It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

IDF raises alert level

page: 4
6
<< 1  2  3   >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Sep, 30 2011 @ 05:09 PM
link   
These criteria make no sense. Israel demands of Fatah, "no peace talks until you have a unity government." Fatah and Hamas make an agreement, and Israel says "No peace talks with you because you work with Hamas." Israeli hardliners do not want to talk peace with Palestinian hardliners, they never did, and they never will.

To say that this is all the Arabs' fault is baloney. To repeatedly punish the moderate Palestinian leadership and the populace for the actions of the distant hardliners is baloney. Why should Fatah continue to play by Israel's baloney rules when they are constantly punished for things that they did not do or that they are struggling to control?

You never answer this, you just resort to "Well, there are still Palestinian hardliners, so we will punish Palestinians collectively for the existence of Hamas!" This does not make sense. How are you ever going to get a reasonable peace debate going when you hurt the less guilty party as retaliation against the more guilty party? Why would someone negotiate with you when you beat them for their brother's actions?




posted on Sep, 30 2011 @ 05:29 PM
link   
reply to post by Xcathdra
 



If you want peace, then quit attacking Israel.
If you want your own state, quit attacking Israel.
If you want the West Bank settlements brought up, quit attacking Israel.
You want recognition as a Palestinian government, then recognize Israel.


Illegal settlements 'are" an attack on Palestine and Israel even announce these attacks on the media..
While they continue every Palestinian has every right to defend their homeland..

Hamas has every right to defend Palestine, not just Gaza..
If Washington was being attacked you don't think Texas has a right to step in and help??
Your argument is ridiculous..

As for recognition of a Palestine state, they don't need stinking Israel to recognize them..
Israel should back off and let the world decide..
edit on 30-9-2011 by backinblack because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 30 2011 @ 06:35 PM
link   
reply to post by bigyin
 


Actually its not comedic at all. As I and others have stated, in that part of the world distance is defense. If you look at close up maps of the west bank and settlements, you see a defensive pattern in place. Check the maps about the security zone / fence and its obvious what Israel is doing.

Its one thing for Israel to prepare defenses against say Turkey. They will have advanced warning of anything coming their way and vice versa. Now, looking at the west Bank and Gaza, checking their proximity to major Israeli cities and military installations, land = distance = defensive position = able to react / see it coming a few seconds before it hits, which is better than not seeing it at all.

I know this particular topic becomes heated by all involved. All I am suggesting is to take a close look at those zones, check the distances involved from points to major Israli cities, and add that together with hamas and other entites calling on Israels destruction.

When the threat is across the street, and you have the ability to move them down the block, yes it becomes a defensive plan.



posted on Sep, 30 2011 @ 06:47 PM
link   

Originally posted by SmedleyBurlap
These criteria make no sense. Israel demands of Fatah, "no peace talks until you have a unity government." Fatah and Hamas make an agreement, and Israel says "No peace talks with you because you work with Hamas." Israeli hardliners do not want to talk peace with Palestinian hardliners, they never did, and they never will.


Actually Israel has made an attempt to work with Hamas. The sticking point is the recognition of Israel. Even press release from Hamas in this area are blunt. They will never accept Israel, and while they support the creation of a Palestinian state, they have criteria that wont be honored.

So again, Hamas derails it. When there were dsicussions about the Unity Government, at the very end of the day Hamas dropped out and wants nothing to do with the government. Why? Because, as Abbas has said, any palestinian government will be required by law to recognize Israel and its government if they expect to have the same reciprocated (however the comments about Israeli / Jews seems to run counter, but whatever).



Originally posted by SmedleyBurlap
To say that this is all the Arabs' fault is baloney. To repeatedly punish the moderate Palestinian leadership and the populace for the actions of the distant hardliners is baloney. Why should Fatah continue to play by Israel's baloney rules when they are constantly punished for things that they did not do or that they are struggling to control?


We can play the tit for tat game if you want, with the murdering of Isralis while they sleep in the West bank area. Why has Fatah not applied pressure to get Hamas to knock their crap off? Israel and Fatah actually were in the process of working together to build a state of the art palestinian city in the west bank, and as far as I know the construction conitinues.

Any Palestinian State is going to include the West Bank and Gaza. Right now you are right, Fatah is in charge of the west bank. That does not mean it will remain that way. If Hamas by some fluke is put into the position of governing over both, the defensive build in the West bank is valid.

People are looking at the here and now, and are failing to look down the road 1,3,5, 10, 20 years. We have already seen how well Hamas and Fatah work together, which is to say they mixed like oil and water.

Think long term....



Originally posted by SmedleyBurlap
You never answer this, you just resort to "Well, there are still Palestinian hardliners, so we will punish Palestinians collectively for the existence of Hamas!" This does not make sense. How are you ever going to get a reasonable peace debate going when you hurt the less guilty party as retaliation against the more guilty party? Why would someone negotiate with you when you beat them for their brother's actions?


When they dont bother to stop their brother and look the other way, are they not as culpable? One would think they would beat the crap out of their brothers to force them to stop their actions since it does absolutely no good, on either side. When Palestinian security services dont bother to stop the actions, its a tacid approval of those actions.


Whats worse -

A guy shooting and killing another human being?
Or the brother of the shooter who knew in advance what was going to happen and remained silent instead of stopping it?


What do you think its going to take to slow the armed actions against each other?
What do you think its going to take for both sides to start building bits and pieces of trust here and there?
What do you think its going to take for Israel and an independant Palestine living side by side as brothers?
edit on 30-9-2011 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 30 2011 @ 07:04 PM
link   
reply to post by Xcathdra
 



What do you think its going to take for Israel and an independant Palestine living side by side as brothers?


Israel stopping the Illegal settlements would be a start..

What do you think of Israel stating at the UN that hey want peace one day and announcing 1100 new Illegal settlement homes the next day??

Does that sound like they are serious about peace???



posted on Sep, 30 2011 @ 07:14 PM
link   
reply to post by Skellon
 


They did not submit a request for statehood. They are already a state just as Israel. They submitted a bid for UN membership, which is a step above for sure.



posted on Sep, 30 2011 @ 07:23 PM
link   
reply to post by Corruption Exposed
 


Skellon, you are one of the few people on the Israeli side of the argument who I actually take seriously. Do you honestly think that the raised terror alert was necessary? We all know Palestine has been rather peaceful for a while now. They have suffered long enough to know better than escalate aggressions with the wonderful government of Israel.

Netanyahu extended his hand in peace to Palestine, then slapped them in the face right after with the announcement of 1600 new homes in East Jerusalem, and the plan to annex the West Bank. Count those innocents in Israel lucky that they have not been bombarded with rockets yet.

I can elaborate on any of my claims. Just ask and I will provide valid sources.

I know you have a heart, compared to most supporters of Israel. Do you really think that all this extremism from Israel is needed?

I have a link to numbers too, if you are interested. So please do not use numbers as the justification for Israeli actions.

In my opinion, this raised alert is nothing more than semantics, but that is just my opinion.



posted on Sep, 30 2011 @ 07:55 PM
link   
Skellon... I responded to your message you sent me. I am willing to discuss it privately or in the thread. Please acknowledge my response. I was kind enough to answer your query.



posted on Sep, 30 2011 @ 10:28 PM
link   

Originally posted by Corruption Exposed
reply to post by Skellon
 


They did not submit a request for statehood. They are already a state just as Israel. They submitted a bid for UN membership, which is a step above for sure.


Actually it looks like Abbas did submit the formal request for Palestinian territory to be recognized as a full member nation -

Palestinian UN Statehood Bid: Mahmoud Abbas Submits Formal Request For Member State Status

Unless there is some type of difference between the request made and the request to become a sovereign country, which Palestine is not.



posted on Sep, 30 2011 @ 10:31 PM
link   
reply to post by Corruption Exposed
 


I was under the impression the Israeli action was in response to mass demonstrations that were planned for that day by Palestinians.

Raising an alert level doesnt mean anything but that. They have more resources on standby on the off chance something does go wrong and things go down hill. From the looks of things though both sides appeared to make it through no worse for wear.

It reminds me of the G-8 / G-20 demonstrations. You will always have a small group trying to push an agenda and using these types of lawful gatherings to do their thing - IE small groups screw it up for everyone else.



posted on Oct, 1 2011 @ 09:16 AM
link   
reply to post by Xcathdra
 


There's a subtle difference, like the difference between "Abolish the Jewish State in Israel" and "Israel has a right to exist." An application for statehood would mean that they are asking to be granted sovereignty by the UN. An application for membership means that they recognize themselves as a sovereign nation and ask the UN to do the same.


If Hamas by some fluke is put into the position of governing over both, the defensive build in the West bank is valid.

So your justification is that in a hypothetical future the hardliners may take control of the entire territory of Palestine and so Israel is justified to punish hardliners, moderates and uninvolved citizens in the present because of this mere possibility?

Sounds like provocation to me!



posted on Oct, 2 2011 @ 07:39 PM
link   
reply to post by SmedleyBurlap
 


Justification comes from the actions of Hamas and other groups along the same lines as well as some Arab governments who want nothing more than to wipe Israel off the map. Ahmadenijad has stated this time and again, the Ayatollah just stated it and Hamas has it in their charter.

Hamas refuses to recognize Israel, and have stated they never will since they claim all of Israel as their territory.

That alone is all the justification Israel needs. You dont have to wait for a person who is pointing a gun at you to pull the trigger in order to take action. Hamas has had the loaded gun pointing at Israels head since day one.

Hamas, who is the governing group in Gaza, has no standing to continue their attacks on Israel. Hamas is not the governing body in the West Bank. All Isreali trrops and settlements have been removed from Gaza, and yet Hamas still kills.

Again - justification for ISraeli actions.
edit on 2-10-2011 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 03:07 PM
link   
reply to post by Xcathdra
 


Again - justification for ISraeli actions.

Hamas represent the Palestinians regardless of where they are..

They know that Gaza's turn will come and are NOT prepared to wait till it's too late..

You know mate, those ILLEGAL SETTLEMENTS that you seem to pretend don't exist and aren't continuing to this day..



posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 03:15 PM
link   
reply to post by backinblack
 


This is latest zionist attrocity

Israel Mosque torched by extremists





posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 03:19 PM
link   

Originally posted by Kemal
Sounds like a false flag attack so the UN decides not to give independence to Palestine.

What do you think?

Ding ding ding *Winner*



posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 07:10 PM
link   

Originally posted by bigyin
reply to post by backinblack
 


This is latest zionist attrocity

Israel Mosque torched by extremists




I would love to show you articles of christian churches / synagogues being torched in arab countries, but there arent any, courtesy of Islamic zealots. Well, except for a few coptic churches in Egypt, where the local muslim population had to protect the church from being torched during their Christmas celebration.


edit on 3-10-2011 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 3 2011 @ 08:11 PM
link   
Hamas is in trouble if a palestinian state is approved.

This would allow the palestinian authority to send in there own people to take control of Gaza and to arrest the Hamas leadership.



posted on Oct, 5 2011 @ 03:33 AM
link   

Originally posted by ANNED
Hamas is in trouble if a palestinian state is approved.

This would allow the palestinian authority to send in there own people to take control of Gaza and to arrest the Hamas leadership.


Well that could be a good thing but I'd hope they got a fair trial..

Deliberate targeting of civilians should definitely be punished on both sides IMO..



new topics

top topics



 
6
<< 1  2  3   >>

log in

join