate religion by basically putting out the Message - "We don't mind what you believe in, we won't impose our nations dominant religion on our citizens, because we dont believe any of them and your all crazy to us". It's disguised as democracy, let them choose what to do, but it leads to seperation, division, and loss of meaning for many. Kings of old imposed their religion on their citizens, as they owned the country, and no matter how tyrannical or abusive these kings were, it kept the citizens in check, and I'd soon give in to that kind of demand in return for a more peaceful land,

I see what you're saying, but couldn't it also be seen from a different perspective as well? Perhaps that people are now becoming aware of the fact that thousands of years of fighting have come, at least in part, because of Religious Intolerances & Persecution. So the message everyone is sending out is more along the lines of, 'Look, it's fine with us if you follow some kind of religious practice, whatever it may be, just as long as you can do so without persecuting everyone else who may not agree with you!! We're all sick of that sh*t now, so if you people can't play nice with one another, then we're gonna have to call off play time all together!!'

As for needing a Ruler to take charge and force beliefs and lifestyles upon me, I say 'NO F'ING WAY!!' I, nor most other intelligent & capable people need or want a life which is chosen by someone else other than ourselves. Just because 'many people feel a loss of meaning' does not mean you force some arbitrary meaning upon them. It means they need to figure out what the hell they are doing with themselves and their own lives on their own for once, instead of just waddling along with some convenient like minded flock.

Once again this goes right back to the insane idea that we must all think and believe exactly the same thing and if not, than we should be forced. What the hell difference should it make to anyone else if I wanted to believe that God has 16 eyes, 27 heads, lives in the ocean, and manifests in our dreams at night to help guide us through our waking lives, or something along those lines??? As long as I allow everyone else to believe what they wanted to also and all of us still act friendly and civil to each other, what difference does it make???

I can understand why you feel the way you do mOjOm, theres a very fine line between my view and yours. It took a lot of self exploration to come to my point of view, and before that I was an atheist who only cared about myself, it was a big change.

But despite the atrocitys of the past and the notion of free-will, I would personally still give up free will for a safer enviroment, although I completely accept that many people wouldn't: it's just my way personality that makes me want what I do. I will always think that if Britain had stuck to Christianity in some form and made it a requirement of citizens, The UK would be a safer, less dangerous place. As a citizen, a victim of street crime too often, and a believer in God, that is my only natural opinion, i'm sure you could agree.