Iran and YOU agree on Something! Hey Conservatives and Rick Perry - Start Clapping

reply to post by curious7


How about in Britain they actually sentence people for their crimes? I noticed the infamous "Baby P" rapist is out strolling around now - what two years later?

CJ

Originally posted by ColoradoJens
reply to post by DaddyBare

 

The thread is about appying the same "civilized" justice methods that our supposed enemies do. Killing someone will not take back any crime comitted and it doesn't seem to be a deterent. Obviously people continue to commit henious crimes regardless.

CJ

Not the ones who get planted. They seem to lose all interest in committing further depredations.

If they still have an interest, they seem not to be very active with it.

reply to post by ColoradoJens

The thread is about appying the same "civilized" justice methods that our supposed enemies do. Killing someone will not take back any crime comitted and it doesn't seem to be a deterent. Obviously people continue to commit henious crimes regardless.

I'm going to take a slightly different angle here. Not to say that I am polar opposite you on the Death Penalty. I guess it is the way that you are trying to using an argument of analogy--comparison of US/Texas/Perry with Iran vis-a-vis the Death Penalty.

You simply cannot make a valid comparison between the US/Texas and Iran. The US, before it invaded its native people, has been in existance for what? Maybe 400 years or so? The Iranians--via Persia, on the other hand, has thousands of years of culture, history, and precedent.

So, I am asking you to review 1) your comparison and 2) your quote:

Obviously people continue to commit henious crimes regardless

Pull up some historical data on Iran and prove that this statement is true or false about Iran (or at least as far back as you can go).

I guarantee the US track record of number of capital punishment deaths (per capita over times) pales in comparison with Iran and some of the other countries mentioned.

At least in the context you have presented, give the US/Texas, etc. a break. We are still a relative "young" nation as hard as that it is to believe....Perhaps in thousands of years things will look optimistically different

reply to post by ColoradoJens


Troy Davis' body may have been killed but he will live on when the Lord calls up those still alive in Him and the dead will rise first. Him wearing that cross around his neck did not go unnoticed by me, it's statement was loud and clear.

Do not be outraged by his execution, they did Troy a favor, now all he has to do is sleep until Jesus Christ returns and i know that as they hit the plunger on the injector he was thinking of the Lord. God bless him and keep him safe until it is time when all the brothers and sisters in Christ can be together.

When the state kills us to terrorize into obeying the law - - that's justice! Only foreigners can be terrorists!

reply to post by nenothtu


Yes, the few who get killed cannot commit more crimes.

I would argue as the most incarcerated population in the world, the criminals in the US don't seem to think about it prior to commiting their acts. I wonder if there is any evidence where a criminal said in an interview after a murder that the Death Penalty was on their minds while committing their crimes? Regardless, it didn't stop them.

CJ

reply to post by ColoradoJens


Nope, it doesn't stop them before the fact, but it sure enough puts the brakes on them afterwards. I can't see the death penalty as being any sort of "deterrent" on the more criminally minded, and think that arguing it to be a deterrence is misguided. Some people are just born junkyard dog mean, and not much will stop them short of being planted.

It's possible that there is some sort of deterrent effect on some few borderline cases, and of course we wouldn't hear of them saying "gee, the death penalty was on my mind as I twitched the trigger" in an after action interview, since the deterrence would have prevented the need for an after action interview, but that's purely speculative, and would apply to a very few cases in any case.

Of course in the case of most people, the normal ones, the only deterrence necessary is their own conscience. Those aren't the ones we need to worry about any how. They are self-regulating.

My argument doesn't rest on a deterrence factor for prevention to keep the general populace "in line". There are just some bad events that can't be prevented. It rest more on the notion that once you drop 'em in the hole and throw dirt on their face, the only further trouble they can be to the rest of us is remembering to get some gas for the mower to keep their new home pretty.

It's not about revenge or vengeance, either. sure, there are a couple cases where I had blood in my eye and revenge on my mind, but I recused myself from the hunt in those cases. Letting your judgement get clouded like that can lead to stupid mistakes that get YOU killed, rather than the desired result. If you can't stay chilly dealing with certain folks, it's best to let someone else handle them.

Originally posted by LondonerBLV

Originally posted by patternfinder
i think the death penalty crowd are the ones that are more susceptible to hating others...that's why it's so easy for the media to inculcate hate for another country or group of people into these people's minds.....you can take the people out of nature, but you can't take nature out of people.......

What a load of hippy bullcrap. I dont hate anyone. I just don't want scumbags on the street.

Why Is ATS full of Liberal idiots?

Same reason it is also full of Conservative idiots.

To be fair, I am left leaning. I would not call myself a liberal. I have views that fall on both sides of the political spectrum...

To be fair, I know plenty of liberals and plenty of conservatives that support the death penalty.

To be fair, I know of plenty of liberals and plenty of conservatives that oppose the death penalty.

Do I support it? Honestly? I am on the fence. I don't want scum bags on the streets either... But at the same time, is that not what prison is for?

I don't know. Just my humble thought...

Does that make me an idiot? Oh well.

Originally posted by gimme_some_truth

Do I support it? Honestly? I am on the fence. I don't want scum bags on the streets either... But at the same time, is that not what prison is for?

There have been known to have been escapes from prison, but mighty few escapes from a grave. If someone has been naughty enough to get a life sentence, it's better to just off them and be done with it, IMO. No escapes, less upkeep, and the general idea is to never allow them amongst decent folks in either case - death or life in prison. Personally, I would prefer death to life in a cage anyhow, but that's just me, and I'm not planning on murdering anyone in the near future anyhow. To me, doing me in would be more humane that caging me for life.

Does that make me an idiot? Oh well.

I can't imagine why it would. Your opinion is as valid as any other, as opinions go. it takes all kinds to make the world go 'round.

reply to post by nenothtu

My argument doesn't rest on a deterrence factor for prevention to keep the general populace "in line". There are just some bad events that can't be prevented. It rest more on the notion that once you drop 'em in the hole and throw dirt on their face, the only further trouble they can be to the rest of us is remembering to get some gas for the mower to keep their new home pretty.

Except in the cases of innocent people being dropped in a hole and buried...once they are there, aint no new evidence going to bring them out...and then what? Oh well, I'm just on the sidelines here - it wasn't me...how crazy would you think the death penalty if god forbid you found yourself facing it as an innocent man?

CJ

Originally posted by ColoradoJens
reply to post by nenothtu

 

Except in the cases of innocent people being dropped in a hole and buried...once they are there, aint no new evidence going to bring them out...and then what?

That's a fact. With modern developments, those sorts of cases should get a lot less frequent now. I personally believe that the DA who prosecuted the case should be held liable for a murder charge if they are later determined to have been innocent, the same charge they were tried for, and the same penalty. The objective of a court trial is to arrive at truth with a finding of fact, and if that doesn't happen, it's usually due to judicial misconduct on the part of an over-zealous prosecutor trying to make a name for himself regardless of the cost in human terms.

You may be amazed - or perhaps not - at the amount of judicial misconduct that occurs on the part of DA's who place the "score" of a conviction above an arrival at "truth". They should be held liable for that, at the same penalty their misconduct meted out. that would put a stop to a lot of that foolishness.

I personally believe that this latest case may have been an extreme case of that, with several players playing the part of Pilate and "washing their hands of the matter" - especially in light of the admissions by several of the witnesses that they lied because of LE coersion to obtain a conviction. That's not "justice", not by a long stretch. It should have at the very least merited a review and re-trial with subpoenas to those same witnesses.

Oh well, I'm just on the sidelines here - it wasn't me...how crazy would you think the death penalty if god forbid you found yourself facing it as an innocent man?

CJ

As I said above, I would prefer death to life in a cage, regardless of guilt or innocence. If I'm going to be caged for life, whether as a result of judicial misconduct or not, blot me out. I'm old enough to realized that most of the judiciary are above the law, and the chance of my case being overturned in light of that is vanishingly small. Unless and until the judiciary are held liable for misconduct to the same degree as they are meting out, do me in.

What is the acceptable rate of innocents put to death "by a jury of their peers"? 1? 10? 100? 1000?
How do you determine/justify this? By what moral compass?

If you believe that any number is acceptable you are committing murder by allowing it.
One innocent put to death is a crime against humanity. But we don't like nations that commit crimes against humanity....right?

How many of the list of countries that have executions do you currently consider to be "civilized nations"?

I bet it's a short list with the US being number one.
Is that really what you believe? Really?

Look at the list of nations without executions. How many of those do you consider to be "civilized"?
I'll wager it's a longer list.

Civilized is determined by how a nation treats its subjects. The US routinely kills them. Regardless of their crimes, the state is killing them. What's the number of deaths you would deem acceptable of your fellow citizens? 1000? 1000000?

Would you, honestly, shake your head in disbelief if you read of a nation who killed 1000000 of its own? Yet you can justify it in your own country?

Now look at the "justice system" of each of these nations (from both lists). Do they really have "JUSTICE" systems, or merely a "LEGAL" system, by which whomever has the best lawyer wins?
Really? You honestly think the US has a "JUSTICE" system rather than a "LEGAL" system?
Honestly? Do you think OJ did it? Hmmmm.....????

Sleep well, my friend. I'm sure you'll find comfort somewhere.
Perhaps you have a book somewhere that says murder is good/bad (depending on which chapter you're reading).
I'm sure it will help.

/sarcasm. Sorry, but this makes my blood boil.

reply to post by ColoradoJens


Upon further reflection, I've decided to let you know that twice I've faced prison on wrongful charges. Not the death penalty, but prison time none the less. In both cases, justice was done more or less - at least justice was done with respect to me - but just barely. In one, the investigator had common sense, and that's where it ended. In the other, it was only because I was bullheaded enough not to confess to something I didn't do. The investigator in that case interviewed me for hours on end, trying to browbeat a confession out of me. when I'd had enough of that, and knowing the interview was being taped since they were salivating for a confession, I said "look, I've told you who the ONLY person who could even possibly have done it is, and you've no interest in investigating him. DO YOU REALLY WANT ME TO CONFESS TO SOMETHING I DIDN'T DO?"

Well, that backed him off pretty quick, and as he was drawing a breath for another assault on me, I said "Aiight. You said you got a good set of fingerprints. FINGERPRINT ME GODDAMIT, and let's get this show on the road!"

Not much else he could do then. As we were walking to the processing area so he could fingerprint me, I said "I expect an apology directly from YOU when these prints come back negative." Of course I never heard from him again, for any reason.

Originally posted by Badgered1
What is the acceptable rate of innocents put to death "by a jury of their peers"? 1? 10? 100? 1000?
How do you determine/justify this? By what moral compass?

Are you tawkin' tuh ME?

None. Zero. No innocent deaths are acceptable. A responsible party should be held accountable for them.

How many of the list of countries that have executions do you currently consider to be "civilized nations"?

I bet it's a short list with the US being number one.
Is that really what you believe? Really?

None. Zero. How's that for a short list? A "civilized" nation would have no need for punishments, incarceration, or a death penalty. A "civilized" nation would be composed of civilized citizens. There are none currently in existence on this planet.

Look at the list of nations without executions. How many of those do you consider to be "civilized"?
I'll wager it's a longer list.

Nope. Another short list. None. Zero. Zilch. there are no civilized nations on this planet currently. if there were, they would have no need of a judicial system at all, whether a "legal system" or a "justice system".

Civilized is determined by how a nation treats its subjects.

Nope. "Civilized" is determined by how citizens treat each other. What good is "civilization" if only a government possesses it? NO nation that still has "subjects" can EVER be civilized. Subjugation is itself uncivilized. The only possibility is a nation that has citizens rather than subjects, and again none of those have yet reached a stage approaching "civilization" on this planet.

Do you think OJ did it? Hmmmm.....????

No. I do not believe O.J. was guilty.

Sleep well, my friend. I'm sure you'll find comfort somewhere.

I do. Trust me, I do.

Perhaps you have a book somewhere that says murder is good/bad (depending on which chapter you're reading).
I'm sure it will help.

If I have to let a book do my thinking for me, then obviously there is a flaw in me, and you're better off killing me off and just talking to the book.

Murder IS bad, regardless of what a book says. Not all killings, however, qualify as "murder". "Murder" ia an unjustifiable homicide. "Homicide" is the killing of one human by another. Animals, for example, can't be "murdered" since they are not human, nor can they be guilty of murder. Some homicides are thoroughly justifiable.

Not all killings qualify as "murder".

Originally posted by neo96
the death penality should be abolished

alright just by the state and all those "good people running around offing others"

get a lifetime all expenses paid vacation on the taxpayer dime and all it takes to get their is

what? murder

if killing people who murder prevents murder, then why are people still murdering people in america?

guess what? it is not working. all thats happening is people are killing people, so the state does what it says is wrong in the first place and kills people to prevent people from killing people, who still continue to kill people anyway.

i heard a parent once whilst out shopping, say to a kid, "don't you %^*£"ing swear at me" i bet that told him and was a good example to others around at the time as well.

reply to post by LondonerBLV


Oh.. b.s. it's all the same.
It's not the method people are horrified of. It's the fact they are going to die.
Whether you are being stoned or injected you aren't thinking "man this hurts" you are thinking I'm going to die.
Actually I would probably rather it be a fight or flight death than a slow thinking about the fact I'm strapped down and dying death.

reply to post by nenothtu


nenothtu - thank you for your personal story - I have a similar one as yours - my life could have been totally screwed, instead of just screwed at the time...I was angry the courts were so against me and I was guilty until proven innocent. I did thank God when the DA dropped everything. I have doubts mistakes won't still happen. Of course, my opinion.

CJ

reply to post by nenothtu


Not striking out personally, merely musing based on your post. Please don't think this was an attack!
Sorry if I gave that impression.

Originally posted by ColoradoJens
reply to post by DaddyBare

 

The thread is about appying the same "civilized" justice methods that our supposed enemies do. Killing someone will not take back any crime comitted and it doesn't seem to be a deterent. Obviously people continue to commit henious crimes regardless.

CJ

Civilized and Justice and two very different things....
Polite civilized society is that because the group has established rules of order those rules are to be obeyed failure to do so results in punishment... that is where justice comes into play...

still in any civilized society there are those who threaten the very fabric of civilization... people who are such a danger they must be removed from polite society...

Andrew Urdiales


College student Robbin Brandley was found dead, stabbed 41 times. Though police had many theories about the murderer's identity, it would take 11 years and the capture of a serial killer to unravel the mystery of her violent death.






Angelo Buono and Kenneth Bianchi, the Hillside Stranglers


It takes more than a few homicides to get the attention of the people in a city the size of Los Angeles. Murders are a daily occurrence. So when three women living hi-risk lifestyles were found strangled and naked on hillsides very few people lost sleep over it. Only a couple sharp homicide detectives became nervous that this was just the beginning. Everything changed when five "nice girls" were abducted from their middle-class neighborhoods.

Two psychopathic cousins made torture into an unspeakable art form as they experimented on their young victims, giving new meaning to the concept of "Evil."




Anthony Sowell: The Cleveland Strangler


At least 11 bodies have been removed from accused serial killer Sowell's house, but questions still remain: Are there more victims, and how could police have waited so long to act?




Arohn Kee


Here is a story that tells you why DNA evidence is the greatest advance in crime and punishment since the invention of the jury. Three East Harlem teenage girls' murder-rapes defy experienced NYPD detectives. The killer moves their bodies from the crime scenes to dump sites in a shopping-cart. After many years, a comparison of DNA taken from serial rapist Arohn Kee is matched against semen found in all three victims. DNA technology also matches Kee's semen in another rape where an innocent man was charged.




The Baseline Killer


This mysterious assailant, at one point suspected of killing as many as 23 people, prowled the area along Baseline Road in Phoenix. He is now safely behind bars...or is he?




The Beauty Queen Killer


Beautiful young women suddenly vanish and it's clear that a sadistic killer is on the loose in Florida.




Bela Kiss


Kiss was a rather handsome man with blond hair and remarkable, vibrant blue eyes. Not only had Kiss taught himself his trade as a tinsmith, but he was a voracious reader and was highly conversant on art, literature and history. He struck his fellow villagers as an amiable and hard-working fellow with a penchant for throwing parties at a local hotel. Known as a generous person, everybody liked him and he was considered by the women of the town to be its most eligible bachelor.

His town had a limited choice of female companions, so Kiss kept an apartment in Budapest and took out advertisements in newspapers there.

Over the years a steady stream of lovelies from Budapest spent short periods of time at Kiss's home in Cinkota, but no one in the town was introduced to these young women who came and went so quickly.

Many of the facts about Bela Kiss will never be known, except that he murdered 24 of the women who came to see him, and that he has to a large extent passed into myth and had grown into a figure larger than life.




Bible John


That's what they called the tall, very handsome well-dressed young man, who kept reciting passages from the scriptures. He was the last person seen with a three young murder victims, none of them sexually assaulted, but oddly all three were menstruating at the time of their death. DNA has brought forward new leads in this strange unsolved case.




Bobby Joe Long


Shockingly brutal sexual predator terrorizes the Tampa, Florida area, but concerted local and federal investigation brings the crime spree to an end.




Britain's Bizarre 'Hair-in-Hand' Murder Case


The brutal 2002 murder of Heather Barnett stymied British police for eight years, until a morbid discovery in a 15th century Italian church gave them the break they needed.

reply to post by DaddyBare


DaddyBare - you have a personal experience that is unfathomable. In your pain, would you not be horrified to learn that the person accused of a crime against you was really innocent? What about that persons family?

Edit to add: Murderers are taken out of society. They go to prison.

CJ