The vedic civilization and evolution of society in India

Please remember

Everybody has to face result of good and bad deeds.
Good luck is due to good deeds and bad luck is due to bad deeds.

If you die without getting results of good deeds, you will get that in subsequent life (lives).
If you die without getting results of bad deeds, you will get that in subsequent life (lives).

People die before getting results of good/bad deeds due to limited lifespan given by God.

When you get the result of good/bad deeds is upto God. Nobody knows but God, but it is definite.

God does not forgive or forget. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

.....

Originally posted by vedatruth

 

Many people in India and Tibet practice 'Tantra'. I am no expert in this, so I cannot explain. Vedic people are prohibited from learning / using such practices.

All I can say is they use chemicals to induce dream state, in which a person 'sees' what is suggested by the 'performer'.

Thanks for this thread. I haven't read it all but if I have time I will read further. I thought I might respond to this particular post though.

I have been practising Vajrayana Buddhism, popularly known as "Tibetan" Buddhism since 1976. There is no use of chemicals to induce a dream state in Vajrayana Buddhism, at least not in the orthodox practice of tantric Buddhism.

There are mind to mind transmissions that take place, but these are not "suggestions".

People think of tantra a lot of times in terms of what in Tibetan is called "yab yum" meditation, i.e., meditation in sexual union with a consort, but the true meaning of tantra derives from the Sanskrit word for "thread" in the sense of continuity. I'm not a Sanskrit scholar, but that is what I was given to understand.

Vedic thought seems to offer a comprehensive way of life. Tantric, one might say "continuous", Buddhism is a technique of meditation applied to life, however it may be being lived.

Vedic religion is the ONLY true religion

All other religions are creeds - started by some human at some point in time. A belief started by a human is subject to death just as a human is subject to death.

No human has started Vedic religion and no human has the power to end it. Only thing that changes is number of followers which goes up and down.

Vedic religion is universal - applicable to ALL humans residing on planets other than Earth.

God has given the knowledge of Veda to all races of humans initially. Some have forgotten that knowledge due to catastrophes or isolation. But each soul is inherently capable to learn Veda. All a soul needs to do is follow 5 rules of 'yama' to avoid sins for a period of time (minimum five years).

There has been a loss of Vedic knowledge in Bharat due to Kings straying from true path, and giving shelter to anti-Vedic preachers. The Kings are gone now - after suffering repeatedly for their follies. Even the public will realize the futility of anti-Vedic beliefs with time.

Originally posted by ipsedixit

Originally posted by vedatruth

 

Many people in India and Tibet practice 'Tantra'. I am no expert in this, so I cannot explain. Vedic people are prohibited from learning / using such practices.

All I can say is they use chemicals to induce dream state, in which a person 'sees' what is suggested by the 'performer'.

Thanks for this thread. I haven't read it all but if I have time I will read further. I thought I might respond to this particular post though.

I have been practising Vajrayana Buddhism, popularly known as "Tibetan" Buddhism since 1976. There is no use of chemicals to induce a dream state in Vajrayana Buddhism, at least not in the orthodox practice of tantric Buddhism.

There are mind to mind transmissions that take place, but these are not "suggestions".

People think of tantra a lot of times in terms of what in Tibetan is called "yab yum" meditation, i.e., meditation in sexual union with a consort, but the true meaning of tantra derives from the Sanskrit word for "thread" in the sense of continuity. I'm not a Sanskrit scholar, but that is what I was given to understand.

Vedic thought seems to offer a comprehensive way of life. Tantric, one might say "continuous", Buddhism is a technique of meditation applied to life, however it may be being lived.

edit on 25-10-2011 by ipsedixit because: (no reason given)

The hallucinogenic chemicals are burnt in incense as per my understanding.

The burning of incense is part of 'tantrik' rituals.

I believe (and I cannot prove to you) that original teachings of Buddha did not incorporate practices followed by Tibetan Buddhists.

The 'samidha' used in Vedic rituals does not have any such substance. It has wood chips or dried cow dung, dried flowers, food grains, dried fruits, etc, and herbs.

Originally posted by vedatruth
The hallucinogenic chemicals are burnt in incense as per my understanding.

I think someone has been pulling your leg. This doesn't happen. I've heard of abuse of alcohol by tantric masters and ganja being smoked by hindu yogis but this incense procedure is unknown to me.

The burning of incense is part of 'tantrik' rituals.

This is true. Personally, I find it annoying, but it is true.

I believe (and I cannot prove to you) that original teachings of Buddha did not incorporate practices followed by Tibetan Buddhists.

I believe this is also true. Personally, I believe that the teachings of the Buddha, insofar as they are known, are contained in the Tripitaka. Everything else is either commentary, or later additions. That puts me at odds with my Vajrayana friends, but I have good reasons for believing as I do.

The Buddha said that what he had given his followers was "but a handful of leaves". That is the Tripitaka. In the centuries since his passing, Buddhists have gathered bushel baskets of leaves and are still gathering them.

The 'samidha' used in Vedic rituals does not have any such substance. It has wood chips or dried cow dung, dried flowers, food grains, dried fruits, etc, and herbs.

Our incense is like that too.

reply to post by ipsedixit


OK. I stand corrected then. But you should explore it bit more. I shall too.

The mind-to-mind communication that you wrote about is prefectly common in the world of Yogis. The Yogi can communicate at considerable distances using this method.

The 'sadhus' that smoke ganja are misguided people. Veda is completely against drugs and alcohol. In fact Vedic people did not even take medicine containing alcohol. Most medicines are prepared fresh just before being given to the sick.

The control of Indriya means control of all base desires. It is very difficult but progress in Yoga is not possible without it.

Originally posted by vedatruth
OK. I stand corrected then. But you should explore it bit more. I shall too.

Thirty-five years as a "tantric" Buddhist and I've never heard of this business with the incense, until now.

The mind-to-mind communication that you wrote about is prefectly common in the world of Yogis. The Yogi can communicate at considerable distances using this method.

All the way around the world, actually. From one side of the globe to the other, out of line of sight and no satellites required.

The 'sadhus' that smoke ganja are misguided people. Veda is completely against drugs and alcohol. In fact Vedic people did not even take medicine containing alcohol. Most medicines are prepared fresh just before being given to the sick.

People who know how to meditate require no "substances" as aids.

The control of Indriya means control of all base desires. It is very difficult but progress in Yoga is not possible without it.

Control is the key word in Vajrayana, not stifle or suppress. Disarm.

reply to post by ipsedixit


www.changetheclimate.org...

"Sexual cannabis use which transcended hedonism and medicine rose up in an esoteric Hindu-Buddhist tradition known as Tantra, a mystical religion which prescribes physical and mental exercises like meditation and yoga. These practices are intended to help the practicioner escape suffering and achieve enlightenment and perfection, known as Nirvana.

Advanced Tantra marijuana rituals were intense, complex and difficult. Researchers have uncovered sacred texts describing cannabis rituals, but doubt that modern Tantra practitioners still engage in such activities.

....

Tantra cannabis rituals date back at least to 700 AD, and involved groups of "purified" male and female worshippers who engaged in fasting, chanting, prayer, ceremonial purifications, Kundalini yoga, and sexual union, subjecting body and spirit to excruciating and ecstatic ordeals. Concentration, consecration and transformation were the goals of such rituals, which were conducted in temples festooned with thousands of flowers, clouds of incense smoke, and flickering temple lamps."

reply to post by ipsedixit


I am a frequent traveller to Dharamshala (HP) though I do not go to Buddhist temples. Local people of Dharamshala know a lot about Tibetans as kids there have gone to school with Tebetan kids, and there are a lot of social contacts between Tibetans and non-Tibetans.

The problem is some cults/creeds are very secretive about their practices, while Vedic customs are widely known, and is available to every practitioner.

As I said earlier, I do no participate in Tibetan rituals, and I have no desire to do so. If you do what you say, it is very good.

reply to post by vedatruth

People can get up to anything. I would be the last one to deny that, but despite what your very questionable source has to say, I reiterate that "substance use or abuse" has no part in Vajrayana practice.

I've never heard of a Buddhist text referring to the use of cannibis although some tantric texts have word codes in them that were sometimes taken literally by unsophisticated practitioners.

In Tibet Vajrayana did have its "wild west" incidents, but as with like occurrences in other religions, these were not typical of Buddhist practice.

Alcohol is used in Vajrayana rituals, come to think of it, but in such small quantities that it has taken this long in the discussion for it to even enter my mind. Some special pujas include consumption of very small amounts of beer, in my experience, at most maybe a small glass of beer . . .six ounces in a little plastic glass.

There is a reason for using alcohol in the puja but intoxication is not the reason. My own guru just dips a finger in it and tastes it. The taste is the important thing, not the production of a mental effect.

Secrecy is important in Vajrayana practice because safe practice requires very careful preparation.

reply to post by ipsedixit


Can you tell me the ingredients for incense made for tantric practices?

I can see that Tibetans use many types of incense. The question is which one is used in tantra.

I am not questioning what you do? I am happy that you have taken the time to read this thread. I am very willing to learn from you, and change my viewpoint.

One thing I can tell you is Buddhism is about 'Ahinsaa' - vegetarianism. Tibetan Buddhist do not follow it. So I have doubts if Tibetans can call themselves followers of Buddha.

Snow covered mountains of central India - KishkindhaKaand 32/12

Sugriv says to Shatbali - "Go north to the land of snow-covered mountains, and search all paths for respectable wife of Shri Rama"

This land of snow-covered mountains is not Himalayas. People get confused by matching current geography with Ramayan time. This land is central India. The Vanars lived too far south of Himalayas, and there is no logic of looking for Sita beyond Jansthan, the last strong-point of Ravann.

Central India must have been the land of high mountains - high enough for year round snow, plenty of rivers and deep forests. The southern part of these mountains was home of the Vanars. The likely location of Kishkindha in today's world is north Andhra (Karimnagar).

March of Vanar Army

Start of search of Sita - beginning of month of Kartik (next day after Deepawali)

Time taken for the search - more than one month - let us say 40 days

Start of marching of Vanar army - Uttar Falguni nakshatra - roughly middle of December

The march of army, construction of bridge, till the conclusion of war - 3 months to middle of March

March should be the month when Shri Rama returned to Ayodhya.

The distance that the army marched was more than 1000 kilometers from Kishkindha. It was an army of foot-soldiers. The army went through dense tropical forests right till the beach-head, where it had to stop for considerable time to cross the sea. The bridge construction would have taken a month to complete. The actual war would have been a few days only. Most of the time was spent in marching. I take 6 yojan or 48 km. as the daily advance of the army.

Only a few Vanars and Richchs returned back from Lanka with Shri Rama. Almost all the Vanars and Richch soldiers perished.

Originally posted by vedatruth
reply to post by ipsedixit

 

Can you tell me the ingredients for incense made for tantric practices?

Personally, I can't, but ingredients are usually on the box. Tibetan made incense sticks are usually fairly long, 35 cm. approximately and 3 or 4 mm. thick. There is nothing intoxicating about them. The ingredients are innocuous. Indian incense, with its different aromas and smaller format has influenced Tibetan production, though, and one does find Tibetan made incense in similar aromas and formats.

Tibetans also have burned tamarack twigs for their aromatic properties. Tamarack berries are used to make gin, but burning the twigs does nothing intoxicating. It just smells nice.

I can see that Tibetans use many types of incense. The question is which one is used in tantra.

In the Tibetan context, everything is tantra. Tantra refers to continuity, across the board.

Vajrayanists, particularly Tibetans, take a tantric outlook on everything. This view is not shared by all Buddhists, of course, and even Vajrayanists will differentiate so-called hinayana and mahayana orientations from vajrayana, but from the strict vajrayana point of view these orientations are all conceptually centered on the teachings of the Buddha and simply increase in the scope of their activity, culminating in Vajrayana . . . according to vajrayanists.

The only special incense, used in "tantric" rituals that I am aware of is frankincense, which is a gum of a tree, I believe. It is a strong smelling incense and there are varients of it which are very strong and foul smelling. There are reasons for the use of this incense but it doesn't produce intoxication and isn't intended to do so.

I am not questioning what you do? I am happy that you have taken the time to read this thread. I am very willing to learn from you, and change my viewpoint.

I appreciate that attitude.

One thing I can tell you is Buddhism is about 'Ahinsaa' - vegetarianism. Tibetan Buddhist do not follow it. So I have doubts if Tibetans can call themselves followers of Buddha.

You have hit on an interesting point. I am not aware of dietary restrictions set forth by the Buddha, except in the case of monks, who are not supposed to eat later than midday. The Buddha is said to have died from eating tainted pork, so perhaps he was not a vegetarian himself.

Buddhists are not supposed to kill anything. The Tibetan practice is to pay non-Buddhists to be butchers. In Tibet, it is my understanding that many butchers are Muslims. Tibetans don't see a problem with this.

It is very important, when talking about Buddhist practice to realize that the Buddha was not a doctrinaire ideologue who exerted power over others. What he did was to tell people what to do in order to realize what he had realized. He himself compared his teaching to a boat which one uses to cross a river.

After crossing the river, it is not necessary to carry the boat along on one's back.

There is an air of practicality about the Buddha's teaching, an air of compromise. There are strict, sour puss, authoritarian Buddhists in the world, but the practice tends to guide one away from such extremes.

The Buddha achieved enlightenment only after having abandoned austerities. In Tibet, with their climate, vegetarianism would be very difficult. In India, there are Tibetan vegetarians but most Tibetans follow their community's traditional eating habits.

However, karma is karma. Nagarjuna is said to have had his throat cut by a sharp blade of elephant grass because he had trodden down a leaf of grass. There are lots of stories of all kinds.

reply to post by ipsedixit


It does not matter who kills. The one who eats gets the most sin.

The King is the cause of war but does not fight. Who gets the sins of killing innocents in the war - the king.

God is not a fool. If you think so, you are seriously mistaken.

The story I read in my childhood is different from the one you recounted. The story that I read was Gautam Buddha was offered non-vegetarian food by a prostitute which he ate and then gave up his life in repentance.

The Jainism and Buddhism started at a time when Vedic religion had already declined. So the society was like a religion-less society. The caste system was there due to ignorance. Even Brahmins became ignorant due to loss of continuity of Vedic education.

There are two type of Rishi - one who renounce the world and live in forests, the other who come back to the society to teach. The Rishi teach only if the society is willing to learn. There are times when Rishi do not come to the society, as society has become deeply ignorant. One look at five rules of Yama are enough to tell anybody how difficult it is to follow Vedic dharm.

I did not start this thread to denounce Budhism. There is time and place for everything. Budha did a great service by speaking against casteism. Budha was right that bathing in river does not wash any sins. Bathing is only to keep body clean, which is important to be healthy.

We've probably had enough of Buddhism in this thread. I was simply intending to respond to your ideas of the use of incense by tantric buddhists. The history of Buddhist practice and theory is long and complicated. To really understand it requires a great deal of study.

Ultimately though, Buddhism is about a realization and about the consequences which flow from it.

Thanks for your patience. I look forward to reading more about Vedic civilization.

As far as Tibet being unsuitable for vegetarians - Arya left Tibet due to climate change.

Mongoloid are not the original inhabitants of Tibet, it is people of Bharat.

God did not ask anybody to live in a desert. A human is free to live in a place where he can farm and produce grains.

Veda says very clearly - it is preferable to die than to compromise. If you cannot get vegetarian food, better give up your life or migrate to a place where you can get. Why? Because soul does not die with body. A pious soul gets another human life and another chance to worship God. A sinner NEVER gets a human life. So it is better not to compromise.

reply to post by vedatruth

You seem to be determined to press for a conviction. Buddhism is really about a realization, that's all. It moves from the human mind outward. I don't want to be provocative but God doesn't really figure in the story of Buddhism.