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Can you prove evolution wrong?*

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posted on Jan, 14 2012 @ 03:14 PM
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Originally posted by itsthetooth

Now wait a minute, did we adapt and find out it helped us or did we do it because we felt the need too?


The first.

Progress and Evolution share many traits: trial and error followed by preservation of what worked.




posted on Jan, 14 2012 @ 04:32 PM
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reply to post by Brasov
 


So are you agreeing we just magically adapted and it just so happened to be what saved us, or we purposly took on the trait becasue we needed it to survive?



posted on Jan, 14 2012 @ 04:51 PM
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Originally posted by itsthetooth

So are you agreeing we just magically adapted and it just so happened to be what saved us, or we purposly took on the trait becasue we needed it to survive?


I've already answered to that but the appeal to magic is yours, not mine. Please explain why you believe trial and error is magical.

As a creationist you see no problem postulating a creator entity that "just happens to be by magic"... so I have a question for you: can't your very same "logic" conclude that the Universe "just happens to be by magic" as well?

It wouldn't require more faith and it wouldn't be more miraculous, would it?

What's more, that would explain the Universe just as well (or as bad) as a creator does, but since this approach doesn't propose any additional entities it's more plausible, isn't it?
edit on 14-1-2012 by Brasov because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 14 2012 @ 05:55 PM
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reply to post by itsthetooth
 



So I gather from your response you don't believe that fagellum is real? A real life organism.
Do you really think that I would waste my time any further showing you to be wrong here as well as you have been shown many times before your more deluded than I gave you credit for.


For someone that believes we have made advancments, you sure are short for words to explain why its happened.
For someone that has had all of this explained to you many times I am shocked you still do not understand.


Neither, we didn't evolve from bushmen, according to evolution we evolved from apes, I'm saying we were better off then.
The things you will do and the lengths you will go too to avoid answering the question. Even you cannot believe I maintained we evlolved from bushmen. I am now thinking you dont even know what they are. As you have been endlessly informed on pretty much every page we did not evolve from apes. You maintain your debateing skills have improved when the evidence in front of me shows you have the debating skills of a rock.


Is it my fault you offer nothing worth learning.
Typical response of the ignorant and uneducated. Well done.


Your admitting your role as the teacher really sucks.
Listen. I would never take on the role as your teacher. What a thankless waste of time that would be. You came to this thread about explaining diversity we see today without refering to evolution and have taken a seat like a drunken vagrant yelling how wrong everyone is and ranting about little green men.


Now wait a minute, did we adapt and find out it helped us or did we do it because we felt the need too?
And like the drunken vagrant most, no all of your rantings make no sense at all. What on earth are you rambling on about now?



posted on Jan, 14 2012 @ 07:16 PM
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reply to post by Brasov
 





I've already answered to that but the appeal to magic is yours, not mine. Please explain why you believe trial and error is magical.
Trial and error are not magic, that ability just appearing out of no where is.




As a creationist you see no problem postulating a creator entity that "just happens to be by magic"... so I have a question for you: can't your very same "logic" conclude that the Universe "just happens to be by magic" as well?


Well even better, if a creator made us, who made the creator. I don't take either choice to the full idea, there must be another way we don't yet understand.




It wouldn't require more faith and it wouldn't be more miraculous, would it?
That depends on how you look at it. If evolution was a bug, and we never see this bug, it is odd that it does exist, but not impossible.




What's more, that would explain the Universe just as well (or as bad) as a creator does, but since this approach doesn't propose any additional entities it's more plausible, isn't it?
I choose neither and only use each to discard either other. I believe we were placed here from another planet. Now what happened before that, who knows. But we didn't evolve here on earth. We are just lacking proof in any of the steps. Scientists have witnessed a virus adapting so everyone that believes in evolutionism wants to call CNN. I'm sorry I really think peeps are jumping the gun, making a lot of assumptions and its all based on something that isn't even related to humans.



posted on Jan, 14 2012 @ 07:27 PM
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reply to post by colin42
 





Do you really think that I would waste my time any further showing you to be wrong here as well as you have been shown many times before your more deluded than I gave you credit for.
Well if that was your goal, you epically failed, because the only thing you have taught me is just how wrong evolution is, based on the links you provided.




For someone that has had all of this explained to you many times I am shocked you still do not understand.


Thats because your delusional mind has forced you to believe that using strawman arguments and points that nothing to back them will work in your favor.




The things you will do and the lengths you will go too to avoid answering the question. Even you cannot believe I maintained we evlolved from bushmen. I am now thinking you dont even know what they are. As you have been endlessly informed on pretty much every page we did not evolve from apes. You maintain your debateing skills have improved when the evidence in front of me shows you have the debating skills of a rock.


Well no its just that you believe that humans are actually apes, so I was a little scared to think about where the bushman fits in.




Listen. I would never take on the role as your teacher. What a thankless waste of time that would be. You came to this thread about explaining diversity we see today without refering to evolution and have taken a seat like a drunken vagrant yelling how wrong everyone is and ranting about little green men.
Well then in that case I would like to thank you for taking the time in sending me to all those links that only further proved evolution to be bunk.




And like the drunken vagrant most, no all of your rantings make no sense at all. What on earth are you rambling on about now?


The question was what forced us to adapt.



posted on Jan, 14 2012 @ 07:36 PM
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Originally posted by itsthetooth

Trial and error are not magic, that ability just appearing out of no where is.


All the mechanics for trial and error are readily found in Nature:

1. Molecules (DNA) able to copy themselves with a small probability of variation,
2. An environment that can favour some variations of DNA above others.

Now you say that any variety of life produced in this natural feedback loop is magic?


Originally posted by itsthetooth

Well even better, if a creator made us, who made the creator. I don't take either choice to the full idea, there must be another way we don't yet understand.


But you insist on a magical being that doesn't explain anything at all and therfore isn't necessary at all.


Originally posted by itsthetooth

That depends on how you look at it. If evolution was a bug, and we never see this bug, it is odd that it does exist, but not impossible.


I can show you your bug anytime. Evolution has been documented live multiple times.

On the other hand can you show me your Great Fairy in the Sky? can you make something appear out of thin air?


Originally posted by itsthetooth

I believe we were placed here from another planet.


What's the advantage of transfering the problem of our species somewhere else?

Why would that be a better explanation than the default, that we come from this planet?
edit on 14-1-2012 by Brasov because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 14 2012 @ 07:50 PM
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reply to post by colin42
 
Thank you for your honesty colin. Many would have just ignored my post, or copy/pasted something out of context in their ignorance.
I stumbled on an interesting article that you may want to consider.
There have been many claims thus far in this thread about how wonderful the "theory" is and how much it has helped in other fields of science. Yet..........

Additionally, I have queried biologists working in areas where one might have thought the Darwinian paradigm could guide research, such as the emergence of resistance to antibiotics and pesticides. Here, as elsewhere, I learned that evolutionary theory provides no guidance when it comes to choosing the experimental designs. Rather, after the breakthrough discoveries, it is brought in as a narrative gloss.
The essence of the theory of evolution is the hypothesis that historical diversity is the consequence of natural selection acting on variations. Regardless of the verity it holds for explaining biohistory, it offers no help to the experimenter--who is concerned, for example, with the goal of finding or synthesizing a new antibiotic, or how it can disable a disease-producing organism, what dosages are required and which individuals will not tolerate
it. Studying biohistory is, at best, an entertaining distraction from the goals of a working biologist.

www.forbes.com...
As I said it is and interesting read, check it out when you can.
Quad



posted on Jan, 14 2012 @ 08:06 PM
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reply to post by Brasov
 





All the mechanics for trial and error are readily found in Nature:

1. Molecules (DNA) able to copy themselves with a small probability of variation,
2. An environment that can favour some variations of DNA above others.

Now you say that any variety of life produced in this natural feedback loop is magic?


So then what your saying is that our signs of obvious redundant adaptation, is just natural. It's a weak example but we make shoes, mother nature fights back by giving us fungus, so we make socks. It's all normal is what your saying?

The need for calcium is apparently not available from our mothers teat, so we resort to processing cows milk by pasturizing, homogenizing and fortifing, packaging, shipping, refridgerating, all because its easier then taking milk from moms teat?




But you insist on a magical being that doesn't explain anything at all and therfore isn't necessary at all.


The gross simplicity of evolution does not explain how we have all of the life that we do, a creator does, but still with more questions.




I can show you your bug anytime. Evolution has been documented live multiple times.

On the other hand can you show me your Great Fairy in the Sky? can you make something appear out of thin air?
Lets see your bug of evolution and yes a good start on the great fairy in the sky would or could be the millions of photographs of ufos and other life that visit us. I'm sorry but I have no links that I prefer, you can just google. Probably the best is March 13th 1997 in Phoenix AZ.




What's the advantage of transfering the problem of our species somewhere else?

Why would that be a better explanation than the default, that we come from this planet?


Well according to Zecharia Sitchen, we became slaves to mine gold for god. There does seem to be a lot in his favor for this, and the bible concurs with parts of it too. Some people get frantic and say well aliens can do anything, like why would they need us to mine gold. The best answer I can give you is that its probably not a typical thing they have to do all the time. The reason was that the gold was needed to repair an athmosphere on another planet.



posted on Jan, 14 2012 @ 08:12 PM
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Originally posted by Quadrivium
reply to post by colin42
 
Thank you for your honesty colin. Many would have just ignored my post, or copy/pasted something out of context in their ignorance.
I stumbled on an interesting article that you may want to consider.
There have been many claims thus far in this thread about how wonderful the "theory" is and how much it has helped in other fields of science. Yet..........

Additionally, I have queried biologists working in areas where one might have thought the Darwinian paradigm could guide research, such as the emergence of resistance to antibiotics and pesticides. Here, as elsewhere, I learned that evolutionary theory provides no guidance when it comes to choosing the experimental designs. Rather, after the breakthrough discoveries, it is brought in as a narrative gloss.
The essence of the theory of evolution is the hypothesis that historical diversity is the consequence of natural selection acting on variations. Regardless of the verity it holds for explaining biohistory, it offers no help to the experimenter--who is concerned, for example, with the goal of finding or synthesizing a new antibiotic, or how it can disable a disease-producing organism, what dosages are required and which individuals will not tolerate
it. Studying biohistory is, at best, an entertaining distraction from the goals of a working biologist.

www.forbes.com...
As I said it is and interesting read, check it out when you can.
Quad



Is Mr. Skell an cryptocreationist or does he admit it in the open?

He argues Evolution is false because it can't be controlled to produce new antibiotics, which is as valid as pretending the weather doesn't exist because we can't produce a sunny day when we want it.
edit on 14-1-2012 by Brasov because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 14 2012 @ 08:16 PM
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Originally posted by itsthetooth

Well according to Zecharia Sitchen, we became slaves to mine gold for god.


Alright. I'm not talking to the right person, my mistake!



posted on Jan, 14 2012 @ 10:52 PM
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Originally posted by itsthetooth
reply to post by Barcs
 

Ok you must have sent me the wrong link, because I have allready pointed out that this site clearly states...
Evolution, the overarching concept that unifies the biological sciences, in fact embraces a plurality of theories and hypotheses.
www.talkorigins.org...

Seriously? You just proved you are a bot or terrible troll. Well at least I know.



The reason we have so much diversity is because our planet was at one time inhabited by many different races. It's even in the bible. At one point we even got into trouble mating with one specific race that god did not want us to. How many different ones, I don't know. There have been people shipped to this planet, and people shipped off of this planet, so its really hard to know. I have always felt that a good portion of the egyptians were shipped off this planet as well.

This is once again where the whole problem with gametic isolation might cease to exist. It's apparent from shared abilitys that the design of our creation was most likely allowing us to communicate together. No language needed, just telepathy. If its true, it could also be possible that there is no gametic isolation between us and them.


That's your way of providing scientific evidence? Referencing the bible?

Haha, I doubt this guy even believes what he's saying. He's probably just trying to get reactions out of people. Blatant dishonesty and close mind to anything that counters his worldview.


I've already answered to that but the appeal to magic is yours, not mine. Please explain why you believe trial and error is magical.

Because he's Itsthetooth and has clearly demonstrated undeniable proof of his theory, with statements such as

"evolution is like 1000 tornadoes going through a junkyard and assembling a 747"

I think he just needs to work a little harder on the comedy routine. Admittedly, I have gotten a good amount of laughs out of this thread.
edit on 14-1-2012 by Barcs because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 15 2012 @ 03:13 AM
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reply to post by itsthetooth
 



Well if that was your goal, you epically failed, because the only thing you have taught me is just how wrong evolution is, based on the links you provided.
You really do have a problem holding onto reality even in your ability or lack of to read what is writen. I wrote


Listen. I would never take on the role as your teacher.
So how have you in your deluded state come up with I want to be your teacher???????????. This does explain why every link you have ever been sent you maintain tells nothing or confirms your aliens is because even if you read them your eyes see the words and your muddled brain makes up what they say.


Thats because your delusional mind has forced you to believe that using strawman arguments and points that nothing to back them will work in your favor.
What a pudding


Well no its just that you believe that humans are actually apes, so I was a little scared to think about where the bushman fits in.
What a pathetic excuse once again refusing to answer the questions and now unless proved different I actually believe you have no idea what a bushman is do you?


Well then in that case I would like to thank you for taking the time in sending me to all those links that only further proved evolution to be bunk.
Again you have shown a complete inability to read what is on the page without making up a fantasy of what you believe was written. I have supplied you with very few links, you are not worth it. My estimate is no more than four. All of which you ignored includeing the one I actually put into the body of the posts showing we have the same amount of hair as chimpanzee's in response to another uninformed, incorrect rant from you. Which yet again you have ignored.


The question was what forced us to adapt.
My descrpton of you was as an unwanted drunken vagrant, ranting in the corner and yelling out warnings of aliens. That still stands more than ever.


edit on 15-1-2012 by colin42 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 15 2012 @ 04:19 AM
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Originally posted by Quadrivium
Hello again,
The dog is still chasing his tail I see

Anyway, I was thinking, it seems that many on here, who think they know all about the theory of evolution, are really clueless to some of it's more questionable aspects.
Does evolution really explain "diversity" in complex groups of animals?
I asked several times for someone to give a "compelling" answer to how the DNA code evolved.
No answer as of yet.
With out fully understanding DNA, how can evolution possibly explain diversity to a critical thinking person?
All I can find on the subject is a lot of assumptions and speculation.
Scientists originally thought that breaking the DNA Code would solve many of the problems with the theory of evolution, yet it has added to them.
Why?

I found this article interesting. It's from Science magazine (1999)

Summary When full DNA sequences opened the way to comparing many different genes in different organisms, the comparisons proved confounding. Rather than clarifying the tree that seeks to show how life evolved, they often produced new trees that differ from the traditional tree and conflict with each other as well. Now some microbiologists, pointing to evidence that microbes have swapped genes wantonly over evolutionary history, say that many of these genes are an unreliable guide to evolutionary history and the old tree is still
basically sound. But others think it's time to uproot the old tree and are proposing candidates for new trees based on specific features of the genome and cell structure. And still others worry that gene swapping has
turned the tree of life into a tangled briar whose lineages will be next to impossible to discern.

m.sciencemag.org...
Quad

You have answered your own question. Diversity of life on this planet is ELOVUTION at work. That is the whole point of evolution that the natural development of any creature including all ancestors of man...were changes driven by enviroment and the ability of the most capable to survive to pass along it's traits in it's DNA during reproduction.
We have many species of animals since their enviroment dictated what traits were favorable for survival thus these trits were passed on. This is seen all over the globe as animals that exist in a static enviromental condition...where change is not necessary since they have everything they need to survive without change...such as sharks and Crocodiles....they have evolved to the poit where they can survive as they are.

In the cases where enviroment has changed to a point that only certain animals that carry a trait that allows survival....the ones that do not survive do not bread thus do not pass along this desired trait. Split Infinity



posted on Jan, 15 2012 @ 07:12 AM
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reply to post by SplitInfinity
 

Split,
I know what evolution is.
But I don't take it past the point of adaptation.
Let's take origins out of the picture for a moment.
So, at some point in history, we have different groups of animals on the earth, as they spread out and compete, they adapt.
Yes, that's part of the "theory" but to me that's just adaptation. I drop all of the assumptions associated with the "theory".
You mentioned sharks and crocs. They has been basically the same since they showed up in the fossil record. They might have moved and adapted, creating knew species of crocs and sharks but using the "theory", from what did they evolve?
All life on earth have basically the same building blocks, DNA.
You might say that proves evolution true, it shows we all came from LUCA.
But I say it is because we were all Created using the same building blocks, language or DNA also know as DNA.
Quad



posted on Jan, 15 2012 @ 09:05 AM
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reply to post by itsthetooth
 


Seriously....? you'replanning to jump back 100 pages and start all that milk for calcium nonsense?

Brasov, do yourself a favour and read from about page 60. Its about then that tooth started to change the opinions that he (she?) is about to start spouting. From "we need cows milk blah blah blah" to "i never said we cant survive without milk"

Sorry colin I had to do it, link to flagellum below,

www.newscientist.com...

BTW tooth, as a teacher myself, I can inform you that the modern way of thinking regarding teaching places joint resposibility for learning equally with the teacher and the student. You are being provided with the opportunity to learn, reasearch is being carried out on your behalf to allow you more time to think about the information that is displayed. It is no one elses fault but yours, when all of this work is being done for you, if you remain ignorant.

Tooth has presented an alternative Pan galactic castaway / penal colony, whatever, that he seems to believe in 100%. Thats fine, however this thread has now become can you prove tooths theory or evolution correct.

I have a suggestion. to tooth, stick to the thread, stop trying to push your fantasy, if you have evidence/proof of evolution being wrong present it, if not, then you have nothing more to say relating to this thread. If you want to start a thread where people can attempt to prove your theory incorrect go ahead and do it.

I will state again, with reference to the title of this thread. the answer so far is no, No one has presented evidence to even suggest that the theory (scientific) of evolution is wrong.



posted on Jan, 15 2012 @ 10:41 AM
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Originally posted by Quadrivium
reply to post by SplitInfinity
 

Split,
I know what evolution is.
But I don't take it past the point of adaptation.
Let's take origins out of the picture for a moment.
So, at some point in history, we have different groups of animals on the earth, as they spread out and compete, they adapt.
Yes, that's part of the "theory" but to me that's just adaptation. I drop all of the assumptions associated with the "theory".
You mentioned sharks and crocs. They has been basically the same since they showed up in the fossil record. They might have moved and adapted, creating knew species of crocs and sharks but using the "theory", from what did they evolve?
All life on earth have basically the same building blocks, DNA.
You might say that proves evolution true, it shows we all came from LUCA.
But I say it is because we were all Created using the same building blocks, language or DNA also know as DNA.
Quad dw


So do you deny that genetic mutations happen, even though they've been observed in a lab and nature? If you don't take it past the point of adaptation, that seems like the only option, unless you are trying to come up with an alternate version of evolution, but again, if that's the case, its on you to show evidence of this. Also you misunderstand the fact that organisms do not HAVE to change. If their respective environments do not change significantly, you won't see that much change in their development over the years, such with sharks and crocodiles. They have been perfectly fine for their environments.



posted on Jan, 15 2012 @ 11:10 AM
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reply to post by Barcs
 





Seriously? You just proved you are a bot or terrible troll. Well at least I know.
No your just not understanding how my answer doesn't change. Fact is fact.




That's your way of providing scientific evidence? Referencing the bible?

Haha, I doubt this guy even believes what he's saying. He's probably just trying to get reactions out of people. Blatant dishonesty and close mind to anything that counters his worldview


I see, so what you mean to say is that anything that happened in the bible couldn't possibly be true.




Because he's Itsthetooth and has clearly demonstrated undeniable proof of his theory, with statements such as

"evolution is like 1000 tornadoes going through a junkyard and assembling a 747"

I think he just needs to work a little harder on the comedy routine. Admittedly, I have gotten a good amount of laughs out of this thread.
It's not my analoge but one that got repeated many times from different sites.



posted on Jan, 15 2012 @ 11:21 AM
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reply to post by Barcs
 

Sorry Barcs but your post makes little since to me.
Usefull genetic mutations help one adapt to their environment. I don't understand why you said ......


So do you deny that genetic mutations happen, even though they've been observed in a lab and nature? If you don't take it past the point of adaptation, that seems like the only option, unless you are trying to come up with an alternate version of evolution, but again, if that's the case, its on you to show evidence of this.

Please explain why denying genetic mutations should be the only option if I don't take the "theory" past adaptation.
I do not deny mutations. That's how " we" adapt.



posted on Jan, 15 2012 @ 11:22 AM
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reply to post by colin42
 





You really do have a problem holding onto reality even in your ability or lack of to read what is writen. I wrote


Seriously you have done nothing but contradict my questions by answering incorrectly then turn around and say you have provided answers.




So how have you in your deluded state come up with I want to be your teacher???????????. This does explain why every link you have ever been sent you maintain tells nothing or confirms your aliens is because even if you read them your eyes see the words and your muddled brain makes up what they say.
Well then, here is a link you MUST read...
gspcsermons.blogspot.com...
We have clear documentation in writtin that earth is NOT our home, and still you brew in putting your arm around an ape. You need to pull you head out.




Thats because your delusional mind has forced you to believe that using strawman arguments and points that nothing to back them will work in your favor.

What a pudding


See here is another example, pudding doesn't cut it.




Well no its just that you believe that humans are actually apes, so I was a little scared to think about where the bushman fits in.

What a pathetic excuse once again refusing to answer the questions and now unless proved different I actually believe you have no idea what a bushman is do you?


Ya its someone that lives in the wild and doesn't enguage in all the things we do as a society.




Again you have shown a complete inability to read what is on the page without making up a fantasy of what you believe was written. I have supplied you with very few links, you are not worth it. My estimate is no more than four. All of which you ignored includeing the one I actually put into the body of the posts showing we have the same amount of hair as chimpanzee's in response to another uninformed, incorrect rant from you. Which yet again you have ignored.


Fantasy? Are you blind? I was actually quoting the site.




My descrpton of you was as an unwanted drunken vagrant, ranting in the corner and yelling out warnings of aliens. That still stands more than ever.


And you think that you standing on the same corner yelling out that apes are your brothers, is any different?



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