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Can you prove evolution wrong?*

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posted on Mar, 1 2012 @ 05:05 PM
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reply to post by idmonster
 



Wahey...Ants have funerals, I didnt know that. Well! thats another trait they share with humans that other animals dont...looking more and more like ants and us are from the same place, still not sure where that leaves mister anteater!
Dam it. How did I miss that one. Brilliant. The stars are flying your way




posted on Mar, 1 2012 @ 05:15 PM
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Definately a case where natural selection could be present but they do not show
that this is a new mutation nor does is show an evolution into a new species.

This does, however, qualify for the 1% of mutations that do not kill you.

It is a far cry in showing a "bad" mutation that works for good and creating a frog from
Primordial Ooze then getting a Dog from that and then a Cat then an Ape then Us.

Where do the Horses come in and the Birds and the Worms.

Darwinism seems to imply that all these creatures came from the same tree trunk of life.
Screw the differences between Us and Apes, what about the Differences between Apes and Wolves?
If we all came from the same porridge, where/when did natural selection begin? especially when there
seems to only be kind of life in the beginning?

Does that make any sense to anyone or are the Pushers of Darwinism just Sheeple?
(Now that is an evolutionary aspect I can accept and have actually seen)



Originally posted by colin42
reply to post by Arrow22
 
Here is another example

Sickle Cell gives immunity to malaria

Interesting paragraph shows the sickle cell trait is more common in high malaria areas and shows natural selection at work. A case where an otherwise considered negative mutation has a benificial affect.

Have a read. very informative




posted on Mar, 1 2012 @ 05:22 PM
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Originally posted by colin42
reply to post by idmonster
 



Wahey...Ants have funerals, I didnt know that. Well! thats another trait they share with humans that other animals dont...looking more and more like ants and us are from the same place, still not sure where that leaves mister anteater!
Dam it. How did I miss that one. Brilliant. The stars are flying your way



The really weird thing is...I was being sarcastic when I posted, and then googled "ant funerals".

Apparently havester ant do !!!



posted on Mar, 1 2012 @ 05:37 PM
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reply to post by Arrow22
 
Now hold fire a moment.
you asked for


I am asking for an example of mutation that persists and gives the organism
a solid advantage in his environment.
The sickle cell trait does just that


Definately a case where natural selection could be present but they do not show that this is a new mutation nor does is show an evolution into a new species.
It shows natural selection is present and you never asked originally for an example of it causing evolution into a new species


This does, however, qualify for the 1% of mutations that do not kill you.
It actually qualifies for both. 25% of the population develop full sickle cell anemia.


It is a far cry in showing a "bad" mutation that works for good and creating a frog from
Primordial Ooze then getting a Dog from that and then a Cat then an Ape then Us.
Not only did you not ask for that. That is not the way evolution works. Sorry.

Jeeze you have suddenly turned into a question machine gun. The answers to which will need a load more pages. You need to do a bit of research to be honest there is plenty available. Keep using Darwinism really shows where you are coming from.

There are loads of threads for that type of discussion this thread is meant to be about describing diversity without refering to evolution. Yeah I know the title was changed by the mods. Go back and read the OP. If the topic interests you please come back.



posted on Mar, 1 2012 @ 05:44 PM
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reply to post by idmonster
 
Your right. Do you think they mound them up ready fro the rapture?

Joking aside this thread is making me a bit of an ant fan.



posted on Mar, 1 2012 @ 05:49 PM
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Please, Educate me.

How does Evolution work? When does it start?

Please start from the beginning as I cannot really find that anywhere...



Originally posted by colin42
Not only did you not ask for that. That is not the way evolution works. Sorry.




posted on Mar, 1 2012 @ 06:03 PM
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reply to post by Arrow22
 



Please, Educate me.

How does Evolution work? When does it start?

Please start from the beginning as I cannot really find that anywhere...
.
I think I detect a bit of sarcasm in your reply. Take a breath and calm down.

First evolution is not a thing. Its a name used to describe a process. That process started once life started.

I dont buy that you cannot find the information anywhere and I have already told you I have no interest in the circular argument you appear to be after.

Tell me how you explain the diversity we see around us and lets see what happens after that.


edit on 1-3-2012 by colin42 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 1 2012 @ 06:14 PM
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No malice is intended...
Just conversing...

The panspermia theory is the only one that makes any kind of sense to
anyone that actually thinks.

It could be Ancient Aliens, God or maybe something we have not even thought of.

There is far to much diversity here to say it all came from a flash of lightning
even 3 billion years ago. I have to Question the education of some of these
"scientists" that imply everything came from goop. It makes no sense to a
rational mind.

Sorry if I came across poorly.

I still did not hear anything about when Darwinism actually starts and, to date,
That is the one thing that cannot be argued because it all falls apart right there.



posted on Mar, 1 2012 @ 06:24 PM
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reply to post by Arrow22
 
No problem. I just dont want to get involved in the usual argument. I hoped to gain a little understanding of others views even though we have a pest that prevents it.

As far as I am concerned panspermia is as good an explanation for how life started as any. So is a god, an alien or a lightening strike. Evolution has nothing to say about how life started. It just describes how life evolved from then to now.

It also does not = better or superior. So if panspermia is your explanation for how life started fair enough. Evolution describes what happened next.

Off to bed now. Hope to chat latter



posted on Mar, 1 2012 @ 06:40 PM
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An Introduction to Phenotypes

In its simplest, biological definition, a phenotype is the expression of a gene that causes a certain body shape to evolve. (Strictly speaking a phenotype is anything that is caused by the expression of a gene, A beehive is a phenotype of bee genes, as is honey and pollination)

Some genes express themselves as a mammalian phenotype, some as insect, fish and so on. I will stick with mammalian for this post, but the ideas hold true for any phenotype.

I think somebody earlier stated that species is a theoretical concept, designed and defined by man to assist us in our classification of the multitude of animal diversity we see around us. I think this was a good, clear definition, but also think it needs to be taken further.

Back to phenotypes, but remember the paragraph above. While you and I have similar body shapes we are in no way identical. If we were to measure each and every bone in our bodies, we would find on comparison that the dimensions differ throughout. These bone dimensions are an example of how our genes expressed themselves, yes nutrition, exercise, lifestyle all come into it, but even if we grew up in exactly the same environment, with the same nutritional provisions, there would still be variation.

Now, in my world, I can control the growth of each and every bone in my body and within a few minutes, apply my skill and match you exact build. We may still look superficially different due to skin or hair colour, but to all intents and purposes, we would be matches.

The mammalian phenotype is the same throughout all mammal species. That is all of the same bones, are in the same places, just at different dimensions across the variety. This means that using my super powers as described above, without adding or removing any bones or organs, merely changing the dimensions, I could replicate any mammal on the planet…we’re that alike.

The mammalian body, all mammalian bodies are like this because they all come from the same “template”, the same common ancestor. Now that common ancestor was not what we might call a mammal today,(but then mammal is also a manmade concept) for the simple reason that it also was the common ancestor for modern, or “new world” reptiles. (Notice the similarities in body shape..number of limbs, eyes etc)

So all mammals can become all other mammals if I were to share my power. (size of an elephant – Arabian nights anyone?) And these are just superficial changes to body shapes accumulating over time, absolutely no different to humans getting taller, shorter, longer arms, all perfectly “normal“ variations “allowed” within the phenotype.

I have already stated that if left to pure mutation, the dark ones estimates of trillions of years to produce all of the species in their current forms probably wouldn’t be far off, but you would have to ignore natural selection, catastrophic extinction level events, sexual selection, in fact all of the good stuff that we group into the concept of evolution.

Speciation is immaterial at this point; it wouldn’t take much of a genetic mutation, regardless of cause to prevent interbreeding. And this is the same throughout the natural world.

The entire variety of life we see about us is due to genes and how they are expressed, and the one thing that ALL life, in despite its phenotype, has in common is DNA. There is no point in arguing against speciation as it is a manmade concept, there’s no point in arguing against evolution as it merely points out that some heritable traits help animals to survive, and there are many contributing factors.

I would argue that not only is species a concept that can be disregarded when looking at life in the closest of detail; you could also drop the entire taxonomy system, even organisms, organs and cells. All are manmade concepts, words to helps us label and classify the things we observe around us (not in reality, in reality we need the these classifications and labels or we’d never get a thing done! )

There is only one thing found on this planet that replicates, DNA, everything else is just what DNA uses to replicate.



posted on Mar, 1 2012 @ 06:51 PM
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reply to post by Arrow22
 


Hi Arrow,

I like panspermia, I think its a reasonable vector for DNA, or DNA containing bacteria to have arrived on earth, and recent research carried on on the variety of space labs suggest that some bacteria can survive the extreme tempretures of outer space.

As I said, a plausable enough theory but theres two thing missing:

1. How did the life get to where it came from. (not for this thread, but would be remiss of me not to mention it)
2. It still absolutly fails to explain the diversity of life currently on the planet without evolution.

Anyway, welcome to the thread. And you need to drop darwinism as an argument against....well anything really. It was right for its time and it started the whole field of research but its way way out dated now. For a more up to date model of evolutionary theory, look up neo darwinian synthesis, or just the modern synthesis.



posted on Mar, 1 2012 @ 06:56 PM
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Here at ATS, people debate all sorts of conspiracies- from the mundane to the ludicrous. How ironic that, the new method for proving a conspiracy of the greatest magnitude, one needs only ask if it can be disproven. The problem with conspiracies is that they can't be disproven, because they evolve. Evolution might well be the greatest conspiracy ever posed, with the largest ever accumulation of tampered and engineered evidence. The purported evidence isn't tampered? Prove it!



posted on Mar, 1 2012 @ 07:01 PM
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reply to post by onthedownlow
 


Excellent Post

but be careful, you may be labeled a Rational Mind and not a Sheeple



posted on Mar, 1 2012 @ 11:09 PM
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Originally posted by onthedownlow
Here at ATS, people debate all sorts of conspiracies- from the mundane to the ludicrous. How ironic that, the new method for proving a conspiracy of the greatest magnitude, one needs only ask if it can be disproven. The problem with conspiracies is that they can't be disproven, because they evolve. Evolution might well be the greatest conspiracy ever posed, with the largest ever accumulation of tampered and engineered evidence. The purported evidence isn't tampered? Prove it!


Yeah, the thread title was changed from its original, and it has been throwing people off. The true purpose of this topic isn't to prove evolution wrong, but to provide an alternative explanation for the diversity of life.



posted on Mar, 1 2012 @ 11:43 PM
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Originally posted by Arrow22
Please, Educate me.

How does Evolution work? When does it start?

Please start from the beginning as I cannot really find that anywhere...



Originally posted by colin42
Not only did you not ask for that. That is not the way evolution works. Sorry.



Considering all of that has been posted multiple times in this thread, I will simply refer to you google. Read the wiki on evolution, search for proof of evolution. It's not hard to find. What you need is an evolution 101 class. Maybe you and Toothy can sign up together!


Here's a site that offer free educational DVDs. You guys might find these interesting:

www.hhmi.org... - Bones, Stones, and Genes: The Origin of Modern Humans

www.hhmi.org... - Evolution: Fossils, Genes, and Mousetraps

www.hhmi.org... - Evolution: Constant Change and Common Threads

www.hhmi.org... - The Making of the Fittest

That's free DVDS, pretty sure they even pay the shipping. The knowledge is there, embrace it, don't fear it. Anybody who's an evolution skeptic or evolutionarily challenged should scoop these up immediately.
edit on 1-3-2012 by Barcs because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 2 2012 @ 12:22 AM
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Originally posted by onthedownlow
Here at ATS, people debate all sorts of conspiracies- from the mundane to the ludicrous. How ironic that, the new method for proving a conspiracy of the greatest magnitude, one needs only ask if it can be disproven. The problem with conspiracies is that they can't be disproven, because they evolve. Evolution might well be the greatest conspiracy ever posed, with the largest ever accumulation of tampered and engineered evidence. The purported evidence isn't tampered? Prove it!


It is true that science evolves but this does not constitute conspiracy. Science must correct itself if proven wrong and will do so if the data conflicts.
Your wrong conspiracies can be disproven

The greatest conspiracy ever posed is the con job.



posted on Mar, 2 2012 @ 03:52 AM
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Originally posted by Arrow22
99% of all mutations are BAD!!!

That's just BS. At least in the human genome, of which only a tiny fraction is protein/RNA coding, over 99% of single nucleotide mutations are neutral.
edit on 2-3-2012 by rhinoceros because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 2 2012 @ 04:12 AM
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I can't believe this post is still going. Here we are...developing Geneticly Engineered Crops, Cures, Animals...etc...

We can actually watch Bacteria evolve under a microscope when a non-fatal dose of poison or too low a dose of antibiotics delivered to a strain of Bacteria and watch as some die off and the remainders that survive evolve in front of our eyes as food is introduced and the left living to reproduce pass on a Geneticly rewritten resistance to the antibiotics....which is why there are so many SUPERBUGS out there because Mommy demands Antibiotics every time JR. gets the sniffles...after a few doses...JR. feels better...Mommy doesn't finish giving the kid all the pills....and the next time JR gets sick...the Antibiotics don't work.

This is because the Bacteria has EVOLVED....as a COLD is a VIRUS and a VIRUS can only be destroyed by a persons immune system....the sore throat, runny nose...etc...are all symptoms of the Virus and the symtoms get infected by Bacteria as you continue to wipe your nose or cough....bacteria infectsthese areas.

So...NO...NO ONE CAN PROVE EVOLUTION TO BE WRONG. Because we use it every day....and can actually watch it occur in real time. Split Infinity



posted on Mar, 2 2012 @ 07:01 AM
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Originally posted by itsthetooth
[ You can't seal them unless they are balanced, OMG your such a moron. How do you expect anything to live?


Did it ever occur to you that the mere act of sealing the tank changes conditions?



posted on Mar, 2 2012 @ 07:05 AM
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Originally posted by itsthetooth
reply to post by colin42
 


The bottom line here colin is that these companys build and market these balanced tanks as such.
People buy them and utilize them as such.

But collin is having a problem accepting them as such.
This isn't about whats truth and whats a lie based on what colin accepts or not.
Sorry to be the one to tell you but they allready marketed it and sold it and people are happy with it.
You really need to find another angle to argue because your just looking stupid.


People arehappy with it because they apparently don't realize that they're reducing the life span of the poor shrimp to 1/20 of its average life. They think they're doing the right thing, but don't do their homework to the point where it's clear they're torturing the poor creature.




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