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Alabama Judge Gives Criminals Choice: Go to Jail or Go to Church

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posted on Sep, 23 2011 @ 09:45 PM
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Originally posted by queenofsheba
reply to post by Domo1
 


For nonviolent offenders, especially drug cases, I'm all for church and a treatment/support program. What can it hurt?


What can it hurt?

Well for one thing its a violation of Separation of Church and State.




posted on Sep, 23 2011 @ 09:46 PM
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Originally posted by UniverSoul

Originally posted by CynicalDrivel
This is Alabama we're talking about, here. The choices are Baptist, Church of Christ, or ICP .
Seriously, the majority of the counties are dry counties because the overwhelming majority of folks in Alabama are Christians. Most wouldn't know that another faith exists.

insane clown posse?
haha
It's funny, but I'm dead serious.



posted on Sep, 23 2011 @ 09:48 PM
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Originally posted by TheOneElectric
reply to post by JohnnyCanuck
 
What constitutes as the right side of the tracks?

OK, I misspoke myself...what I meant was the right path...not necessarily a religious one, but a moral one. Again, I'm no bible-thumper, but I recognise the value of community and good people doing good works.



posted on Sep, 23 2011 @ 09:49 PM
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reply to post by Annee
 


It's an option though, a choice that is not mandated or ordered by the court. I would agree with you if it were ordered by the court. Teen Challenge is a Christian based treatment plan that has a good success rate for treating meth addicts. Some people who get ordered to treatment choose this rather than other treatment plans, such as Hazleden, or AA, NA, etc. If it works and changes lives for the better, then I'm all for it.
edit on 23-9-2011 by queenofsheba because: spelling



posted on Sep, 23 2011 @ 09:49 PM
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Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by CynicalDrivel

This is how countless people who OBVIOUSLY NEED A CRUTCH for the rest of their lives attempt to gain a crutch. Think abou thtis. We b**** and moan that only the mentally weak need a God construct. Guess what it takes to be a repeat offender? So, even at the most snarky and derogatory base mean way of looking at this, it still remains a great thing....as long as it is an active program, much further than plunking your butt in a pew.


My brother was in AA.

They did not use the word God. They did use Higher Power - - - which was explained could be anything that had meaning to you.

My brother who is on a ski patrol used the mountains as his highest power. God is not required.
I know they've relaxed that in the more recent generations. I was directly quoting the thing as it was posted, that's all.



posted on Sep, 23 2011 @ 09:49 PM
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Originally posted by TheOneElectric
As the judge is giving the option for the criminals a choice to go to Church as a form of compensation to the state, we see that a "respect for an establishment of religion" has occurred in not so vague terms or conditions. It's quite clear that this is a breaching of the establishment clause, and by a court no less.


I'm pretty sure there have been other similar cases that were found to be in violation of Separation of Church and State.

As I said (other thread) - - - I go by cases won that set precedence.



posted on Sep, 23 2011 @ 09:50 PM
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Originally posted by CynicalDrivel

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by CynicalDrivel

This is how countless people who OBVIOUSLY NEED A CRUTCH for the rest of their lives attempt to gain a crutch. Think abou thtis. We b**** and moan that only the mentally weak need a God construct. Guess what it takes to be a repeat offender? So, even at the most snarky and derogatory base mean way of looking at this, it still remains a great thing....as long as it is an active program, much further than plunking your butt in a pew.


My brother was in AA.

They did not use the word God. They did use Higher Power - - - which was explained could be anything that had meaning to you.

My brother who is on a ski patrol used the mountains as his highest power. God is not required.


I know they've relaxed that in the more recent generations. I was directly quoting the thing as it was posted, that's all.


Yes I know you were.

But you also commented. Remember Crutch?



posted on Sep, 23 2011 @ 09:53 PM
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reply to post by Annee
 


And Annee, I see your perspective but I also believe in freewill when it comes to changing your life. Being ordered to the county workhouse, jail, prison, doesn't really work for drug offenders. I've seen it and I believe other options need to be available because the system isn't cutting it the way it stands now, and I'm speaking to drug offenders.



posted on Sep, 23 2011 @ 09:54 PM
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Originally posted by queenofsheba
reply to post by Annee
 


It's an option though, a choice that is not mandated or ordered by the court. I would agree with you if it were ordered by the court. Teen Challenge is a Christian based treatment plan that has a good success rate for treating meth addicts. Some people who get ordered to treatment choose this rather than other treatment plans, such as Hazleden, or AA, NA, etc. If it works and changes lives for the better, then I'm all for it.


They can do the same thing without religion.

This kind of thing always reminds me of the soup kitchens that closed because they couldn't "spread the word".

If they weren't allowed to force Jesus on a captive audience - - the audience can go starve. Nice!



posted on Sep, 23 2011 @ 09:58 PM
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Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by CynicalDrivel

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by CynicalDrivel

This is how countless people who OBVIOUSLY NEED A CRUTCH for the rest of their lives attempt to gain a crutch. Think abou thtis. We b**** and moan that only the mentally weak need a God construct. Guess what it takes to be a repeat offender? So, even at the most snarky and derogatory base mean way of looking at this, it still remains a great thing....as long as it is an active program, much further than plunking your butt in a pew.


My brother was in AA.

They did not use the word God. They did use Higher Power - - - which was explained could be anything that had meaning to you.

My brother who is on a ski patrol used the mountains as his highest power. God is not required.


I know they've relaxed that in the more recent generations. I was directly quoting the thing as it was posted, that's all.


Yes I know you were.

But you also commented. Remember Crutch?
lol, Yes, mostly sarcasm. And I explained that Jumped part of my lead-in. Sorry, I'm not fully in here. Happens every time I'm in chat. *shrugs*
edit on 23-9-2011 by CynicalDrivel because: conclusion to lead-in



posted on Sep, 23 2011 @ 09:59 PM
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reply to post by Annee
 


Well, I've never heard of anyone being turned away from a homeless shelter, soup kitchen because of lack of religious beliefs. Perhaps it happens. Judges have offered up different programs such as "Bootcamps" instead of more jail time and that's an alternative as well. I do respect your opinion and understand that some are adamant with regard to the separation of Church and State. I too subscribe to that ideal but from what I've seen personally with meth addiction, especially meth addiction, I think whatever it takes to save a life.

Respectfully...



posted on Sep, 23 2011 @ 10:01 PM
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Originally posted by queenofsheba
reply to post by Annee
 


And Annee, I see your perspective but I also believe in freewill when it comes to changing your life. Being ordered to the county workhouse, jail, prison, doesn't really work for drug offenders. I've seen it and I believe other options need to be available because the system isn't cutting it the way it stands now, and I'm speaking to drug offenders.


You had free will to not commit a crime.

Church? The only other option? That is manipulation to force religion.



posted on Sep, 23 2011 @ 10:03 PM
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Originally posted by queenofsheba
reply to post by Annee
 


Well, I've never heard of anyone being turned away from a homeless shelter, soup kitchen because of lack of religious beliefs.


People were not turned away - - except maybe gays.

They were told they could feed the poor - - but not preach to them. So they shut down.



posted on Sep, 23 2011 @ 10:04 PM
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reply to post by Annee
 


Which is why it's probably not going to work.


AA requires active involvement with your change.

But I would like to see this as an option, but not the ONLY option.



posted on Sep, 23 2011 @ 10:07 PM
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Originally posted by CynicalDrivel
But I would like to see this as an option, but not the ONLY option.


Options to programs instead of jail. But don't most courts already do that?

Making it Church or Jail - - - is not OK. That is manipulation and coercion forcing religion (no matter the religion).



posted on Sep, 23 2011 @ 10:09 PM
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reply to post by Annee
 


I went to an AA meeting once with a friend for moral support. There was a guy who said an ashtray was his higher power.

AA can help many people if you buy into it. It's just something to replace your drinking so you wont drink. Many people view AA as a cult and some people do treat it as a religion.

I feel that even though you say god is not required there is something seriously wrong with this higher power can be anything business. A higher power needs to be just that, a higher power than yourself such as god. There is no way anyone is going to tell me an ashtray can really be this guys higher power. The ashtray has no power at all - except the power the person assigns it. But this is the same as the power that comes from the person himself, not a higher power than himself, therefore it is seriously flawed and in that is how AA becomes a religion unto itself.

On the Op, lets say a violent criminal with mob ties gets caught for a non violent crime and it's his first time caught. He chooses to go to church. he sends a bunch of his buddies to the priests house to threaten raping his wife and daughters if the priest does not report to the officials each week that the criminal has been there. fearing for his families well being the priest complies. The criminal never sets a foot in church and gets off Scott free.



posted on Sep, 23 2011 @ 10:10 PM
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How about this judge contact some Atheist groups in the area - - - and see if they have any programs or recommendations.

Atheists are becoming more socially involved. I would bet non-religious programs are also available.



posted on Sep, 23 2011 @ 10:11 PM
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reply to post by Annee
 


Well, okay....a drug crime? Really? I suppose all those "criminals" provide all those good paying state and federal jobs, so those druggies have their place in society. Without them, think of all the people that would be out of work. Big sigh...



posted on Sep, 23 2011 @ 10:12 PM
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Originally posted by JohnPhoenix
reply to post by Annee
 


I went to an AA meeting once with a friend for moral support. There was a guy who said an ashtray was his higher power.

AA can help many people if you buy into it. It's just something to replace your drinking so you wont drink. Many people view AA as a cult and some people do treat it as a religion.


Yes - - my brother said if you need the program - - you should use it to move on.

If you don't move on - - you become an addict to the program - - rather then healing and becoming personally responsible for yourself.



posted on Sep, 23 2011 @ 10:14 PM
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Originally posted by queenofsheba
reply to post by Annee
 


Well, okay....a drug crime? Really? I suppose all those "criminals" provide all those good paying state and federal jobs, so those druggies have their place in society. Without them, think of all the people that would be out of work. Big sigh...


You're religious aren't you.




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