IDF raises alert level

So you are telling me that a Jew in the state of Palestine wouldnt be a second class citizen? LMAO!!!! Would they even be alllowed period?

Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by princeofpeace

 

But Abbas says he's not opposed to Israel itself, just Jews.

NO, he's opposed to a Jewish state where if you're not a Jew then you are a 2nd class citizen and there is no guarantee of right of return..

Xcathdra spins and twists words all the time..
Read the actual quotes yourself, don't read theirs.

reply to post by princeofpeace


There are around 500.000 jews in Palestine and no, they are NOT welcome but only because they didn't ask permission to be there..

They simply invaded,stole land and bulldozed Palestinian homes to build their own..

Would you honestly welcome them??

reply to post by Xcathdra


This does not make sense.

You say this as though it means that Abbas and the Palestinian Authority leadership is secretly anti-semitic. Your evidence is based on the actions and attitudes of racist Israeli policy, not racist Palestinian policy.

To wit:

People should look up what the requirements are to be an Israeli citizen. By Abbas saying no Israelis allowed, he is essentuially saying in a fancy ass manner no Jews.

The requirements to be an Israeli citizen are waived if you are Jewish by descent. If you are a Jew by blood then you are automatically granted Israeli citizenship when you apply. This is a policy of the Israeli government that does not apply to any other ethnic group.

Abbas says that Palestine should have no Israeli [citizens]. That means that the Jews that remain in Palestine should not possess citizenship in Israel. This is simple: they need only renounce their citizenship or refuse to take it up in the first place.

Israel, however, implicitly recognizes all Jews everywhere as citizens of Israel. This means that even if an individual Jew wants nothing to do with Israel, the state will recognize them as a citizen. This makes the national loyalties of any and all Jews around the world suspect. In Palestine this is a serious issue, because any Jews in Palestine stand a very good chance of being Israeli citizens and having a vested interest in the success of the State of Israel.

When Abbas says no israelis in Palestine, this means the abolition of the racist Law of Return, which turns all Jews into automatic Israeli citizens. When Israel hears "no Israelis in Palestine" they hear "No Jews in Palestine" because they have deliberately erased the line between Jew and Israeli citizen. This justifies eternal paranoia under the cover of correcting the grave historical and humanitarian error that made a Jewish Homeland necessary.

reply to post by SmedleyBurlap


No... what I am pointing out is the fact all politics are local. Prior to the forming of a Palestinian state you have several groups running their own agendas from one degree to another. Hamas in Gaza, Fatah in the West Bank, the PLO, Hezzbullah moving into various Arab governments (like Syria and Iran).

Now that it has moved forward Abbas is now forced to represtn groups he never has before (offically). Accepting the existence of Israel prior to the UN move Abbas had his issues with Israel, but not to the extent we are seeing now.

This is why I am saying the Palestinians are going to be screwed out of yet another chance for their own sovereign state. It is going to be impossible for Abbas to represent every single group (Arab / Palestinian) in a manner those groups will find acceptable.

As an example we can look at Hamas, who has been back and forth on a Palestinian State. They now support the creation but refuse to acknowledge Israels right to exist. This means that any positive move between Abbas and Israel could be seen as a no go for members of Hamas, who will then take action on their own (and we have seen this time and again).

It takes 2 to tango, and while Israel is partially responsible, its not entirely their fault.

Why am I saying Palestinians are going to be crewed voer yet again?

Because the moment Palestine becomes a reality, a sovereign nation, you are going to have groups like Hamas who won't care. In their mind they are justified in continuing their attacks on Israel. Israel will respond by defending itself, and its going to force any Palestinian government into the position of cracking down on Hamas, which will be spun as a traiterous act (again we have seen that line before as well).

Eventually you will see the government break back into their respective origional groups. Hamas and Fatah couldnt get along when they had a unity government, in part because of Hamas's goal towards Israel.

Do you really expect Hamas to take orders from a group that is working with Israel?

Hence the setup and ultimate failure of this endeavor.

People seem to be ignoring the fact that once soveriegn, any attacks on Israel from Palestinian territory is going to result in an actual war (since there is a change in status).

Also, as people like to point out with Israel, a Palestinian state is going to be forced to abide by UN resolutions and international law, specifically when it comes to launching rockets into Israeli territory.

We can go back and forth all day about Israel, Palestine and who complys with the UN, so theri is no point doing it here.

Im just making observations that others tend to ignore or overlook.

Not having their own sovereign territory before, its going to take some doing for Palestine to adapt to that new reality.

reply to post by Xcathdra

It takes 2 to tango, and while Israel is partially responsible, its not entirely their fault.

You're a joke....
Israel JUST announced approval for ANOTHER 1100 settlement homes in occupied territory..
Oh, plus schools, shops and an industrial zone..

As I clearly stated and Israel clearly shows, they DO NOT WANT PEACE..

NEVER HAVE, NEVER WILL.

reply to post by Xcathdra


It goes both ways, as you say. When Israel attacks Hamas (and they will) after Palestinian independence, it will be an act of war instead of an 'internal police action' or whatever legal fiction they use to cover up their war crimes these days. This will justify international action in the defense of Palestine. If Israel does anything to attack Palestine, even if they claim that it is in self-defense against an aggressive foreign nation, it can and will be construed as an act of war.

Now, you say that Israel will pressure Fatah to crack down on Hamas, but I do not see this happening (and neither do you). Fatah will not 'crack down' on Hamas. Palestine will be a broken state, divided by miles of Israel. Fatah cannot project its power to 'crack down' on Hamas, even if they wanted to. They would rather reconcile, in any case. Israel may use Fatah's failure to crack down on Hamas as a pretense for war, but only western nations will buy this excuse. Everyone else, including the liberals and internationalists of the West, will see t hat the reason Hamas cannot be controlled is that Palestine is a broken state, nobody is able to control it, and that this is Israel's fault. Palestine will be divided in two, and much like Pakistan after the partition of India, it will not be a viable entity. Much like Pakistan, the colonial masters will be blamed by history.

Israel may not have started this (ha) but they have all the power in this situation. They can change things or let them go on as they are. Unfortunately for everybody involved, it seems that hardliners are never going to relinquish power and that those moderates who do seek peace will be forced to take hard positions just to maintain their office.

reply to post by SmedleyBurlap


You mean when Israel responds to an attack from Hamas. As others continually point out thatthe little rockets dont do damage, the dead Israeli civilians killed by them would beg to differ.

Hamas has gone on record stating they wont stop their attacks on Israel. Abbas goes on record stating no jews allowed.

Where do you think this is going to go?

Originally posted by Xcathdra
reply to post by SmedleyBurlap

 

You mean when Israel responds to an attack from Hamas. As others continually point out thatthe little rockets dont do damage, the dead Israeli civilians killed by them would beg to differ.
Hamas has gone on record stating they wont stop their attacks on Israel. Abbas goes on record stating no jews allowed.
Where do you think this is going to go?

Illegal Settlements=Invading force=Justified Defense..

EVERY thread you REFUSE to mention the CONTINUED ILLEGAL SETTLEMENTS..

Until you do, you are just sprouting ONE side of the debate..

It's almost like you are in denial of ANY Israeli actions..
It's Hamas firing piddly missiles for no reason in your deluded mind..

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reply to post by Paulioetc15


Hamas is not the little angel people like to portray them as. Here are some videos of how Hamas, while screaming about Israel violating international law, does the same. Apparently a double standard does exist with hamas because they apparently arent intelligent enough to fight their own battles. They would rather have their kids martyr themselves at IDF checkpoints.

Hamas purposely places their civilians in harms way in order to run up the boudy count when Israel responds to the attacks.

Hamas has gone on record stating they will never acknowledges Israels right to exist, and will do whatever they can to wipe them off the map.

Im not sure how that translates into peace by giving them their own nation to wage war from. Hamas could care less about the '67 borders - they want it all.

Why should nations get behind the Palestinians who are blatently stating Israel must go? Why get behind Abbas when he says no jews allowed in Palestine? Or when the PLO ambassador makes the same comment while in the US?

As I have said time and time again, the Palestinian people are getting screwed over by Terrorists (Hamas) Arab governments who want to see Israel gone, and by Fatah for failing to do whats right.

Number of times Palestinians almost got their own state - A bunch
Who keeps sabotaging it? - Arabs / terror groups

Why?

Because without the excuse of a palestinian state, arab governments / hamas / etc would have NO reasons to attack Israel. So instead they just screw their own people over while killing not only Israeli civilians, but their own.

Yup... that just screams "im responsible enough to have my own country".





From a school




From a populated area






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reply to post by Xcathdra


good videos LOL. I just found this video Israel crying so i thought i post it here. Don't worry i know what the Hamas is like.

Is it "Lets post propaganda videos time".?????

I'm sure both sides pf the debate could post hundreds but we've seen them all before so it just shows desperation IMO

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reply to post by Xcathdra


There's a double standard on your side, too. You can't cry double standard and then hold one yourself. That doesn't work, your criticism loses credibility.

You also act like the offer of a Palestinian state was given so generously so many times in the past and that it would have been a lovely solution at any point in time. The lands reserved for the Palestinian Arabs have been shrinking for years and years because of expanding Jewish settlements. Since before the state was established, Jewish settlers have been displacing Arab natives and expanding their claim to lands in the Levant. The partition plans kept becoming more and more pro-Jewish, even though they were a minority of the population. You act like Israel was doing the Palestinian people a favour, but it was offering them the rump of their lands back and they were only doing it to goad the leadership.

It was always an insult and not a serious offer of peace.

reply to post by SmedleyBurlap


Consider the following...

Had Palestinians / Arab government gone along with any one of the statehood plans they would already be ahead of the game.

Currently Palestinians are screwed because of their leadership / they are not a soveriegn country. What we have right now is a death cycle and nothing more.

Would it not make sense to get a Palestinian State, get it under control of a palestinian government, and get member status at the UN.

Once that is done then they can go back and work with ISrael to resolve any outstanding issues. A soveriegn state, full representation at the UN will be helpful when resolving those issues because of the change in status. It becomes a border dispute among nations and full member status carries more weight.

When Palestinian security forces look the other way when Hamas launches rockets at Israel, or any other action towards Israel for that matter, how do you think that looks to Israel?

Why cooperate with people who are bent on your destruction?

What do you think would happen if Palestinians get their own state and Iran and Syria base troops there?

While people concentrate on the West Bank expansion and the land grab, you have to ask yourself why they are doing it. When Hamas / Iran etc call for the destruction of Israel, its only logical to start making a gap for an eventual confrontation.

When the Palestinians kill 11 Israeli olympic team members (Munich Massacre) and their coaches, what exactly does that solve? How are they valid targets?

Then we have Black September in Jordan, where once again Palestinian militants attempted to overthrow the King. The King was forced to send in troops to end the threat to them, and a few thousand Palestinians were killed in the process, and the remainder of the Palestinians were booted out of the country and sent to Lebanon.

As I said, Palestinians / Hamas dont want peace... They want Israel destroyed.

reply to post by Xcathdra


Abbas is part of the Fatah government, based in Judea and Samaria. Hamas is an irridentist government based in Gaza. Do you not understand why it might be difficult or one side to gain control over the other?

When Hamas starts calling for your destruction, you don't turn around and attack the party that tries to resolve the problem peacefully.

The destruction of Israel would be a peace scenario, anyway. You say they don't want peace, but they plainly do, even in your distorted vision of all Palestinians as terrorists and collaborators. Israel doesn't want peace either. It wants the complete occupation of Palestine by Jews. That is a peace scenario that involves eradicating the Palestinians.

But its distortion either way to say that "Israel" or "Palestine" want to destroy each other. That is an oversimplification.

reply to post by SmedleyBurlap


There is no unity government in place, so the onlything Hamas should be concerned about is Gaza, where there is no Israeli presence.

You and others seem to dance around that point. Hamas has no grounds to continue to attack Israel. They do not control the west bank, and they are not part of the Fatah government in the West Bank.

The problem between the 2 groups started when Hamas decided to liquidate some Fatah members, including one incident where a wife received her husband, in a box sliced up into steaks.

Hamas will not stop until Israel is destroyed. Again, Hamas hijacks the Palestinian issue for their own selfish agenda. Hamas shows no concern for its fellow palestinians and this is evident in the videos.

Hamas / Palestinians / Arab governments are to blem for no palestinian state, and they are to blame for all the violence that has occured. Its simple for Gaza - quit firing missiles into Israel that kill Israeli citizens, quit targeting school buses - stop the attacks.

Every single time a cease fire comes up, it only lasts for a few months if that, and then Hamas goes back on their rampage. So long as Hamas keeps attacking Israel, they are going to see retaliations.

They cant even get it together enough to form a unity government, let alone effectively running a sovereign state. So long as the calls for the destruction of Israel and attacks continue, Israel is going to continue building settlements to create a buffer zone.

Ironically, again, the Palestinian people are getting screwed over because Hamas and other groups will not allow, will never allow, Isreal to exist in peace.

So again, Hamas / Arab governments / groups are to blame for the lack of a palestinian state and they are to blame for all the violenece.

Originally posted by Xcathdra
reply to post by SmedleyBurlap

 

Israel is going to continue building settlements to create a buffer zone.



So again, Hamas / Arab governments / groups are to blame for the lack of a palestinian state and they are to blame for all the violenece.

Settlements are buffer zones now ? .....

never heard that one before.

And Israel is not to blame for any violence ? ......


.... what a comedian.

reply to post by Xcathdra

Hamas has no grounds to continue to attack Israel. They do not control the west bank, and they are not part of the Fatah government in the West Bank.

Then why penalize Fatah and the West Bank for the actions of Hamas? You say repeatedly that there is no unity government and re-emphasize that Fatah and Hamas are divided. Why do you insist that Hamas' violence means that Israel should set up settlements as buffers against the West Bank? Why aren't the settlements focused in Gaza, where there is an actual need for a buffer? Why are Judea and Samaria punished for the crimes of Gaza?

reply to post by SmedleyBurlap


Well for starters all Israeli presence in gaza was removed, including all settlements. This is why I keep stating Hamas is not interested in peace. Hamas continually attacks Israel for no other reason than to kill and wipe them out.

Hamas is not the recognized government for the West Bank, and that fight is not theirs. Yet there they are, using it as an excuse to attack.

With the recent comments by Abbas as well as the PLO ambassador to the US, its obvious they dont want peace.

The argument is Israel is being attacked because they are building settlements in the West bank. Israel is saying, and has maintained this stance for some time now, that until they are recoginized by all parties, and peace treaties in place, they work under the (correct imo) assumption that a perpetual state of hostilities exist - and it does.

Israel could go all the way back to the 1948 borders, and it would not bring peace. You will have groups who will continue to attack Israel to wipe them out.

People see illeagal settlements - others see a buffer zone.

If Israel gave in to all the demands, it opens the door for the Palestinian government to have access to weapons they dont have access to now. With the goal to wipe Israel out, and you were in Israeals place, what would you do?

60+ years of unremitting hostility.....

Israel has no issues with a seperate palestinian state (and if people researched it they would see this). What Israel has concerns over is security, and rightfully so. The UN is not credible since the UN contingent in the Sinai allowed arab forces to just walk through them on their way to attack Israel.

The Palestinian Security services do not prevent attacks on Israel, and in many cases just look the other way. When palestinian security was allowed to exercise foll control, it failed. Attacks on Israel continued, and contiinue to this day.

If you want peace, then quit attacking Israel.
If you want your own state, quit attacking Israel.
If you want the West Bank settlements brought up, quit attacking Israel.
You want recognition as a Palestinian government, then recognize Israel.

Every action from Hamas / Arab government not only undermines any possibility for peace, it punishes the Palestinian people because of a the forced Israeli response.