Why Israel Cant Win

You win.

General fearmongering. Israel has established peace accords with both Jordan and Egypt and before Rabin was assasinated Israel had made major breakthroughs with both Syria and the PLO. Then Bibi came into power and years of promises and diplomacy were reversed. To say peace is impossible with the Arabs is a faulty argument as peace has been established with two Arab states even with the tides of opposition from the Arab league and domestic popular protest. Many even say that Jordan has a special relationship with Israel.

Recognition is not a legal mandate and it shouldn't be. The Peoples Republic of China does not recognize Taiwan, yet still enjoys peace and trade relations with the Republic of Taiwan. Armenia is not recognized by Pakistan, yet there is no war between these two states. Israel is in a power position and does not require recognition for peace. It simply should follow the formula of land for peace. Although it would be good to mention the PLO actually had recognized Israel and removed any violent mentions of Israel in its charter.

Now to adress your fearmongering. If hypothetically Israel pulled out of the West Bank and there was some form of Islamist coup in the West Bank and they began launching flimsy rockets into Israel, thousands of Israeli's would not die let alone millions. A few rockets would be launched and Israel would once again take control of the West Bank with their superior technologically advanced western supplied military. If Syria, Egypt and Jordan couldn't kill more than 1000 Israeli's (most who died were military personel) then I seriously doubt an inferior, non-existent Palestinian army could kill into the double digits without Israel destroying them.

Now that is a hypothetical situation. That is assuming their will be some form of Islamist coup, which I see no likely hood in.

reply to post by SpeachM1litant

General fearmongering. Israel has established peace accords with both Jordan and Egypt and before Rabin was assasinated Israel had made major breakthroughs with both Syria and the PLO. Then Bibi came into power and years of promises and diplomacy were reversed. To say peace is impossible with the Arabs is a faulty argument as peace has been established with two Arab states even with the tides of opposition from the Arab league and domestic popular protest. Many even say that Jordan has a special relationship with Israel.

There is already talk that Egypt is going to scrap the peacev treaty with Israel. More then one source has confirmed that. So dont talk as if the Eyptian peace treaty is an absolute 'success' and will never falter.

But more importantly, they havent even acknowledge a Jewish state. Wouldnt this be a problem or hindrance to the success of any peace negotiation? Isnt this obvious?

Recognition is not a legal mandate and it shouldn't be. The Peoples Republic of China does not recognize Taiwan, yet still enjoys peace and trade relations with the Republic of Taiwan

If taiwan were launching missiles into chinese cities i am positive the situation would be different.

It simply should follow the formula of land for peace. Although it would be good to mention the PLO actually had recognized Israel and removed any violent mentions of Israel in its charter.

The PLO does not acknowledge Israel as the Jewish state. JEWISH state. As in, a state for Jews. They do not acknowledge that. Therefore, they do not acknowledge Israel.

This is a major issue for Israeli and for Natanyahu - as he mentioned it in his speech. How can Israel make ammends with an enemy who has made it so clear they have no intention to live in peace with a Jewish state.

. If hypothetically Israel pulled out of the West Bank and there was some form of Islamist coup in the West Bank and they began launching flimsy rockets into Israel,

Maybe someone should launch one of those "flimsy" rockets at your house.

And why is it so suprising to you that Hamas would gain a foothold in a IDF Free Westbank??? Its predictable.

A few rockets would be launched and Israel would once again take control of the West Bank with their superior technologically advanced western supplied military

And that would be "invasion" of Palestine. In which case Israel with their superior technology would be challenged by every country in the region. Thats called war baiting. And i have a strange feeling that Palestine will do just that.

Originally posted by dontreally

This reframes what people just saw. Now, their opinions are 'formed' by the commentrary of the two guys CNN had to comment on it.

And yet, people will still say "the news if controlled by the zionists!"....

Brilliant

reply to post by dontreally


I have seen no conformation that Egypts peace treaty will be scraped anytime soon, however if Israel does not take a pro-active approach in mending its relationship with Egypt (especially since the recent accident where Egyptians were killed) then they will seriously put into jepordy the treaty. None-the-less Israel has enjoyed peace (even though it is a cold peace) with Egypt for 40 years and has has a special and peaceful relationship with Jordan for almost 20. The Rabin administration made major breakthroughs with the PLO and Syria- however Bibi's right wing policies reversed the progress made. To act as if a negotiated settlement is impossible is faulty. It is extremely difficult, yet it is not impossible and as Hamas has had an ever declining presence in the West Bank, peace between Fatah, the PLO and Israel is possible. I really don't see where you conclusion that a PA authority will launch an attack on Israel comes from. They know they would be destroyed over night, not to mention negotiations would result in security accomodations and joint security arangments between the states.

If taiwan were launching missiles into chinese cities i am positive the situation would be different.

An entirely different topic to recognition. This does not reaffirm your argument in anyway. Not to mention China was shelling Taiwan and Taiwan returning fire not too long ago

The PLO does not acknowledge Israel as the Jewish state

The PLO recognizes Israel and their sovereignty over the pre-June 1967 territories. On the other hand Israel does not recognize Palestine in any way shape or form. Aren't you a little hypocritical today?

Maybe someone should launch one of those "flimsy" rockets at your house.

Sweetm it dosen't change the fact that I systematically disproved your fearmongering claims and wether or not the rockets were to be launched at my house it wouldn't change the fact that they are both flimsy and innacurate.

And why is it so suprising to you that Hamas would gain a foothold in a IDF Free Westbank??? Its predictable.

a) There is no proof that Hamas would gain a foothold, this is merely specualtion and with joint Israeli and Palestinian co-operation aiding in removing the underlying factors of poverty due to military occupation and restrictions enacted by the IDF, Hamas would most likely be further weakened and extremism would dramatically decrease. The opposite is the case for Gaza where Israel uses force above all else.
b) The West Bank would not necassarily be IDF free as negotiation may likely result in joint security operations in the West Bank.

reply to post by SpeachM1litant

I have seen no conformation that Egypts peace treaty will be scraped anytime soon, however if Israel does not take a pro-active approach in mending its relationship with Egypt (especially since the recent accident where Egyptians were killed) then they will seriously put into jepordy the treaty.

Thats clever. So its Israels fault if the Egyptians fail to honor the peace treaty.

You must go to school for this stuff.

You seem to have no integrity.

The PLO recognizes Israel and their sovereignty over the pre-June 1967 territories. On the other hand Israel does not recognize Palestine in any way shape or form. Aren't you a little hypocritical today?

Show me where the PLO recognizes a Jewish state. They fly around this issue. Some PLO members are even on record saying they will only recognize the '48 borders.

The opposite is the case for Gaza where Israel uses force above all else.

Israel hasnt been in Gaza for 6 years. So why are they still raining thousands of missiles on the south?

A blockade on Gaza...controlling the airspace, borders and coast is still considered occupation, that is not even bringing in the fact that Gaza is part of...wait for it...Palestine...so any occupation of Palestinian land whether it be the west bank or East Jerusalem is obviously the occupation of Palestine as whole which includes Gaza, hence retaliation from Gaza would be expected. If Texas was illegally occupied by foreign forces does that mean no other state in America should be able to retaliate against the occupiers? even though Texas is part of the USA? . And something which has already been mentioned about recognizing Israel as a Jewish state.... it is mumbo jumbo and is completely irrelevant when it comes to international law and Israels obligation under it to withdraw to its legally defined borders.

reply to post by dontreally

Thats clever. So its Israels fault if the Egyptians fail to honor the peace treaty. You must go to school for this stuff. You seem to have no integrity.

Is Israel honoring the peace treaty by killing Egyptians? The blood is on the Israelis hands in this case.

Show me where the PLO recognizes a Jewish state. They fly around this issue. Some PLO members are even on record saying they will only recognize the '48 borders.

The 48 boarders are the only boarders that should be recognized. That is the land that was given to Israel all the other land is being occupied illegally. International law states acquisition of territory by military conquest is illegal.

If Israel really wants peace like they say they do then why did Benny kill the peace process?

"The most pro-peace Israelis are the Arabs; second the Sabras, the Jewish Israelis that were born there; third, the Ashkenazi of long-standing, the European Jews who came there around the time of Israel's founding," Clinton said. "The most anti-peace are the ultra-religious, who believe they're supposed to keep Judea and Samaria, and the settler groups, and what you might call the territorialists, the people who just showed up lately and they're not encumbered by the historical record." Clinton affirmed that the United States should veto the Palestinian resolution at the U.N. Security Council for member-state status, because the Israelis need security guarantees before agreeing to the creation of a Palestinian state. But the Netanyahu government has moved away from the consensus for peace, making a final status agreement more difficult, Clinton said. "That's what happened. Every American needs to know this. That's how we got to where we are," Clinton said. "The real cynics believe that the Netanyahu's government's continued call for negotiations over borders and such means that he's just not going to give up the West Bank."

Bill Clinton: Netanyahu killed the peace process

reply to post by dontreally


I never said it is Israel fault, I simply said Israel would seriously put into jepordy the peace agreement if it does not take a pro-active stance on reparing relations with Egypt following the accidental killing of Egyptian military personel by Israel.

Show me where the PLO recognizes a Jewish state.

Ok.

September 9, 1993

Yitzhak Rabin

Prime Minister of Israel

Mr. Prime Minister,

The signing of the Declaration of Principles marks a new era in the history of the Middle East. In firm conviction thereof, I would like to confirm the following PLO commitments:

The PLO recognizes the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security.

The PLO accepts United Nations Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338.

The PLO commits itself to the Middle East peace process, and to a peaceful resolution of the conflict between the two sides and declares that all outstanding issues relating to permanent status will be resolved through negotiations.

The PLO considers that the signing of the Declaration of Principles constitutes a historic event, inaugurating a new epoch of peaceful coexistence, free from violence and all other acts which endanger peace and stability. Accordingly, the PLO renounces the use of terrorism and other acts of violence and will assume responsibility over all PLO elements and personnel in order to assure their compliance, prevent violations and discipline violators

In view of the promise of a new era and the signing of the Declaration of Principles and based on Palestinian acceptance of Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338, the PLO affirms that those articles of the Palestinian Covenant which deny Israel's right to exist, and the provisions of the Covenant which are inconsistent with the commitments of this letter are now inoperative and no longer valid. Consequently, the PLO undertakes to submit to the Palestinian National Council for formal approval the necessary changes in regard to the Palestinian Covenant.

Sincerely,

Yasser Arafat

Chairman

The Palestine Liberation Organization

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...

i stumbled on this thread today. yesterday i found a number of old
books that have been kept in storage for the past 5 years. one
particular book is a 1936 edition of the 'illustrated bible
geography and altlas' by major c.r.conder.

a snippet from the introduction. please bear in mind this is from 1936.

Palestine to-day has a definite place in world politics. She is-
once more-a country with a future as well as an incomparable past. For this the Great War (1914-1918)
is largely responsible. During the struggle Palestine became an important military base,whence her
Turkish rulers threatened the Suez Canal and Egypt. The British, under General Allenby, carried out
a series of operations which resulted in the capture of Jerusalem and the ultimate conquest of
Palestine,followed by a period of military occupation during which the devastated country was once
more set on the high road to recovery.
Meanwhile an important point in British policy had been formulated in the Balfour Declaration of November,
1917 (afterwards incorporated in the Treaty of Sevres), which favoured the establishment in Palestine of
a national home for the Jewish people,without prejudice to the rights of other races in Palestine or the
status of Jews in other countries. When later,under a mandate granted to Britain by the League of Nations,
a civil administration was set up, the Balfour Declaration became part of its policy, maintained in spite
of serious rioting among mutually hostile Arabs and Jews.
The Jewish settlements,numbering about 130, are in Judea,Samaria,Upper and Lower Galilee,and the Jewish
community is, within certain limits,self-governing. the direct agent in the establishment of the Jewish
national home is the Jewish Agency, recognised by the British and the local governments.

The larger part of Palestine's population of 1,200,000 is composed of Moslems. Jews number about
350,000 and Christians about 100,000. Jerusalem, a holy city to the Jews,Moslems and Christians alike,
has a population of about 90,000. end of snippet.


Fakedirt Declaration for the Cessation of Hostilities between Warring Parties.

It has come to my attention that the handbags at dawn policy is clearly unsustainable.
It has been noted that factions within both sides have no intention of sharing
popcorn,swings,roundabouts and the choo-choo train. Again, an unsustainable situation.
Furthermore, the lack of sharing of the beach and water wings has raised further questions.
The indiscriminate use of pea-shooters, hot pop tarts and high velocity oranges will no
longer be tolerated.
Notice has been served on all classes. A period of sixty days will be allocated for both
parties to vet their clowns and audit the balloon stockpiles (pending a risk assessment and
the procurement of nbc suits for the auditors). Further disruption will result in the removal
of the tree house,sand pit and the mr whippy machine. Failure of compliance within this time period
will also result in a further loss of priveliges, the confiscation of all sweets and lastly and by no means
the least,the eviction of all pupils,buildings and landmarks for the creation of the worlds biggest car park.
pricing scales to be announced.

regards fakedirt.