Can you prove evolution wrong

Originally posted by Arrow22
Very interesting article and yes, this might do

Couple of things though...
some of the women developed AIDS after using protection???
Seems a little suspicious but okay

Suspicious why? Condoms are only 85% effective and they're used wrong all the time.

www.publish.csiro.au...

And keep in mind that much of Africa is Catholic, which discourages condom use even to prevent HIV and other STI's.

news.bbc.co.uk...

Also, no one seems to have a solid response as to what actually causes AIDS.

No, they have a pretty good idea of what causes AIDS. Because HIV is a retrovirus it's very difficult to develop a vaccine for it. You can blame reverse transcripase for that, which just goes to show that DNA doesn't always act in your best interest.

I am asking for an example of mutation that persists and gives the organism
a solid advantage in his environment. Now if these women are the only survivors
in thier area and everyone else dies, this example will work.
This one has a few issues I am not comfortable with and the reporting source
could be suspect. I would like to see what the Journal of Medicine would say.

A few years ago there was a man with HIV/AIDS who was "cured" after a bone marrow transplant. The donor turned out to be a Delta 32 carrier.

Now, Delta 32 is a genetic variant of CCR5, which is a protein encoded on the CCR5 gene (chromosome 3). People who carry the Delta 32 MUTATION have a deleted portion of CCR5 which renders them immune to M tropic strains of HIV 1. Deleting the 32p segment of the gene (the arm on the gene where the protein is made) results in a non-functional receptor, and that prevents entry of HIV 1 into the cell.

10% of people in Northern Europe, and those of Northern European descent, carry the mutation. It seems to be a genetic adaptation in response to various diseases, most notably smallpox. They used to think that the mutation was caused by exposure to bubonic plague, but it's been shown that's not the case. Smallpox is THE deadliest disease in human history, killing 300 million people in the 20th century alone. If there was ever a disease in Europe that someone would develop a mutation for, that would be the one.

Originally posted by idmonster

Wahey...Ants have funerals, I didnt know that. Well! thats another trait they share with humans that other animals dont...looking more and more like ants and us are from the same place, still not sure where that leaves mister anteater!

No kidding. I didn't know that either.

www.npr.org...

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
I can't believe this post is still going. Here we are...developing Geneticly Engineered Crops, Cures, Animals...etc...

We can actually watch Bacteria evolve under a microscope when a non-fatal dose of poison or too low a dose of antibiotics delivered to a strain of Bacteria and watch as some die off and the remainders that survive evolve in front of our eyes as food is introduced and the left living to reproduce pass on a Geneticly rewritten resistance to the antibiotics....which is why there are so many SUPERBUGS out there because Mommy demands Antibiotics every time JR. gets the sniffles...after a few doses...JR. feels better...Mommy doesn't finish giving the kid all the pills....and the next time JR gets sick...the Antibiotics don't work.

This is because the Bacteria has EVOLVED....as a COLD is a VIRUS and a VIRUS can only be destroyed by a persons immune system....the sore throat, runny nose...etc...are all symptoms of the Virus and the symtoms get infected by Bacteria as you continue to wipe your nose or cough....bacteria infectsthese areas.

So...NO...NO ONE CAN PROVE EVOLUTION TO BE WRONG. Because we use it every day....and can actually watch it occur in real time. Split Infinity

And here's the kicker. Bacteria share information, which means they can pass on the genes to their neighbors quite easily. As fast as some bacteria replicate, you can have a totally resistant strain in only a few hours.

reply to post by Arrow22

"Darwinism" relies on Genetic and Cellular Mutation.

The only people discussing Darwinism as the explanation for biodiversity are creationists who are stuck in the mid-1800's in terms of the their understanding of science. Darwinism was replaced by Mendelism in the early 1900's, which was in turn replaced by modern evolutionary synthesis in the mid-1900's.

Given that "cellular mutations" are dependent on a genetic mutation being expressed, I'm not clear why you're trying to separate the two concepts. Further, evolution relies on more than just genetic mutation. Mutation is only one mechanism for evolution -- natural selection, genetic flow, genetic drift, and genetic hitchhiking are some of the others.

From what little I know and have read, 99% of all mutations are BAD!!!

I'm not sure where you picked this fact up, but you may want to check your sources. Most mutations are neutral while only some are deleterious or advantageous. And it's not as if there are three discrete categories, either. There's an entire grey area termed "nearly neutral". It's more of a spectrum of classifications.

ie, Cancer, Birth Defects and general mayhem with the organism that has had this mutation.
This is simple Organic Chemistry.

Point mutations are relatively simple organic chemistry, but the expression of those point mutations are far more complex than that.

If this is not true, then we need to change the textbooks.

Which textbooks have you been reading making the claim that 99% of mutations are deleterious?

If it is true, the laws of probability need to be updated.

Can you explain this more clearly? What kind of statistical model do you think mutations should follow?

This topic should bring out a lot of interesting views but the only evidence I really need
is for someone to show me ANY significant helpful (showing advancement) mutation in
ANY species within the last 200 years!!!

Here's three found in humans:

There's a common mutation that yields better lipoprotein profiles and reduces the risk of coronary artery disease. (Galston et al; Z Gastroenterol 1996 Jun;34 Suppl 3:56-8)

There's a common mutation that enhances immune cell function in humans. (Virchow et al; FEBS Lett 1998 Oct 2;436(2):155-8)

There's a common mutation the lowers the risk of myocardial infarction by reducing the presence of one of the factors in the blood coagulation cascade. (Iacoviello et al; N Engl J Med 1998 Jan 8;338(2):79-85)

If you want one outside of humans, you can read about how fish in the Hudson have adapted to PCBs, a pollutant that has only existed for the last 140 years or so.

At least that would give the "Darwinists" some kind of foothold!

Foothold where, exactly? The only two first-world countries that have less than 50% acceptance of evolution are the United States and Turkey and the acceptance of evolution has been increasing over time in both of them.

Until then, the Creationist theory holds as much water as Darwin

Only if you subscribe to the logical fallacy known as argumentum ad populum -- appeal to the majority. The validity of scientific statements doesn't hinge on how many people accept or reject them.

maybe more as the time involved supports the "popping out of nowhere" theory

This claim of yours shows one of two things -- either you don't understand enough about the theory of evolution and the evidence supporting it to understand that it doesn't claim anything "popped out of nowhere", which is correctable if you want to actually take the time to learn about it, or you're intentionally using an intellectually dishonest strawman argument that you know is incorrect, which is probably not correctable but shows the kind of integrity we can expect from your posts in this thread.

reply to post by colin42

No there is only eco systems. I maintain there are no balanced eco systems. You cannot show me otherwise. Lets say for one moment this friend exists. He supplies the sun (puts it in the window) the tank is therefore not a sealed unit as energy is being added by the sun.

Winter sun and summer sun will add less or more energy respectively. Cloudy days alter the energy supplied. It is not a balanced system.

I'm sure they meant its balanced if you supply that.

No you are assuming there could be more to it. I explained in the post with links to back me up. You never looked at what was happening. Poor show on your part really

No again. If you think the earth acts like the sealed torture chamber you are seriously misinformed.

No thats not what I'm saying. I believe the earth is suppose to be a balanced planet. For many reasons like intervention, its not, but its suppose to be.

Another link you supplied but did not read. You should it is very informative. Alas there is not a mention at all of a 'balanced eco system'.

Well like I have explained, its ideal, but because of intervention its all out of balance.

No. I just told you to read it. No one disputes the earth has many eco systems. Just no balanced eco systems

Thats what it means OMG.

Well Pinochio. I did my own research using others research to base my conclusion on and supplied you the information for review free of charge but you refused to look.

Well I'm glad to see that you bought one.

reply to post by colin42

Problem is if you did not read my research on the torture chamber then you really have nothing to say. Proof that you did not read it is in 'I dont think they are advertising...........'. I never said they did. I linked to where they sold the unit, correcting the wrong link you gave then linked to what others had discovered. The truth. It is not a balanced eco system. I then linked to the information on the shrimp.

So seriously you are doing a great job of highlighting your ignorance. Makes me feel a little redundant.

None the less, they still sell them under the title, for a very good reason I might add.

It cannot be a balanced eco system if it kills the shrimp. You do know the motto of this site is 'Deny Ignorance' and not 'Deny in Ignorance' even though you are determined to do so.

well I'm not arguing with you on that. I agree that it sucks he has a short lived life, but the fact is, that still to some degree it is a balanced tank. There is no way that shrimp could live past a week if it wasn't. Now its not a perfect balance but still enough that they can sell it as such.

Nope. I showed you to be incorrect. You have lied ever since. Id rather continue showing that.

I'm not the one marketing them as such.

No really read what I write. Everyone else is usually right only you are always wrong

Your mind is in a twisted little world.

Ya already explained why it is not a balanced eco system

I guess you can nit pic anything to death at the rate your going but maybe his was just more balanced.

And you know that without any research. Your very trusting of fraudsters. Colin did find lies. Mainly yours.

Well I don't trust you so how is that working.

No my lie detector has sniffed out every lie you have told. 100% accuracy. Thats why your so upset.

Not upset on this end. Just laughing at how you like to pick everything apart until you can try to make it into a lie.

reply to post by Arrow22

Very interesting article and yes, this might do

Couple of things though...
some of the women developed AIDS after using protection???
Seems a little suspicious but okay

That's because they recently found out that there was this lubricant they were using that was actually causing irritation to the skin, and actually spreading infection.

The sad part is they are still using the lube. In some cases your better off to not use a condom with that lube in it.

the-illuminati.net...

Originally posted by itsthetooth
well I'm not arguing with you on that. I agree that it sucks he has a short lived life, but the fact is, that still to some degree it is a balanced tank. There is no way that shrimp could live past a week if it wasn't. Now its not a perfect balance but still enough that they can sell it as such.

It's either balanced or it isn't. There is no halfway here.

Originally posted by itsthetooth
reply to post by Arrow22

 

Very interesting article and yes, this might do

Couple of things though...
some of the women developed AIDS after using protection???
Seems a little suspicious but okay

That's because they recently found out that there was this lubricant they were using that was actually causing irritation to the skin, and actually spreading infection.

The sad part is they are still using the lube. In some cases your better off to not use a condom with that lube in it.

the-illuminati.net...

edit on 2-3-2012 by itsthetooth because: (no reason given)

This falls under the heading of "using them wrong." If you put lube on your penis before you put on the condom, it's going to slip off.

reply to post by colin42


Here is some more of what you claim doesn't exist.

www.brookstone.com...

www.eco-sphere.com...

www.eco-sphere.com...

www.abundantearth.com...

www.windandweather.com...

www.scientificsonline.com...

Here is a wiki on them.
en.wikipedia.org...

A lot of these are from the same store.
Some of these did not get good reviews, but I guess you can't always have perfection. They are selling them as ecospheres, sealed, and maintenance free.

As you can see from the amount of links I have provided, this is not a black market item, you can get them off amazon and other major outlets. They are all being sold under the idea to be in some form of a balance as to allow them to be sealed and maintenance free.

reply to post by HappyBunny

This falls under the heading of "using them wrong." If you put lube on your penis before you put on the condom, it's going to slip off.

No its a pre-lubed condom, you have no option other than buying non lubed condoms, to not use the lube. Of course people were intentionally buying them with the N9 because it was suppose to help against pregnancy and stds. Come to find out it was actually doing the opposite.

reply to post by HappyBunny


Very Interesting about the height thing, thanks for the reply.

reply to post by itsthetooth

I'm sure they meant its balanced if you supply that.

If you supply the sunshine then how do you control the ammount of sunshine to keep the energy in at a constant? How do you know what the level of energy you need to supply is?

It also now means two more factors outside the sealed unit are part of the so called balanced system. I very much doubt you will understand that but this means the sealed globe cannot be a balanced eco system

No thats not what I'm saying. I believe the earth is suppose to be a balanced planet. For many reasons like intervention, its not, but its suppose to be.

There is no supposed to be about it. Your globe does one thing. It demonstrates there is no such thing as a balanced eco system. Your friend by adding sunlight is in fact intervening and still the system is not balanced. If he does not then it dies sooner. None of your beliefs make any sense.

Well like I have explained, its ideal, but because of intervention its all out of balance.

Here you go again. Unfounded clap trap yet your own discovery. 'the sealed globe clearly shows you there is no such thing as a balanced eco system.

Thats what it means OMG.

This demonstrates you have no idea what you are talking about. The earth has many eco systems does not mean a balanced eco system. Please learn the meaning to the words you use.

Well I'm glad to see that you bought one.

And what does that mean you pudding because it sure as hell was not an answer to my point. (Below)

Well Pinochio. I did my own research using others research to base my conclusion on and supplied you the information for review free of charge but you refused to look.

Originally posted by itsthetooth
would take trillions of years to happen.

Where is your basis for this comment? How do you know it would take trillions of years? And that also implies that you acknowledge that evolution exists, just that you can't see how it would happen in such a relatively short amount of time. "I can't think of how it would work, So it must not exist!"

Originally posted by itsthetooth
reply to post by HappyBunny

 

This falls under the heading of "using them wrong." If you put lube on your penis before you put on the condom, it's going to slip off.

No its a pre-lubed condom, you have no option other than buying non lubed condoms, to not use the lube. Of course people were intentionally buying them with the N9 because it was suppose to help against pregnancy and stds. Come to find out it was actually doing the opposite.

Even with pre-lubed, people still put it on before the put the condom on. And they've known about the N9 for 15 years. It's not that people aren't using protection. They're being sold a defective product.

Originally posted by andersensrm
reply to post by HappyBunny

 

Very Interesting about the height thing, thanks for the reply.

You're welcome.

reply to post by itsthetooth

None the less, they still sell them under the title, for a very good reason I might add.

Yep. So stupid people like you who dont give a fig for life other than your own buy the torture chambers. Jeeze you even had to be told it was a shrimp and not a fish.

well I'm not arguing with you on that. I agree that it sucks he has a short lived life, but the fact is, that still to some degree it is a balanced tank. There is no way that shrimp could live past a week if it wasn't. Now its not a perfect balance but still enough that they can sell it as such.

Will it never sink in? If it kills the shrimp after at most 1 to 3 years when the shrimp should have been expected to live for around 20 then it is not a balanced eco system.

This also goes against what you have been saying all along. You say the earth is out of balance and humans die younger because of that. They lead a diminished life. Now you say that leading a shorter, deminished life still means balance. You cant have it both ways

So what is it. The earth is balanced despite intervention or the globe is not balanced?

I'm not the one marketing them as such.

You are the one on this thread saying that they are a balanced eco system

Your mind is in a twisted little world.

Thank god its not in a sealed globe with you staring at me.

I guess you can nit pic anything to death at the rate your going but maybe his was just more balanced.

You call it nit picking, I call it your ignorance

Well I don't trust you so how is that working.

Great. You always dimiss the truth over snake oil.

Not upset on this end. Just laughing at how you like to pick everything apart until you can try to make it into a lie.

OOps there goes the alarm again. How long is that nose now?

reply to post by colin42

If you supply the sunshine then how do you control the ammount of sunshine to keep the energy in at a constant? How do you know what the level of energy you need to supply is?

When sun hits the tank, several things start to happen. You get photosynthesis from the plant, but you also get reaction to the water. The larger the plant, the more food for the fish and the less nitrates. This allows the fish to eat the plant as necessary. The only way you can harm this tank is by not supplying sunlight which starves the plant and fish.

It also now means two more factors outside the sealed unit are part of the so called balanced system. I very much doubt you will understand that but this means the sealed globe cannot be a balanced eco system

Well its never 100% in balance, and in fact with these types of set ups, they are probably more along the lines of 20 to 50%. It's a real shotty attempt to try to do what our planet is constantly trying to do.

As an example, when humans get sick, its the planet striking back at us because we are not part of the balance of this planet. Of course we do everything we can to try to force the planet to accept us, but it will be a never ending battle. This planet will reject us forever.

Apes and chimps as an example might get sick once in a blue moon, but they also don't have medical intervention from there first day of birth. They can live just fine, and no problems. When they do get sick, its most likely from our presence, because we are the ones that don't belong here. Our presence on this planet makes a lot of other life sick. We don't belong here.

There is no supposed to be about it. Your globe does one thing. It demonstrates there is no such thing as a balanced eco system. Your friend by adding sunlight is in fact intervening and still the system is not balanced. If he does not then it dies sooner. None of your beliefs make any sense.

I think from a fundamental point of view, it proves the point.

Here you go again. Unfounded clap trap yet your own discovery. 'the sealed globe clearly shows you there is no such thing as a balanced eco system.

You could argue that, but only in the eyes of perfection. The basic idea wins, which is also why they are able to sell them.

This demonstrates you have no idea what you are talking about. The earth has many eco systems does not mean a balanced eco system. Please learn the meaning to the words you use.

A sealed system insinuates that it is in fact a balanced system.

And what does that mean you pudding because it sure as hell was not an answer to my point. (Below)


Well Pinochio. I did my own research using others research to base my conclusion on and supplied you the information for review free of charge but you refused to look.

Again I think your just nit picking and this is also why they are able to sell these tanks sealed. Your not going to get a perfectly balanced eco system with just 2 or 3 elements of life contained. This planet and its life is a hell of a lot more complicated than that. These are not being sold solely for there science, but there novelty as well.

reply to post by andersensrm

Where is your basis for this comment? How do you know it would take trillions of years? And that also implies that you acknowledge that evolution exists, just that you can't see how it would happen in such a relatively short amount of time. "I can't think of how it would work, So it must not exist!"

I speculate that scientists are overlooking one major flaw in the realization of microevolution. Evolutionists are seeing this as a must be proof of things changing out of there species. Meh.

What I see is that we base our understanding of life and species on what we call normal. Again its normal that people are 5 or 6 feet tall, and when we get someone out of bounds, it appears to be a defect. What I'm saying is we are basing our idea of a defect on what we consider to be normal and nothing scientific behind it to back it up. Now had scientists have stepped forward and located the genes that determine how tall we are suppose to be, and from that were also able to tell that anything between 4 and 8 feet tall is normal, then I would believe in whats going on. But thats not the case. We base it on whats the norm. What this teaches us is that first of all we don't know a damn thing when it comes to knowing what is suppose to be normal and whats not, we are making assumptions.

The other thing it teaches us is that these changes that evolutionists try to eyeball as evolution might in fact just be normal and have nothing to do with evolution.

Originally posted by itsthetooth
When sun hits the tank, several things start to happen. You get photosynthesis from the plant, but you also get reaction to the water. The larger the plant, the more food for the fish and the less nitrates. This allows the fish to eat the plant as necessary. The only way you can harm this tank is by not supplying sunlight which starves the plant and fish.

Not quite. Elevated nitrate levels, as low as 10 ppm, encourage algae growth. Second, high nitrate levels mean decreased oxygen levels.

Now, plants do use nitrates, but if the nitrates rise faster than the plants can use them, the plants themselves get infected with algae and die.

Do these things use filters? If not, its no wonder the poor shrimp die, and no fish could survive such conditions.

Well its never 100% in balance,

Then.
It's.
Not.
BALANCED!!!

As an example, when humans get sick, its the planet striking back at us because we are not part of the balance of this planet. Of course we do everything we can to try to force the planet to accept us, but it will be a never ending battle. This planet will reject us forever.

This is, quite frankly, delusional. Please take a microbiology class in addition to genetics.

Apes and chimps as an example might get sick once in a blue moon, but they also don't have medical intervention from there first day of birth. They can live just fine, and no problems. When they do get sick, its most likely from our presence, because we are the ones that don't belong here. Our presence on this planet makes a lot of other life sick. We don't belong here.

Here we go again.

A sealed system insinuates that it is in fact a balanced system.

Wow. :

Again I think your just nit picking and this is also why they are able to sell these tanks sealed. Your not going to get a perfectly balanced eco system with just 2 or 3 elements of life contained. This planet and its life is a hell of a lot more complicated than that. These are not being sold solely for there science, but there novelty as well.

No, they're able to sell them because of the claptrap mythological ecoterrorists' blatantly false statements that there is such a thing as a "balanced ecosystem."

There is no such thing. There is only change.