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Can you prove evolution wrong?*

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posted on Mar, 5 2012 @ 01:13 AM
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Originally posted by andersensrm
reply to post by BlackSatinDancer
 


But.....evolution exists, it may be "assisted" or accelerated, but the fact is, it exists.


A big problem in this multiple hundred page thread is that this technicality keeps getting some so stuck.

no one is saying it doesn't exist I believe. not having read every page, I'd still place a twenty on the table for any to find 2 dozen posts where people say it SIMPLY DOES NOT EXIST IN ANY FORM.

now lets not get bent and rehash this another hundred times, please.

the point is that assisted or accelerated evolution seen in humans cannot be pigeon holed into the same type of regular evolution as other examples. that means that it doesn't seem to be SOLELY evolution. it didn't *just happen as some so vehemently claim. That is the argument going on... not whether or not it exists despite how you read the title. it has transpired into much more dicey of an argument than that.
edit on 5-3-2012 by BlackSatinDancer because: (no reason given)




posted on Mar, 5 2012 @ 02:34 AM
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reply to post by BlackSatinDancer
 
Ignoring the fact that this thread is meant to be about explaining diversity without refering to evolution.

Diversity is about the life on this planet and the vast range of different species. Not a place to continually argue about how some god/alien interferred with human evolution. Which BTW there is no proof for so arguing one way or another about someones belief is a waste of time. Hence this failed thread.

Failed because all those that have taken part cannot get past the fact that intervention or not they share a common ancestor with all primates and think attacking evolution will bolster their failing religions.

Anyhow. Evolution of man follows the same path as all over life which is why discussing diversity which excludes all that prejudice could have been interesting.



posted on Mar, 5 2012 @ 08:37 AM
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Originally posted by itsthetooth

In statistics we look at data. When we look at past data, we see what is normal or what is not normal based on averages: Mean, and median. A global population, lets say, all life on Earth, is a massive amount of data, especially when you include the fact that it goes back millions of years, with the fossilized evidence we have acquired. Using all of this data, we can categorize it:
But again, those figures are derived from an educated guess.


No, it's not an educated guess. We use mathematical formulae to derive the mean, median, mode, and standard deviation.
edit on 3/5/2012 by HappyBunny because: Fix quote tags



posted on Mar, 5 2012 @ 08:39 AM
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Originally posted by DoNotForgetMe
Reply to post by MrStyx
 


There is no proof. People cannot stomach the fact that evolution is a THEORY and not FACT. We will know soon enough though. 2012 is here. Finally.


 
Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com
 



Gravity is a theory. Do you doubt it exists?



posted on Mar, 5 2012 @ 08:43 AM
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Originally posted by colin42
Been busy and will be for a day or two but just to remind people this thread is about those who believe evolution is wrong to explain diversity without refering to it.

If you want to try to bolster your faith in your failing religon by attacking evolution try one of the other threads where that circular argument is welcome.

I agree with you ID. tooth is a proven liar, dishonest and frankly brain dead. You can actually feel your IQ drop when talking to him. My list of the things he runs from like a coward is long enough.

Ants,
Wolves,
House Sparrows,
Shrimps (he calls fish),
Balanced eco systems,
milk,
Honey,
bushmen,
Alien hands,
blue laminat DNA.
Target food

Worst of all he cannot even describe diversity which on a thread asking for an alternative explanation of diversity is the sign of the highest level of stupidity.

I fear he must have been anally probed once too often by his alien friends and cannot accept he likes it. And that is the tooth
edit on 3-3-2012 by colin42 because: (no reason given)


Don't forget calcium. And algae are plants.

Also, we have NORMALity. I repeat, we have normality. Anything you still can't cope with is therefore your own problem.




posted on Mar, 5 2012 @ 08:43 AM
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Double post
edit on 3/5/2012 by HappyBunny because: Delete double post



posted on Mar, 5 2012 @ 08:46 AM
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Originally posted by SplitInfinity

Originally posted by sykonot
I can prove all humans fallible.

See any topic regarding the Earth being flat.

We were CERTAIN!

hmmm


In Reality...there are drawings or paintings on some type of Tree Bark or Reed paper that were drawn by Cro-Magnon Man....this is what Homo Sapiens were evolved from...they looked like us...had a slightly larger Brain than us....and even though statisticly they were a bit taller...you or I would find it near impossible to determine who was Cro-Magnon or Homo Sapien in a line up.

These drawings or paintings of the Moon...showed an art form known as SHADOWING....including some Lunar Crators that can bee seen with the naked eye...that prove beyond a doubt...some Groups of Cro-Magnon 40 to 60 thousand years ago KNEW THE MOON AND EARTH were NOT FLAT! They knew they were round.
Split Infinity


So that means they had to get their information from aliens? They weren't bright enough to figure it out for themselves?

Cro Magnon were us. Period. They don't even call them Cro Magnon anymore even though we use it for convenience because most people have heard of them. The new term is Early Modern Humans, although we now know they weren't early at all and that anatomically modern people have been around for more than 100,000 years.



posted on Mar, 5 2012 @ 08:51 AM
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Originally posted by colin42
reply to post by BlackSatinDancer
 
Ignoring the fact that this thread is meant to be about explaining diversity without refering to evolution.

Diversity is about the life on this planet and the vast range of different species. Not a place to continually argue about how some god/alien interferred with human evolution. Which BTW there is no proof for so arguing one way or another about someones belief is a waste of time. Hence this failed thread.

Failed because all those that have taken part cannot get past the fact that intervention or not they share a common ancestor with all primates and think attacking evolution will bolster their failing religions.

Anyhow. Evolution of man follows the same path as all over life which is why discussing diversity which excludes all that prejudice could have been interesting.



first sentence then I STOPPED!...and will not go further until you realize that i was referring to the current ongoing argument in this thread that is NOT attempting to debunk evolution is it's entirety, but debating whether or not there is more to HUMAN (specifically) evolution than just mere evolution.

RECOGNIZE THE FACT THAT THIS IS THE ARGUMENT GOING ON AND THE ONE I WAS REPLYING TO AND TAKE THAT ATTEMPT AT A TECHNICALITY AND STICK IT WHERE THE SUN DON'T SHINE.

unless of course you are way too rigid in that area.

don't bait with petty crap arguments that i have already pointed out is not the current subject matter for the last hundred pages at least and have clarified already that nearly no one is arguing against evolution in general.

now, you want to try that position again Mr flexible?

next time you seal your brain shut try using an elastiomeric substance instead of hardened concrete.
edit on 5-3-2012 by BlackSatinDancer because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 5 2012 @ 08:52 AM
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Originally posted by Varemia

We aren't. We generally survive to our mating years very well. It's only when we age more that we need more medical intervention, something that animals don't have, and is why they have much shorter life-spans.


Agreed. We're generally our healthiest during our reproductive years, then we go downhill. Death is a fact of life, but what all this medical intervention has done is take from a natural part of life to medical failure. If you die, it's because the doctors failed to save you.


It's only a train wreck in your eyes. The life of an ape or chimp or any animal for that matter is death and constant fight for survival. Humans have so much comfort and luxury without fear of dying every moment that we are probably the only species on Earth that is having a good time.


Agreed. Stick us out on the savannah without a rifle and see how good a time we have. We're ridiculously vulnerable in the wild. Even a high powered rifle is no guarantee we won't be lunch for a creature that's bigger and stronger than we are.



Because of water and food not being available. You notice that the animals adapted to those areas do not have the population density of humans nor the energy requirements due to being smaller. It's about humans living in areas not adapted to without access to technology.


Well, there is plenty of food. Nowadays famines aren't caused by lack of food. The problem is corrupt government restricting access to that food. Water shortages are caused by the same thing, on top of poor land management practices. California is a perfect example of that.


None of this is proof of extra-terrestrial origin at all. It's just a pretty stupid attempt to pretend that humans are doing badly on Earth. You must hate yourself or something. I for one find life to be fun to live and filled with comforts and health. My naturally evolved immune system takes care of most diseases by itself.


With a few boosts from the Neanderthals.



posted on Mar, 5 2012 @ 08:56 AM
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Originally posted by BlackSatinDancer

Originally posted by colin42
reply to post by BlackSatinDancer
 
Ignoring the fact that this thread is meant to be about explaining diversity without refering to evolution.

Diversity is about the life on this planet and the vast range of different species. Not a place to continually argue about how some god/alien interferred with human evolution. Which BTW there is no proof for so arguing one way or another about someones belief is a waste of time. Hence this failed thread.

Failed because all those that have taken part cannot get past the fact that intervention or not they share a common ancestor with all primates and think attacking evolution will bolster their failing religions.

Anyhow. Evolution of man follows the same path as all over life which is why discussing diversity which excludes all that prejudice could have been interesting.



first sentence then I STOPPED!...and will not go further until you realize that i was referring to the current ongoing argument in this thread that is NOT attempting to debunk evolution is it's entirety, but debating whether or not there is more to HUMAN (specifically) evolution than just mere evolution.

RECOGNIZE THE FACT THAT THIS IS THE ARGUMENT GOING ON AND THE ONE I WAS REPLYING TO AND TAKE THAT ATTEMPT AT A TECHNICALITY AND STICK IT WHERE THE SUN DON'T SHINE.

unless of course you are way too rigid in that area.

don't bait with petty crap arguments that i have already pointed out is not the current subject matter for the last hundred pages at least and have clarified already that nearly no one is arguing against evolution in general.

now, you want to try that position again Mr flexible?

next time you seal your brain shut try using an elastiomeric substance instead of hardened concrete.
edit on 5-3-2012 by BlackSatinDancer because: (no reason given)


Satin, please read Toothy's posts. You will find an absolute denial of evolution, not just humans but of all species, including bacteria, on the planet.

You might feel that evolution is possible with an assist to some outside agent, but I assure you, you're the only one currently pushing that view.



posted on Mar, 5 2012 @ 09:26 AM
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Originally posted by BlackSatinDancer
What seems to be very clear that despite tracing human DNA all the way back, it still does not explain the accelerated jumps in evolution beyond what is seen in any other species.

What accelerated jumps? This is the type of nonsense people are talking about in this thread. Accelerated jumps? So to you, 300-400 thousand years is accelerated? Where's the proof?


DESPITE how it happened, evolution must have been assisted and I am leaning toward this radiation theory of a certain unusual type. Some type of pure light that does not produce the more unwanted effects of light that is less pure.

I'd like to read more about this theory, you got a link?


I'm not saying i think viruses are impossible, but when you look at what we know of viruses, they seldom have our best interest at heart and i'm not sure if i buy that by becoming immune to them, we evolve. viruses are tiny things of a dark nature and it seems to me that if they were hvoisting us to a new kind of being... it would be to a tinier, darker more unclean and contagious one..

Viruses have their own best interest "at heart". They evolve and humans evolve immunities. It's verified in a lab.


Do not forget that other species get viruses and do not make leaps and bounds in evolution compared to the human model.

What about the whale? I'd say going from sea to land and then back to sea is a much bigger jump than humans and their ancestors have made in the past 2 million years. I'd like a source on this sudden leaps and bounds.
edit on 5-3-2012 by Barcs because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 5 2012 @ 10:50 AM
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Originally posted by HappyBunny

Originally posted by SplitInfinity

Originally posted by sykonot
I can prove all humans fallible.

See any topic regarding the Earth being flat.

We were CERTAIN!

hmmm


In Reality...there are drawings or paintings on some type of Tree Bark or Reed paper that were drawn by Cro-Magnon Man....this is what Homo Sapiens were evolved from...they looked like us...had a slightly larger Brain than us....and even though statisticly they were a bit taller...you or I would find it near impossible to determine who was Cro-Magnon or Homo Sapien in a line up.

These drawings or paintings of the Moon...showed an art form known as SHADOWING....including some Lunar Crators that can bee seen with the naked eye...that prove beyond a doubt...some Groups of Cro-Magnon 40 to 60 thousand years ago KNEW THE MOON AND EARTH were NOT FLAT! They knew they were round.
Split Infinity


So that means they had to get their information from aliens? They weren't bright enough to figure it out for themselves?

Cro Magnon were us. Period. They don't even call them Cro Magnon anymore even though we use it for convenience because most people have heard of them. The new term is Early Modern Humans, although we now know they weren't early at all and that anatomically modern people have been around for more than 100,000 years.


Lets not forget that the entire genome of an extinct human has been decoded. Denisovan, an Asian group of extinct humans related to Neanderthals was found to live in Denisovan caves up to 280,000 years ago.



This level of resolution was sufficient to establish the relationship of Denisovans to Neandertals and present-day humans, but often made it impossible for researchers to study the evolution of specific parts of the genome. The now-completed version of the genome allows even the small differences between the copies of genes that this individual inherited from its mother and father to be distinguished.




Link

Raw Data



posted on Mar, 5 2012 @ 11:02 AM
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reply to post by Tony4211
 





Because it is a means to survive. Why does an animal eat? Why does it seek shelter? To survive. And us relying on medical intervention is a means for us to survive.
So then the question becomes why are we having a struggle with surviving? It's because we aren't from here.




Little to no proof? When was the bible written? A couple thousand years ago? A little before? We have much evidence of human fossils that have been dated long before that.
Well here is where things get complicated. We have proof from DNA and carbon dating that there was human life back then, but not much in the way of our species specifically. I understand there might have been some humans here. Point being, according to Wiki on the mtDNA or mitocondrial eve, our species is over 200,000 years old and never dipped below tens of thousands. So then the question becomes, where are the bones and fossils.

We have never found bones or fossils that prove to be a missing link between any two species. Why is that. There are over 5 million species here you know. I think its because they simply aren't here. In over 150 years we have managed to excavate over 2.5 million bones and fossils and not a single one proves to be a missing link.

No evolutionists claim that there is no such thing as a missing link and they refer to it as a common ancestor. In other words just throw in some more species in between them. No matter what you want to call it, your still not producing a missing link.




We don't have a "target food" because we have such a wide variety of food available to us. I think that is irrelevant to this discussion anyways.
It's not irrelevant when its a golden sign of something that has happened to us. This variety of food was not always present from day one. The start of such was based on us searching for more nutritious food and selection. The bottom line is we never would have ventured out of the box unless we felt that we needed to. Whats going on is we are searching for better food, because food that is better for us is missing from our menu. Granted later on junk food and greed shared in this production but I'm talking about earlier on.

We were provided with many things placed on this planet, to help us eat, but it was also made clear that none of these things were from our home. In other words none of them were specifically made for us. We will always suffer as we try to meet our nutrition demands, trying to suffice with food not meant for us.




I am not too sure what you meant by this. You mean artificial selection? Which is the reason cows produce so much milk. Or why you have certain vegetables due to cultivating other plants in a certain way. Or even the samurai crab, for that matter.
No this was an example I asked people to try to bust for me. Try to think of one relationship example that humans have with any other species that is not invoked and natural. There are none. We share no natural relationship with anything here. In essence if we up and disappeared off this planet not a single thing would miss us.




Do other animals not die of starvation? They do not have the means, so they starve. Thus the story goes for every species on this planet.

Your comparing humans to other life here. Do you honestly think that animals starve as much as Sierra Leone, Central Africa, Zambia, Zambia, Haiti, Ethiopia, Comoros, Burundi, Eritrea, Democratic Republic of the Congo
edit on 5-3-2012 by itsthetooth because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 5 2012 @ 11:05 AM
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reply to post by Tony4211
 





I don't think any question you asked could be related to us not being from here. I think the things you "know" are built off speculation, and I don't really think there is any evidence to support your claims.
I disagree with that when we don't even have food to eat, that was meant for us, I think its more than obvious.



posted on Mar, 5 2012 @ 11:09 AM
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Originally posted by flyingfish

Lets not forget that the entire genome of an extinct human has been decoded. Denisovan, an Asian group of extinct humans related to Neanderthals was found to live in Denisovan caves up to 280,000 years ago.


And modern Papal New Guineans have 5% Denisovan DNA, and other southeast Asians groups do, too. What I find pretty interesting is that the cave where the finger was found is in Altai, which has recently been put forward to be the ancestral/genetic home of the Native Americans.

As I was posting in another thread, the Papal New Guineans are a favorite subject of anthropologists--their culture is so advanced for a people that was cut off from the rest of the world for so long. But what the Denisovan evidence shows is that Jared Diamond et. al. might be wrong: diffusion doesn't always have to be east/west in Asia. It can be north/south.



This level of resolution was sufficient to establish the relationship of Denisovans to Neandertals and present-day humans, but often made it impossible for researchers to study the evolution of specific parts of the genome. The now-completed version of the genome allows even the small differences between the copies of genes that this individual inherited from its mother and father to be distinguished.


I think what this teaches us is that whether we call them Cro Magnon, Early Modern Human, Neanderthal, or Denisovan, one thing is clear: we are all human. Maybe it's possible that multiregional theory AND Stoneking and Out of Africa are both correct.




url=http://www.mpg.de/5018269/denisovan_genome]Link[/url]

Raw Data


Thank you!

edit on 3/5/2012 by HappyBunny because: Add paragraph

edit on 3/5/2012 by HappyBunny because: Missed links at the bottom



posted on Mar, 5 2012 @ 11:20 AM
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Originally posted by Barcs

Originally posted by BlackSatinDancer
What seems to be very clear that despite tracing human DNA all the way back, it still does not explain the accelerated jumps in evolution beyond what is seen in any other species.

What accelerated jumps? This is the type of nonsense people are talking about in this thread. Accelerated jumps? So to you, 300-400 thousand years is accelerated? Where's the proof?


DESPITE how it happened, evolution must have been assisted and I am leaning toward this radiation theory of a certain unusual type. Some type of pure light that does not produce the more unwanted effects of light that is less pure.

I'd like to read more about this theory, you got a link?


I'm not saying i think viruses are impossible, but when you look at what we know of viruses, they seldom have our best interest at heart and i'm not sure if i buy that by becoming immune to them, we evolve. viruses are tiny things of a dark nature and it seems to me that if they were hvoisting us to a new kind of being... it would be to a tinier, darker more unclean and contagious one..

Viruses have their own best interest "at heart". They evolve and humans evolve immunities. It's verified in a lab.


Do not forget that other species get viruses and do not make leaps and bounds in evolution compared to the human model.

What about the whale? I'd say going from sea to land and then back to sea is a much bigger jump than humans and their ancestors have made in the past 2 million years. I'd like a source on this sudden leaps and bounds.
edit on 5-3-2012 by Barcs because: (no reason given)


they don't jump species.

other animals do not jump species, they merely change a bit. Horses get bigger and stronger the more they are used, big lizards get smaller and less carnivorous the less other species and the earth takes their bullcrap, giraffes necks get longer the taller trees get... sloths get tinier the more rare they become after having most of their slow asses get eaten by dinosaurs. more than one of these examples have had PLENTY of time to evolve having been around way longer than us, but not a one of them has learned to read unless you count Mr Ed.

now as I have said before... go marry a chimp and have it's babies.

OH OH..wait a second. that's right!

YOU CAN'T.

cause the sh!t don't work that way since we have..erm... JUMPED SPECIES.

Proof?

Link?

How about just open your eyes.

better yet, go find a nice sweet chimp and just try to start a family (even though it won't work medically) and when you get busted for bestiality.... Show the police this IRREFUTABLE THREAD.

i'm sure they will totally and completely change their minds and apologize to you and your girlfriend.

bananas anyone?



Oh YEAH... I DO BELIEVE SO!

edit on 5-3-2012 by BlackSatinDancer because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 5 2012 @ 11:38 AM
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reply to post by Varemia
 





We didn't until only recently. Humans survived for most our evolution without milk.


And it makes you wonder, how did we get by. Obviously we were under nourished in the calcium department. Some one brain stormed that we can drink cows milk for calcium. The thing you have to realize is that when we are deficient in something, we don't necessary die, we just suffer the consequences. People would have obviously been suffering from the lack of until the introduction of cows milk.




We aren't. We generally survive to our mating years very well. It's only when we age more that we need more medical intervention, something that animals don't have, and is why they have much shorter life-spans.
I beg to differ. When I found out that there are over 4000 defects in our genes and over 2 dozen of them wont allow you to live past puberty. In addition to 1/4 of my phone book being medical related services. In addition to all of us receiving medical intervention from our first day like vaccines and such. I think your wrong.




You mean all the proof you ignore or discard for some convoluted reason? There's plenty of proof of modern-like humans as much as 12000 years ago, which is at least 6-8000 years before the bible.
You totally missed the point. What I mean is how is it we have no growth, no inventions, no history, nothing to show for it.




So having foods that suit us or don't both make us aliens? That's logical (sarcasm)

Well the next time your standing in a giant super supplement store, ask your self which food it is that suits us. It's obvious whats going on here.




Because it adapted to it. We expanded past our adapted habitat and have been adapting to a world culture.
Ok lets look at this for a quick minute.
You say the anteater adapted, just like us.
The ant eater has long claws specifically to tear up the ant hills.
He has special hearing to actually be able to listen to ants crawling around.
He has a special long tongue to be able to reach in the hills with his tongue and pull out ants.

Now keep in mind, I'm a human, not an ant eater. I would know more about myself than I would an anteater.

Now could you please explain to me specifically what we were made for?




It's only a train wreck in your eyes. The life of an ape or chimp or any animal for that matter is death and constant fight for survival. Humans have so much comfort and luxury without fear of dying every moment that we are probably the only species on Earth that is having a good time.
There is no in my eyes, its entirely a comparison.




Crows automatically use humans without being forced to. We get fed on by mosquitoes all the time, and we are bacterial havens. I imagine you will reject any relationship with animals no matter what. You just refuse to believe anything that will break your illusions.
Will that mosquito die if we left this planet? No, my point is that we aren't the only thing they have this relationship with, and we certainly weren't the first.




Because of water and food not being available. You notice that the animals adapted to those areas do not have the population density of humans nor the energy requirements due to being smaller. It's about humans living in areas not adapted to without access to technology.
Damn straight its not available, and did you ever wonder why that is? We have adapted too, its called processed food and additives to store food.




We don't HAVE to. It's a luxury to. It ensures that we don't accidentally let diseases and such through. Entire populations of animals get wiped out by diseases all the time. Before processing, humans ran into that issue with plagues happening. Technically, we can eat raw meat and drink freshwater straight from nature. We're just trying to do away with luck of the draw by processing it.
but you just got done saying its not available. We can't sit by a dead carcus everyday just to get our protein. Are you not seeing there is something wrong with the picture here. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying food is supposed to be handed to us on a silver platter, but just take a look at what we go through to get milk.
We breed the cow, feed the cow, immunize the cow, tend to the cow, milk the cow, process, homogenize, pasteurize, fortify, package, ship, refrigerate. We sure do go through a lot for that milk.






None of this is proof of extra-terrestrial origin at all. It's just a pretty stupid attempt to pretend that humans are doing badly on Earth. You must hate yourself or something. I for one find life to be fun to live and filled with comforts and health. My naturally evolved immune system takes care of most diseases by itself.

I didn't know there was a question as if there is no such thing as other life out there.
edit on 5-3-2012 by itsthetooth because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 5 2012 @ 11:40 AM
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reply to post by Varemia
 





None of this is proof of extra-terrestrial origin at all. It's just a pretty stupid attempt to pretend that humans are doing badly on Earth. You must hate yourself or something. I for one find life to be fun to live and filled with comforts and health. My naturally evolved immune system takes care of most diseases by itself.
Well then the next time you wake up from your man made alarm clock, powered by man made electricity, piped into your home by man made wires, inside your man made structure and your man made heat, and man made AC, to get to your man made processed food.

I hope that feels natural for you.
I for one know its not. You can keep dreaming but there is nothing natural about the way we live here.



posted on Mar, 5 2012 @ 11:42 AM
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reply to post by HappyBunny
 





No, it's not an educated guess. We use mathematical formulae to derive the mean, median, mode, and standard deviation.
No we don't, and if we did, how did they come up with that plan and what is it based on?



posted on Mar, 5 2012 @ 11:42 AM
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reply to post by BlackSatinDancer
 


LMAO! Your going to have to jump in a time machine and go back some 7 million years in order to hook up with your dream date.
Dream date



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