It is time for the moderates to stop being apathetic!

The problem with America today is the moderates are being drowned out. When I refer to moderates, I am not just referring to people who are dead on center. I am also talking about people who might be a few steps left, right, up, or down from center.

It is okay to be a liberal or a Democrat who thinks capitalism and private property rights are on balance good things. It is okay to be a Republican or conservative who thinks that global warming is a problem that requires a sensible solution. It is okay to be a liberal who questions whether Obama and his gang are doing enough to get the economy going. It is okay to be a conservative who thinks raising taxes might be a viable option in certain circumstances.

Speak up if you are in the middle and sick of politics!

reply to post by hotpinkurinalmint


no its not ok to be a conservative who believes in raising taxes is ok when the government has time and time agian

proven itself to be irresponsible with the monies it already collect and to condone propping up those same habits just so they can blow more money is irresponsible on our parts.

and if thats what it means to be a moderate i want no part

I'm sick of politicians who don't propose any serious spending cuts and want to argue about increasing taxes.

Our government could confiscate all the money of all the rich people in this country and that would still not solve the debt problem. Our government is spending too much and not getting the economy to grow. Obviously they don't know how to get the economy growing. It's not by increasing regulations and hiring more czars to control things. It's not by spending $200,000 per $50,000 job or even more. Every dollar our government borrows decreases economic output now I believe. Then our government didn't even prosecute those who were a big part of the whole mortgage collapse in the US. All those people selling homes and signing papers without any proof of income or without any decent process to check proof of income, when so many knew the people buying the homes didn't have enough income, should go to jail or face severe fines. I believe I heard even some drug dealers stopped dealing drugs because there was more money to be made in this illegal scheme that cost many a lot. Yet where are all the prosecutions? No one went to jail. I don't even recall a single trial.

Our government will not get the economy to grow by increasing costs to the average American either. Passing along higher costs to oil and gas companies makes them raise their gas prices, it happened where I live at by the tune of 10 cents a gallon overnight after Obama suggested it. Listening to all those crying about not having health insurance does no good to the vast majority in this country when costs do not go down but instead go up for everyone. My health insurance premiums went up over 20 to 30 percent since Obama's health care plan. There is likely going to be additional costs and tax increases starting in the year 2014 that will cost the average American a lot I believe. Obama and congress are rich and don't seem to realize any cost increase on a monthly basis really hurts a lot of average income people. All of that was to provide health insurance for an extra 10 million people but I've seen no benefits and only see unknown higher costs. Everything I see our current politicians doing makes me think they haven't a clue about how to get this economy going.

Maybe it is time for the fundamentalists to stop being so dogmatic. Maybe it is time for the extremist to stop being so over zealous. While moderation is not necessarily equated with apathy, perhaps moderates who think that global warming is a serious issue, but also think - moderately so - that government should be restrained, think so because their own apathy has led them to not really research the issues. Sure, we can excuse ourselves and declare that it is not expedient to learn all their is to learn in order to make an informed decision, and pretend it isn't out of apathy, but to what end?

In the lexicon of politics, the term moderate is as meaningless as is liberal, conservative, left or right. It is just a term, and cannot reflect a persons politics any better than any other label can. It matters not what label would be put upon you, whether you lean left, or lean right, either you stand for freedom, or you do not. There is no moderate stance on freedom. It's not as if one can be all for some rights, and dead set against other rights, and call that moderate freedom. Such a state is better described as moderate tyranny, but tyranny knows no moderation either.

If you stand for freedom, it does not matter on what issue, and it does not matter where, but at some point you will have to take a stand. Not a moderate stance, but a strong stance in an effort to defend freedom. Moderate stands only yield moderate results. As such, in regards to freedom, moderates may as well be apathetic.

reply to post by neo96


Fine Mr. Conservative. I am all for spending cuts. Let us cut the biggest drains on our budget, the military, medicare, and social security.

The problem with many conservatives is that they somehow think spending money on military, medicare, and social security does not really count as government spending. I have never been able to figure this one out.

reply to post by hotpinkurinalmint


You bring up a very real issue. The issue however is, I believe, more social than political.

It won't take you long to see examples of what happens in political dialog when people of one 'side' begin to vocalize the possibility that a more centrist solution may be preferable to ideological gridlock.

They are most frequently chided and ridiculed by the most vocal and 'dyed in the wool' partisans, who, until the utterance was made, were on the same 'side' as their party member. Where do you think the term "RINO" (Republican in name only) came from? It came from Republicans who saw any sign of a compromise or any concession away from the tenets, as defeatist.

We see the same phenomenon in religious groups, and more. Imagine the horror of some in the Jewish Community as one or another Jew considered actually considering admitting that he or she thought Jesus was mistreated and was 'railroaded' in no small part by the Jewish leaders into being tried as an an enemy of the Roman state. I think they made up a term for them too... "self-hating Jews"(?) Imagine the shellacking someone might take if they admitted among his particular group of die-hard sports fans that their team just wasn't good enough to win the championship ... I wouldn't be surprised if in some cases, something like that would come to blows.

It's about dissent within the group. People always want to kill dissent.

Political partisanship is no different.

In the end, it's usually about vain and foolish pride.

reply to post by hotpinkurinalmint


what is the difference between defense spending and social security,medicare
and medicaid?

1. the us military has 1 function to enusre peace in the streets of this coun
try without that peace people would not be able to go to work live in their
homes do anything that people would call living.

2. the us government has the moral obligation to enusre that those men and wom
en have the best systems and technology we can give them because if we dont
they die and anyone with an ounce of morality doesnt cheap out on systems boug
ht at walmart prices.

3. the simple fact defense corporations build those systems but those compone
ents are also made by the civilian sector who employ millions of people they
both in turn create wealth and that same wealth is used to do what?

4. pay people by job creation and that in turns means wealth creation which me
ans tax revenue to the government who collects that wealth and in turns pays
for those social programs.

5 may not be that clear for some but people need to take off the tunnel vision
glasses and look at the larger picture.

6 all total and this is a ball park figure there are over 100 million people
in this country whose sole means of survival is the us government.

to make it perfectly clear i do feel that defense needs a dire reformation

seriously 900 bases? hell no we dont my points of contention is that peopel
are so blinded by political ideology they never once think of the ramification
s of what that action will bring to millions of americans.


this country has a revenue problem it has a tax problem because government has

grown to the point where it is now "TOO BIG TO FAIL" and the reason it is fail
ing well pick one whatever you want.

but im telling you this rasing taxes will never fix anything and the biggest drain to this country are those 100 million on social security and medicare and medicaid.

trillions of job and wealth destruction

noone has to agree with that assesment everyones free to disagree but they sure better think about the effect of what they want to accomplish.

its not about the people its about this nations survival and for this nation to survive read my signature and no im not saying throw people under the bus but when people say cut defense thats what they are doing they never look at the magnitude of those actions.

reply to post by orionthehunter


My premiiums went up too after obamacare passed. The first time was immediately after, then after I negotiated a higher deductible with them, a few months later they just increased another 100 bucks a month.

Originally posted by hotpinkurinalmint
reply to post by neo96

 

Fine Mr. Conservative. I am all for spending cuts. Let us cut the biggest drains on our budget, the military, medicare, and social security.

The problem with many conservatives is that they somehow think spending money on military, medicare, and social security does not really count as government spending. I have never been able to figure this one out.

We could definitely cut a lot of spending by stopping all these endless wars. I'm all for that. I would point out that defense is the one thing our govt is authorized by the Constitution to take care of, I just think that it's overkill at the moment. I would keep our reserves up adequately while cutting out needless war.

When you sit on a fence (moderates) all you'll get are splinters in your butt.

I agree, though, with the apathy, the "it doesn't matter" crowd needs to get involved, there are sides. One side wants a larger government the other wants smaller government.

Both sides have D's and R's after their names. That's why focus on the individual is so important.

Is it? Is it time now?

Moderates, more than anyone, have been so casual about things for so long that there really isn't much to be moderate about anymore. Moderates, to me, are people who either don't know enough or don't care enough to actually read or form opinions on topics that can pass even cursory inspection or trial.

There is a big difference between a "moderate" and a "reasonable person". Not that they don't coincide sometimes, but it certainly doesn't guarantee that.

I've found that the moderates that do actually care and who are actually involved are really just misclassified third party people.

Lastly, the war is not with the government or TPTB, it's with the moderates and the uncaring/unknowing population and it's a war that will never end or get much better. Even when you can start mass movements, they end badly to very badly as often as not, so I don't hold out a lot of hope.

Peace
KJ

Originally posted by beezzer
When you sit on a fence (moderates) all you'll get are splinters in your butt.

I agree, though, with the apathy, the "it doesn't matter" crowd needs to get involved, there are sides. One side wants a larger government the other wants smaller government.

Both sides have D's and R's after their names. That's why focus on the individual is so important.

Don't forget all those who have been posting lately that "they're all the same" and "the two party system is a sham", etc.

I think these people are just too lazy to do what it takes to make intelligent choices, so they are copping out.

Originally posted by centurion1211

Originally posted by beezzer
When you sit on a fence (moderates) all you'll get are splinters in your butt.

I agree, though, with the apathy, the "it doesn't matter" crowd needs to get involved, there are sides. One side wants a larger government the other wants smaller government.

Both sides have D's and R's after their names. That's why focus on the individual is so important.

Don't forget all those who have been posting lately that "they're all the same" and "the two party system is a sham", etc.

I think these people are just too lazy to do what it takes to make intelligent choices, so they are copping out.

You have made a good point....people love to bitch but seldom do anything about it....they are apathetic and feel they cannot effect change. The two parties are a sham and the ONLY thing different between a Republican and a Democrat in office is....WHO THEY FUNNEL THE MONEY TOO!

Still...this is all our fault because we allowed it to get this way. What is REALLY sickening is the way both parties manipulate the STUPID by way of using FLASH POINT ISSUES....such as....Obortion is Killing a Baby...for the Idiot Minions on the Right....and....WE MUST KEEP SPENDING BILLIONS ON EDUCATION....even if the system doesn't work because....THINK OF OUR CHILDREN!....for the IDIOT MINIONS on the LEFT.

Being a MODERATE is much better for me thank you. Split Infinity

Originally posted by hotpinkurinalmint
The problem with America today is the moderates are being drowned out. When I refer to moderates, I am not just referring to people who are dead on center. I am also talking about people who might be a few steps left, right, up, or down from center.

It is okay to be a liberal or a Democrat who thinks capitalism and private property rights are on balance good things. It is okay to be a Republican or conservative who thinks that global warming is a problem that requires a sensible solution. It is okay to be a liberal who questions whether Obama and his gang are doing enough to get the economy going. It is okay to be a conservative who thinks raising taxes might be a viable option in certain circumstances.

Speak up if you are in the middle and sick of politics!

Moderates are not apathetic, atleast not so far as I can see it. I know a fair number of Democrats and the vast majority of them are fairly moderate. Most believe that abortion should be a states issue, I know of many who believe that defense should not be cut in anyway, many are unhappy with Obama believe you me.

As for moderates on the rightwing, they're been run out in my opinion. The fact that Romney is being considered anything close to a moderate among GOP constituents is a complete joke in my opinion and a demonstration of this. Aside from his healthcare bill that mirrored Obama's (that he has virtually disowned) there is nothing else moderate about him to me and other liberals. Moderates are being driven out from the GOP. As for moderates in the Democratic party, how far did Obama's public option get within his own party in 2009? Not very far.

Originally posted by beezzer
When you sit on a fence (moderates) all you'll get are splinters in your butt.

I agree, though, with the apathy, the "it doesn't matter" crowd needs to get involved, there are sides. One side wants a larger government the other wants smaller government.

Both sides have D's and R's after their names. That's why focus on the individual is so important.

I'm certainly no extremist or fundamentalist despite what some may think, but why would any one who considers themselves a moderate want to get drawn into the daily left vs right battles that we see here on ATS? It's almost like being forced into picking a side and defending it dogmatically. Neither side willing to give an inch and both sides holding a confirmation bias that is deeply ingrained.

You assume that because I am on the left that I want larger government, which is not necessarily true. For me I have always viewed the state/government as just another tool of the capitalist class. I only need to look at my current government for proof. So I want a government that represents the citizens not the upper echelons of society. A government that does not get involved in Big Business, that doesn't go to war to protect corporate interests, but also I believe a good government can deliver quality public services paid for by taxation.

reply to post by hotpinkurinalmint


Amazingly few values have been left us by those who walked the middle of the road.
-Bradford Brown

reply to post by centurion1211


But like here in the UK all the parties have become the same. They may deliver their message using different language , but the results of their policies are pretty much the same. Maybe it's different for you guys in the states, but in the UK, all the parties have targeted the middle ground/middle England and in the process have moved away from their traditional voting support. what this has led to is 3 parties who are pretty indistinguishable from one another. All our politicians are educated at the same schools and universities, they all come from the Middle or upper class's. Never before in Britains history has the political class been so out of touch with the electorate.