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Can you prove evolution wrong

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posted on Jul, 22 2012 @ 11:35 PM

I don't think you noticed the sarcasm regarding "luminaught".. As in, not enlightened. And clearly no intellectual argument have you put forth yet. :/

Intellectual arguments have been ignored and thrown to the wind hundreds of pages ago.
This thread is all about intellectual dishonesty, logical fallacies and, uhm... sarcasm

Have fun.

posted on Jul, 23 2012 @ 12:13 AM

I'm not a religous kind of guy but I think we are a modified creature, not an evolved thing. I don't understand why humans have some DNA which is not shared by any other creature.

This tells me right here that you don't know much about what DNA is, much about biology, or anything to do with evolution.. To make that statement is just admitting your ignorance of the fields in question.

Please give an example of a trans species, not just a claim of incrementalism,

Dolphins, whales, manatees have a very good fossil record.. And again, there is no required need of the fossil record to prove evolutionary theory.

unless you can demonstrate this most basic of evidence I'm afraid I'll have to keep thinking Darwin wasn't exactly right, nor are creationists, We are far too mysterious for that.

You mean something like Atavism? You do know google is your friend right?

I do hold a degree in Cultural Anthopology, but I'm not an expert on the way species developed.

The first part I doubt, but you being no expert on this subject is abundantly clear.

Just one cat with wings would work just dandy, or even an ape driving a Mercedes and wearing a Rolex, oh I know, a single celled creature whose turgor pressure endurance has changed, that would be pretty easy, just one cell in all of time.

You're definitely a creationist pretending not to be.. And you clearly don't understand how evolution works. But hey, you're definitely good at appealing ignorance..

I do know that DNA is sometimes damaged, but that isn't evolution,

Wrong! always has errors in reproduction.. And sorry, that is evolution..

that is a birth defect, which would be selected out.

You're argument here makes no coherent sense. And at best you have just deposited an oxymoron.

what is it 223 gene pairs we do not share with any other creature?

The Great Apes, and others. And that other creatures have genes too. You can even get a plant animal like the green sea slug that can steel genes in horizontal gene transfers to where it can produce its own chlorophyll and photosynthesize..Again evolution!

Mutants are not evolution, mutants are damaged instruction sets.

Incorrect.. Another ignorant post... It would be like calling a mutated flower that becomes a new species as damaged.. Good to see your ignorance is shining like a super giant star here. Sorry, not all mutations are "bad".

BTW please try to give a true example of a trans species fossil, just one okay?

I can go on.. But it's utterly laughable to claim trans fossils don't exist. And at best, your argument entirely relies on an appeal to ignorance, or that which we call the GOD of the Gaps argument.
edit on 23-7-2012 by TheJackelantern because: (no reason given)

posted on Jul, 23 2012 @ 12:34 AM
Hell, lets just outline a few things here:

Part 1

Evolution (also known as biological or organic evolution) is the change over time in one or more inheritedtraits found in inter-breeding populations of organisms. Inherited traits are particular distinguishing characteristics, including anatomical, biochemical orbehavioural characteristics, that result from gene–environment interactions. Evolution may occur when there is variation of inherited traits within a population. The major sources of such variation are mutation,genetic recombination andgene flow. This process has produced all the diversity of living organisms.

Twitching lizards are an example of evolution. However, to better understand other aspects of evolution, you can read the following:


Here is the definition of Micro Evolution:

Microevolution is a change in gene frequency within a population over time. This change is due to four different processes: mutation, selection (natural and artificial), gene flow and genetic drift.

Population genetics is the branch of biology that provides the mathematical structure for the study of the process of microevolution. Ecological genetics concerns itself with observing microevolution in the wild. Typically, observable instances of evolution are examples of microevolution; for example, bacterial strains that have antibiotic resistance.


Here is the definition of Macro Evolution:

Macroevolution is evolution on a scale of separated gene pools.[1] Macroevolutionary studies focus on change that occurs at or above the level of species, in contrast with microevolution,[2] which refers to smaller evolutionary changes (typically described as changes in allele frequencies) within a species or population.


Here is the definition of speciation:

Speciation is the evolutionary process by which new biological species arise. The biologist Orator F. Cook seems to have been the first to coin the term 'speciation' for the splitting of lineages or 'cladogenesis,' as opposed to 'anagenesis' or 'phyletic evolution' occurring within lineages. Whether genetic drift is a minor or major contributor to speciation is the subject matter of much ongoing discussion.

There are four geographic modes of speciation in nature, based on the extent to which speciating populations are geographically isolated from one another: allopatric, peripatric, parapatric, and sympatric. Speciation may also be induced artificially, through [url=]animal husbandry or laboratory experiments. Observed examples of each kind of speciation are provided throughout.

Example difference between micro and macro evolution:

posted on Jul, 23 2012 @ 12:40 AM
Part 2

Life is Electromagnetic phenomenon:

And how about more specific papers on electromagnetism and life:

Electromagnetism is responsible for practically all the phenomena encountered in daily life, with the exception of gravity. Ordinary matter takes its form as a result of intermolecular forces between individual molecules in matter. Electromagnetism is also the force which holds electrons and protons together inside atoms, which are the building blocks of molecules. This governs the processes involved in chemistry, which arise from interactions between the electrons inside and between atoms.

In short, you can't have a living organism without the electromagnetic force to which is one of the prime drivers to self-organizing molecules. And we can look into Organic compounds vs inorganic compounds:

scientists have discovered that simple peptides can organize into bi-layer membranes. The finding suggests a “missing link” between the pre-biotic Earth’s chemical inventory and the organizational scaffolding essential to life.

“This is a boon to our understanding of large, structural assemblies of molecules,” says Emory Chemistry Chair David Lynn, who helped lead the effort, which were collaborations of the departments of chemistry, biology and physics. “We’ve proved that peptides can organize as bi-layers, and we’ve generated the first, real-time imaging of the self-assembly process. We can actually watch in real-time as these nano-machines make themselves.”

Organic – Inorganic Nano-Hybrid Materials


in 1828, a chemist named Friedrich Wöhler accidently created urea. Urea was a compound that mammals produced to get rid of excess nitrogen. Urea is secreted in their urine. Friedrich created it using inorganic (non-living) salts. Everyone was surprised, but chemists then knew that it was possible to create chemicals found in the body using chemicals from the ground or air (non-living sources). So now organic compounds were not defined as only those compounds from organisms, but compounds based on carbon.


The following below is an example electromagnetic phenomenon:

I will give you examples of how information theory works in biology and evolution. This falls under Physical information theory and information theory that deals with any pattern of information that influences the transformation of other patterns into new patterns of information. Here information is not lost, it just simply changes value, function, purpose, state, or behavior. So All of which is below are examples of physical information theory. This includes Chaos theory in regards to "sefl-organization"

Protein: Thermodynamics
Photon Energy and Life
Photon is the energy evolution of everything
Synthetic Life 1
Video: Synthetic Life 2
Self Orgainization and Complexity
Self organizing algorithms through the study of RNA
Gene self-organizing maps
Self-Organizing Biochemical cycles
Physical Role in Biochemical Self Organization

posted on Jul, 23 2012 @ 12:45 AM
We can see such self-organization discussed above in Enzymes:

Enzymes and self-organizing collective dynamics:

Strong diffusional mixing and short delivery times typical for micrometer and sub-micrometer reaction volumes lead to a special situations of self oscillation where the turnover times of individual enzyme molecules become the largest characteristic time scale of the chemical kinetics. Under these conditions, populations of cross-regulating allosteric enzymes form molecular networks that exhibit various kinds of self-organized coherent collective dynamics.

And such allows us to have practical understanding in such as the following:



Further synthetic life links:


DNA Robots:


DNA robots that can reproduce themselves:

The Self-organized gene:


The human Genome in relation to apes. Its the fusion of a chromosome 2:


Observed instances of speciation:

Genotypic speciation of heterotrophic bacteria:

Introduction: to species and speciation in micro-organisms:

posted on Jul, 23 2012 @ 12:48 AM
Everything in existence has pattern from a chaotic system with feedback in which order comes from a system of chaos. All this states is that a pattern can lead to the change of another pattern should said pattern influence and exert pressure on the other as noted below:

* "Information is any type of pattern that influences the formation or transformation of other patterns. In this sense, there is no need for a conscious mind to perceive, much less appreciate the pattern

* what is conveyed or represented by a particular arrangement or sequence of things, or things of representation and value. Example: genetic or, genetically transmitted information.

* Computing data as processed, stored, or transmitted by a computer.

* a mathematical quantity expressing the probability of occurrence of a particular sequence of symbols, impulses, energy, matter., as contrasted with that of alternative sequences.

So lets look at a direct example:

We can also go here under my evolution thread concerning Prions to understand more of what material-physical information is or means, and how it's related to evolution:

We can prove physical information theory and evolution in non-living molecules as We can in living molecules. Prions are non-living molecules that can evolve and adapt to their environment. Ju­pi­ter, Fla discovered that these Prions can develop many different kinds of mutations that help prions develop defenses to withstand against threats. Even viruses that are considered non-living but active matter that can also evolve. However, viruses have a commonality with life known as DNA, and Prions do not. Prions consist of proteins that are composed of amino acids. The mutations are different folding arrangements of the protein molecules that achieve different material physical/informational characteristics much like that of DNA.. These fold­ing arrangements play an ev­o­lu­tion­ary role in pri­ons. This follows the same premise behind the driving force commonly found in cases of co-evolution and mutualism. Sorry creationists, but Darwin's theory of survival of the fittest isn't the only driving force behind evolution. The fact that non-life or non-living active matter evolves, also means that life evolves.

Furthermore, we can get even deeper into information theory and evolution by linking plant and animal into one little critter known as the Green Sea Slug. Here we can observe an example of the deeper communicative process of evolution!. The Green Sea slug can actually steal photosynthesizing organelles and genes from algae. This little slug can produce it's own chlorophyll. Also, Elysia and its genetic kleptomania is yet another example of animals undergoing the sort of horizontal gene transfer that is so commonplace in bacteria to where we can see how the flow of information is a material physical process.

posted on Jul, 23 2012 @ 12:53 AM
b]And here is a lot of things we learned from self-organizing organisms, Genes, self-organizing systems, DNA, and the processes we find in the evolution of life.. All of which also gives us practical application of those processes to our own benefit:

CalResCo, an extensive website about complexity, self-organization and related subjects, including a self-organizing systems FAQ
PCC- Complexity Theory Resources, including Lecture notes on "Complexity: A New Science For A Postmodern World "
Complex Adaptive Systems and Artificial Life: an extensive list of links including conferences
Phil Goetz's complexity page, including a" target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow">complexity dictionary
Yaneer Bar Yam's Guide to Complex Systems
the Complexity Digest: a weekly list of summaries of articles related to complexity that appeared in various journals, a most useful service provided by G. Mayer-Kress
Evolution of Complex Systems: Umur Ozkul's collection of thoughts, essay and links
T. Tolman's Complexity of the Universe page
Complexity Online: a quite elaborate server with Hypermedia papers and pointers to other places
Complexity International: refereed electronic journal on Complex Systems Research
Information on Complex Adaptive Systems in different parts of the Internet
Bruce Edmonds's extensive Bibliography on Measures of Complexity
Santa Fe Institute for the Sciences of Complexity [url=](ftp-server)
Science on the Edge of Chaos: an interactive multimedia service on complexity and chaos including a series of TV programmes
Nonlinearity and Complexity home page at Democritus University of Thrace
Center for Complex Systems Research
Australian National University Bioinformatics
Non-linear Science E-print archive with papers and conference announcements on chaos, adaptation, self-organization etc.
Complex Systems Links on the Web
Complexity, Complex Systems and Chaos: [at] Brint (Business & Technology Research)
resources relevant to the journal "Complexity"
Self-organizing systems Home page (mostly about cybernetic philosophy)
Self-Organizing Systems: a tutorial on the processes and patterns of organization and complexity in natural systems, by Ethan H. Decker
Complexity discussions from the point of view of constructivism and Robert Rosen's theories
Complex Systems research: an extensive list of links
Parameterized Complexity Home Page -- Todd Wareham, U Victoria
Complexity Home Page at Virginia Commonwealth University
[url=]Bayesian Theory As Extended Logic
-- Ed Jaynes
An Introduction to Synergetics
Chaos, Complexity, and Everything Else: a long list of links on chaos, complexity, artificial inteligence, genetic algorithms, and fractals
New England Complex Systems Institute, including the self-organizing, peer-reviewed Interjournal
Complex Adaptive Systems in Finance and strategy, by Mark White

---> Continued to the next post

posted on Jul, 23 2012 @ 12:55 AM
Alife, Evolutionary Systems and Simulations

Artificial Life Online service with lots of info (news, bibliography, journals, ...)
The New Alife Database: Searchable Database of Alife-Related Sites Gathered by a Search Bot
T.S. Ray: An evolutionary approach to synthetic biology (paper on artificial life)
Evolutionary and Adaptive Systems research at the University of Sussex
Illinois Genetic Algorithms Lab
Interactive genetic art (evolves according to user preferences)
Genetically programmed music
FAQ's on Genetic Algorithms
Artificial Life ftp server
Karl Sims' Virtual Creatures: 3D, animated "life forms", developed through simulated evolution
Intelligent Systems: Brendan Kitts's reflections on life, AI, and their future developments, with many useful references
CWRU Autonomous Agents Research Group
MIT Media Lab Autonomous Agents Group, headed by Pattie Maes
Intelligent Software Agents
Web resources on Intelligent Software Agents
University of Vienna Dep. of Theoretical Biology, with research on systems theory of evolution, alife, constructivism, cognition and evolutionary epistemology
Boids , Flocks, Herds, and Schools: a Distributed Behavioral Model
The Swarm simulation system: a software system for complex system simulation devloped at SFI
Liverpool Biocomputation Group (Announcements)
Brian Keely's bibliography on Artificial Life
Boston University's Center for Adaptive Systems
Evolutionary Systems and Artificial Life: lecture notes by Luis Rocha
Bibliography of Alife publications: a very rich collection of online papers, maintained by Ezequiel Di Paolo, covering topics such as complexity, self-organization, evolution, social behavior, robotics, etc. an organization stimulating the development of digital tools and environments for the study of living systems, with impressive visual and virtual reality examples of digital organisms
Nicholas Gessler's site on artificial culture and computational anthropology

We can also address:

posted on Jul, 23 2012 @ 12:59 AM
Support Evolution by Natural Selection (statements posted on respected websites):

Alabama Academy of Science
American Anthropological Association
American Association for the Advancement of Science
Commission on Science Education
American Association of Physical Anthropologists
American Astronomical Society
American Chemical Society
American Geological Institute
American Geophysical Union
American Institute of Biological Sciences
American Physical Society
American Psychological Association
American Society for Microbology
American Society of Biological Chemists
American Society of Parasitologists
American Sociological Association
Association for Women Geoscientists
Association of Southeastern Biologists
Australian Academy of Science
Biophysical Society
Botanical Society of America
California Academy of Sciences
Committee for the Anthropology of Science, Technology and Computing
Ecological Society of America
Federation of American Societies for Experimental Biology
Genetics Society of America
Geological Society of America
Geological Society of Australia
Georgia Academy of Science
History of Science Society
Idaho Scientists for Quality Science Education
Illinois Federation of Teachers
InterAcademy Panel
Iowa Academy of Science
Kansas Academy of Science
Kentucky Academy of Science
Kentucky Paleontological Society
Louisiana Academy of Sciences
National Academy of Sciences

National Association of Biology Teachers

New Mexico Academy of Sciences
New Orleans Geological Society
New York Academy of Sciences
North American Benthological Society
North Carolina Academy of Science
Ohio Academy of Science
Ohio Math and Science Coalition
Pennsylvania Academy of Science
Pennsylvania Council of Professional Geologists
Philosophy of Science Association
Royal Astronomical Society of Canada - Ottawa Centre
Royal Society
Royal Society of Canada
Royal Society of Canada, Academy of Science
Sigma Xi, Louisiana State University Chapter
Society for Amateur Scientists
Society for Integrative and Comparative Biology
Society of Neuroscience
Society for Organic Petrology
Society for the Study of Evolution
Society of Physics Students
Society for Systematic Biologists
Society of Vertabrate Paleontology
Southern Anthropological Society
Tallahassee Scientific Society
Tennessee Academy of Science
Tenessee Darwin Coalition
The Paleontological Society
Virginia Academy of Science
West Virginia Academy of Science

American Society of Plant Taxonomists
American Statistical Association
Affiliation of Christian Geologists
Louisiana State University Museum of Natural Science
Manchester Museum at the University of Manchester (UK)
Science Museum of Minnesota
Union for Reform Judaism
Association of Science-Technology Centers
European Network of Science Centres and Museums (Ecsite)
International Committee for Museums and Collections of Natural History (NATHIST)
Australian Museum
The Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County
Museum of the Earth (Ithaca, New York)
Carnegie Museum of Natural History
Canadian Society for Ecology and Evolution
Canadian Federation of Earth Sciences
New York State Museum

...and a recent updated, reaffirmation -> next post

posted on Jul, 23 2012 @ 01:00 AM

NABT (National Association of Biology Teachers) Position Statement on Teaching Evolution

The frequently-quoted declaration of Theodosius Dobzhansky (1973) that "Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution" accurately reflects the central, unifying role of evolution in the science of biology. As such, evolution provides the scientific framework that explains both the history of life and the continuing change in the populations of organisms in response to environmental challenges and other factors. Scientists who have carefully evaluated the evidence overwhelmingly support the conclusion that both the principle of evolution itself and its mechanisms best explain what has caused the variety of organisms alive now and in the past.

The principle of biological evolution states that all living things have arisen from common ancestors. Some lineages diverge while others go extinct as a result of natural selection, mutation, genetic drift and other well-studied mechanisms. The patterns of similarity and diversity in extant and fossil organisms, combined with evidence and explanations provided by molecular biology, developmental biology, systematics, and geology provide extensive examples of and powerful support for evolution. Even as biologists continue to study and consider evolution, they agree that all living things share common ancestors and that the process of evolutionary change through time is driven by natural mechanisms.

Evolutionary biology rests on the same scientific methodologies the rest of science uses, appealing only to natural events and processes to describe and explain phenomena in the natural world. Science teachers must reject calls to account for the diversity of life or describe the mechanisms of evolution by invoking non-naturalistic or supernatural notions, whether called "creation science," "scientific creationism," "intelligent design theory," or similar designations. Ideas such as these are outside the scope of science and should not be presented as part of the science curriculum. These notions do not adhere to the shared scientific standards of evidence gathering and interpretation.

Just as nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution, nothing in biology education makes sense without reference to and thorough coverage of the principle and mechanisms provided by the science of evolution. Therefore, teaching biology in an effective, detailed, and scientifically and pedagogically honest manner requires that evolution be a major theme throughout the life science curriculum both in classroom discussions and in laboratory investigations.

Biological evolution must be presented in the same way that it is understood within the scientific community: as a well-accepted principle that provides the foundation to understanding the natural world. Evolution should not be misrepresented as 'controversial,' or in need of 'critical analysis' or special attention for any supposed 'strength or weakness' any more than other scientific ideas are. Biology educators at all levels must work to encourage the development of and support for standards, curricula, textbooks, and other instructional frameworks that prominently include evolution and its mechanisms and that refrain from confusing non-scientific with scientific explanations in science instruction.

Adopted by the NABT Board of Directors, 2011. Revised 1997, 2000, 2004, 2008 and 2011 (Original Statement 1995). Endorsed by: The Society for the Study of Evolution, 1998; The American Association of Physical Anthropologists, 1998.

posted on Jul, 23 2012 @ 01:02 AM
Evolution Theory in modern medicine:

There is literally a boat load of evolutionary science in medicine.

Evolutionary medicine is the application of modern evolutionary theory to understanding health and disease. It provides a complementary scientific approach to the present mechanistic explanations that dominate" target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow">medical science, and particularly modern medical education. Researchers in the field of evolutionary medicine have suggested that evolutionary biology should not simply be an optional topic in medical school, but instead should be taught as one of the basic medical sciences.

Such adaptations concern:

The evolution of pathogens in terms of their virulence, [url=v]resistance to antibiotics, and subversion of an individual’s immune system.
The processes, constraints and trade-offs of human evolution.
The evolved responses that enable individuals to protect, heal and recuperate themselves from infections and injuries such as immunity, fever, and sickness behavior, and the processes that regulate their deployment to maximize fitness.
How past adaptation of early humans to their ancestral environment now affects contemporary humans with their different diet, life expectancy, degree of physical exercise, and hygiene.

We also have this:

Antibiotic resistance

Microorganisms evolve resistance through natural selection acting upon random mutation. Once a gene conferring resistance arises to counteract an antibiotic, not only can that bacteria thrive, but it can spread that gene to other types of bacteria through horizontal gene transfer of genetic information by plasmid exchange. It is unclear whether the genetic information responsible for antibiotic resistance typically arises from an actual mutation, or is already present in the gene pool of the population of the organism in question.

For more details on this topic, see antibiotic resistance


The effect of organisms upon their host can vary from being symbioticcommensals that are beneficial, to pathogens that reduce fitness. Many pathogens produce virulence factors that directly cause disease, or manipulate their host to allow them to thrive and spread. Since a pathogen’s fitness is determined by its success in transmitting offspring to other hosts, it was thought at one time, that virulence moderated and it evolved toward commensality. However, this view is now questioned by Ewald.

For more details on this topic, see virulence, virulence factors and optimal virulence

Immune evasion

The success of any pathogen depends upon its ability to evade host immunity. Therefore, pathogens evolve methods that enable them to infect a host, and then evade detection and destruction by its immune system. These include hiding within host cells, within a protective capsule (as with M. tuberculosis), secreting compounds that misdirect the host's immune response, binding its antibodies, rapidly changing surface markers, or masking them with the host’s own molecules.

For more details on this topic, see manipulation of the immune system by pathogens, andevasion of the innate immune system

posted on Jul, 23 2012 @ 01:10 AM
Theist states:

As for the Bacteria, its still bacteria, its changes , regardless of lateral mutation, loss, or any type of supposed gain, its still bacteria. Its not turning into a fish, or a human.

Well, evolution does not state that bacteria will magically change into a human or fish.. However, it does state that it could evolve into more complex organisms should evolution select for it. And this of course would be time scales you know would be in the millions of years. So of course we are not going to witness bacteria instantly changing into a fish. But a guarantee that you will never witness a walking fish magically appear on your desk either! However, let's educate ourselves on Bacteria:

Protozoa (from the Greek words πρωτό, proto, meaning first, and ζωα, zoa, meaning animals; singular protozoon or also protozoan) are a diverse group of single-cell eukaryotic organisms, many of which are motile. Throughout history, protozoa have been defined as single-cell protists with animal-like behavior, e.g., movement. Protozoa were regarded as the partner group of protists to protophyta, which have plant-like behaviour, e.g., photosynthesis.

Protistans are eukaryotes. They have a nucleus, large ribosomes, mitochondria, endoplasmic reticulum, and golgi bodies. Many species have chloroplasts. Some protists divide by way of mitosis, meiosis, or both. The majority of protistians are single-celled, but nearly every lineage also has multicelled forms. Protists are important for the use of food. Saprobes resemble some bacteria and fungi, and some predators and parasites resembles animals. Some are heterotrophs and some are autotrophs. Chytrids, water molds, slime molds, protozans, and sporozans are heterotrophs.

These evolved from bacteria.. But let's get a better picture:

Eubacteria and Archaebacteria: the oldest forms of life

Written by Dr. T. M. Wassenaar Tuesday, 06 January 2009

Bacteria have an extremely important place in the evolution of life. Our knowledge of bacteria helps us understand, observe, and investigate evolution. This exhibits explains what we know about the origin of life on Earth and the role bacteria played and still play in this. As described in this Lecture on the Origin of Life all life originated from a common ancestor (Source: UTDallas). Our other exhibit explains how we can observe mutations in bacteria directly.

Archaeabacteria are a diverse group of bacteria (prokaryotes that do not have a nucleus) and are considered a major group unto themselves. This group is called the Archaea (from Greek, 'old') for short and to distinguish them from the other prokaryotes, all other bacteria are then called Eubacteria.

What are Archaea? They are more similar to eukaryotes than to bacteria in several ways: their cell-wall does not contain peptidoglycan (a component of each bacterial cell). There are other characteristics that Archaea share with eukaryotes, however they do not have a nucleus (which all Eukaryotes have). They form a group by themselves.

The Kingdom Monera is the taxonomic kingdom that comprises all prokaryotes: Eubacteria and Archaebacteria. Monera has been contrasted with the kingdoms of eukaryotic organisms (protists, fungi, plants, and animals).Archaebacteria emerged at least 3.5 billion years ago and are the oldest life forms.There are several theories about the exact phylogenetic relationship (what was derived from what) between archaea, eukaryotes, and eubacteria, as can be seen in two versions of the Tree-of-Life. New insights dictate that eubacteria and archaebacteria diverged from one another near the time of the origin of life, and that eukaryotes were derived from eubacteria.

posted on Jul, 23 2012 @ 01:11 AM
Let's ignore the details. Important is that bacteria (Eu and Archae) have been on earth much longer than eukaryotes; they are probably the oldest forms of life and have populated Earth for most of the time our planet exists. Going back in evolutionary history, the Archaea evolved some 3500 million years ago. Fossiles are mostly not quite as old as that, but occasionally we do find bacterial fossiles. Compare that to the age of the first eukaryotes, 1800 million years ago, or the first animals, 600 million years. Earth is truly the planet of bacteria in this respect!

Look at a cut-up prokaryote to see what is inside
Do you believe the scenario of "Jurassic Park" could come true? Maybe we can't generate dynosaures, but what about bacteria from "jurassic park".

The first inhabitants of Earth did not need oxygen to breath, in fact oxygen was toxic to them, and this gas was rare in the atmosphere in those days. However the cyanobacteria that inhabited Earth in the Precambrium produced oxygen as a waste gas and so helped establish an aerobic ecosystem. Read more about Cyanobacteria. They grew in shallow sea water where they formed mats, and used incoming sunlight for photosynthesis. When such a bacterial mat was covered by mud or sand, light could no longer penetrate and the organisms died. A new mat could form on top of this, and the fossilized buildup of millions of layers resulted in the formation of Stromatolites, which can be seen to this day.

There are three major known groups within the Archaebacteria: methanogens, halophiles, and thermophiles. The methanogens are anaerobic bacteria that produce methane. They are found in sewage treatment plants, bogs, and the intestinal tracts of ruminants. Ancient methanogens are the source of natural gas. Halophiles are bacteria that thrive in high salt concentrations such as those found in salt lakes or pools of sea water. Thermophiles are the heat-loving bacteria found near hydrothermal vents and hot springs. You can read more about these Extremophiles in another exhibit.

This lecture on Diversity of bacteria and archaeans explains the differences in more detail--and in more jargon.

The presence of Archaea and Bacteria changed Earth dramatically. They helped establish a stable atmosphere, and produced oxygen is such quantities that eventually life forms could evolve that needed oxygen in stead of producing it. The new atmospheric conditions calmed the weather so that the extremes were less severe. Life had created the conditions for new life to be formed. It is one of the great wonders of Nature that this could take place.

Last Updated on Friday, 06 March 2009

Now let's go back to this Theist argument:

Once again regardless of what tests are done, it is still basing it off of assumptions.

Incorrect. It's not based on purely assumption like Your GOD THEORY that has zero empirical value or evidence... NASA's research, fore example, has a lot to do with empirically supported data to which includes extremophiles, and even thermophiles. This also includes studies involving arsenic based life forms. I even wrote an article posted an article on possible self-replicating metals:

Scientists take first step towards creating 'inorganic life'

We can also look more into synthetic life:

Synthetic' chromosome permits rapid, on-demand 'evolution' of yeast; Artificial system has built-in diversity generator

... Last Word...

I have posted just a mere fraction of what I could have posted, and I took the time to sit here and convert links and format this information for your own consumption and education.. Though I doubt creationists will bother to actually read the material. If anyone would like me to, I can post a boat load more material here.. Including information theory / science that deals with biochemistry and evolutionary processes. And what Creationsists don't comprehend is that these same processes that are involved in evolution are also --->REQUIRED

posted on Jul, 23 2012 @ 01:16 AM

Originally posted by flyingfish

I don't think you noticed the sarcasm regarding "luminaught".. As in, not enlightened. And clearly no intellectual argument have you put forth yet. :/

Intellectual arguments have been ignored and thrown to the wind hundreds of pages ago.
This thread is all about intellectual dishonesty, logical fallacies and, uhm... sarcasm

Have fun.

Yes, but he doesn't realize that he's not the target audience. And what better than to expose their total lack of intellectual integrity to a targeted audience whom are interested in educating themselves. This includes people we know they are trying to fish for...

posted on Jul, 23 2012 @ 11:38 AM
reply to post by Connector

Yes an episode of Solved is your best source . They are talking about a 72% chance of the human variable. Meaning.....the suspect is 100% human and 72% likely a black male. Can you not understand what this actually means?
Yes it means that there is a section of the DNA which tells them more detail about the suspect.

Humans are 100% genetically identical in DNA compared to other species, except for appearance and genetic defects which actually accounts for a very small .5% of our entire make up which is influenced by environment and parentage.. If your claim, that anyone with different DNA sequences are from a different planet is true, you would have to have a different planet for every variation....i.e. genetic heart disease, hair color, eye color, diabetes, height, weight, etc
How can you say that when you believe in evolution? How do you not know they didn't evolve into another species?

Every human on earth can be genetically traced back to common ancestry.
Which may mean that parts of the DNA are the same.

edit on 23-7-2012 by itsthetooth because: (no reason given)

posted on Jul, 23 2012 @ 11:43 AM
link means the building blocks are all the same...which they wouldn't if the environment (aka different planet) was different.

posted on Jul, 23 2012 @ 11:44 AM
reply to post by Connector

Stupid , stupid crows...learning to manipulate their environment...redundant adaptation at it's best. They're definitely not from here!!!!!!
A crow sledding on a roof top to me is not redundant.

On the other hand a crow developing a complex system where he uses traffic lights and nuts at a street intersection, over and over. and timing them as to allow cars to run over the nuts to break them open, then using the walk lights to safely retreive them, that is redundant, and it really happens.

You have to once again rule out extinctions through target food. It's a scientific fact that he didn't always eat nuts, as he would have devised a way to break them open a long time ago, provided that method also didn't go extinct.

posted on Jul, 23 2012 @ 11:51 AM
reply to post by flyingfish

Oh man.... I forgot about that one, thanks! ☆
That raven is clearly just having fun sledding.

These New Caledonian crows are being observed using a twig like skewer to spear beetle larvae for a yummy target food treat.
If the larva were a target food, he would have had a naturaly equipped way of getting to them, other then by devising the stick method.

This is obviously a case of extinction. He's not automatically equipped to eat them from their homes, therfore its not natual.

Other species that use tools that are NOT automatically connected to their bodys, is a good sign of redundant adaptation, probably from extinctions.

posted on Jul, 23 2012 @ 11:51 AM
reply to post by itsthetooth

Or he simply found a more convenient way because cars weren't around for most of the time crows existed

And PLEASE stop with that target food nonsense, it's a bit silly of you to expect us to deal with a MADE UP WORD that has no bearing in reality

posted on Jul, 23 2012 @ 11:55 AM
reply to post by Luminaught

reply to TheJackelantern.
I'm not a religous kind of guy but I think we are a modified creature, not an evolved thing. I don't understand why humans have some DNA which is not shared by any other creature. Please give an example of a trans species, not just a claim of incrementalism, unless you can demonstrate this most basic of evidence I'm afraid I'll have to keep thinking Darwin wasn't exactly right, nor are creationists, We are far too mysterious for that. I do hold a degree in Cultural Anthopology, but I'm not an expert on the way species developed. Just one cat with wings would work just dandy, or even an ape driving a Mercedes and wearing a Rolex, oh I know, a single celled creature whose turgor pressure endurance has changed, that would be pretty easy, just one cell in all of time.
I do know that DNA is sometimes damaged, but that isn't evolution, that is a birth defect, which would be selected out. what is it 223 gene pairs we do not share with any other creature? I know, get the testimony of one single Mitochondria, but know this, Mitochondria are pretty picky about their instructions, but one shouldn't be too hard. Mutants are not evolution, mutants are damaged instruction sets. BTW please try to give a true example of a trans species fossil, just one okay? Not attacks based on some kind of rationalisation which when examined is nothing more than hyperbole. Here's one maybe! How come Goofy (a dog) has a dog named Pluto, is this evolution or slavery?
Your call, if you figure out one fossile of a trans species please U2U me about it, because I honestly don't believe you can, and it really doesn't matter to me, I'm an old guy and I've looked at a bunch of fossils, even have quite a collection, some of the critters are extinct, but they didn't turn into other things, they just died out. I'd especially like for you to show the 223 gene pairs unique to humans in any other thing on earth. Not just argument, we need a true example to certify you as being correct, you have so far offered nothing more than canned arguments based on your mistaken belief that I think some hairy thunderer made everything. Rote recital does not win arguments and frankly you seem not to have offered anything but fluff, sorry, I win.
I'm sure evolutionists will concot a theory about where these new genes came from. What they will say is that the species that used to share them, have all gone extinct

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