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Am i the only one who supports Israel

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posted on Sep, 21 2011 @ 11:09 AM
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reply to post by Immune
 


The failure in your logic is that you assume they should be there. They are only attacked because everyone with a sane mind understands that you can't move somewhere and say "this is ours now, leave because we say so".

There were people living there BEFORE World War 2 (which was the main reason they got there in the first place).

You can't judge a consequence without judging the cause.

Israel has problems because they are occupying a place that isn't theirs. The problem is that they fuel the whole discussion with the religious crap, about them being the selected people by god himself to live there.

That makes as much sense as saying someone can move inside your house, kick you out, kill your family, just because a god in which you don't believe in the same way that person does, told him he has the right to do that.

For Israelis to defend Israel, is one thing. It's their "country", their "nation". But another thing is to defend Israel while not being a israeli. That's just lack of understanding the problem.

Sure, the jews were victims of terrible acts during WW2, but they are not the only ones. Never were. There are so many cases of genocide and atrocities against people it's not even funny to think about it. And furthermore, being a victim doesn't give you the right to turn other people into victims.




posted on Sep, 21 2011 @ 11:13 AM
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reply to post by beezzer
 


I am a conservative independent and I do not support Israel at all.

They can work for their own survival just like we are trying to do. If Israel could give the U.S. Billions of dollars for a few decades that would be nice.



posted on Sep, 21 2011 @ 11:14 AM
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I was wondering if anyone could refer me to some books regarding the original inhabitants of the land now known as Israel. I was under the impression that that particular piece of land was co-habitated by many groups of semitic peoples, not just the Hebrews (Israelites, Judeans, & Samaritans). I am in debate with my sister due to the fact that she believes the Jews have a right to return to their original homeland based on their settling of that area first and because of biblical justifications (both of which I consider erroneous).

I noticed that OpioidFrued mentioned that there was archaeological and anthropological evidence to support the claim that jews were in fact not the first (or at least only) group of people to settle in that area. I realize that any western civilization textbook would be enough to prove my case, but like many of you I REALLY want to drive this point home.

Thanks in advance for any help, and remember, there is no totally right or wrong answer for any controversial issue.



posted on Sep, 21 2011 @ 11:16 AM
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reply to post by gravitational
 


Really it is a surprise to you that I would take the word of people who were actually there??? I guess first hand accounts don't matter do they? The ignorance is astounding here, looks as if the IDF is in full force here......



posted on Sep, 21 2011 @ 11:32 AM
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reply to post by jheated5
 


Please spare me the “IDF is in full force here” BS and save it for someone else.

Truth hurts doesn't it? Is that why you couldn't bring yourself to read at least some of the material?

I'm done talking to the ignorant person that you are.



posted on Sep, 21 2011 @ 11:34 AM
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In a word --no.

But you should be.

That would make you special too.



posted on Sep, 21 2011 @ 11:39 AM
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For the record, the UN has established the territorial boundaries for many sovereign nations in the past, so Israel didn't illegally seize anyone's land. Furthermore, in 1948, the UN initially proposed a 2 state solution which the jews accepted and the arabs declined. The current Palestinian refugees are actually former residents of Palestine that were advised by arab authorities to leave the region, in advance of the coordinated attack of multiple arab countries in the 1948 War Of Independence. The refugees were assured by arab authorities that they would return to their homes once Israel was defeated. Well, Israel won the war, and the rest is history. Since then, Israel has annexed more land as a result of emerging victorious in several wars in which they were provoked and outnumbered, and yet they still persevered. Any attempts by Israel to give back occupied territory has backfired, resulting in Palestinians using the land that was given back to them as a launching pad for terrorist attacks against innocent Isreali citizens.

These are the facts. Whether people can accept the truth or not is up to them.
edit on 21-9-2011 by Humanity4Ever because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 21 2011 @ 11:42 AM
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Originally posted by HotCopperSkull
I was wondering if anyone could refer me to some books regarding the original inhabitants of the land now known as Israel. I was under the impression that that particular piece of land was co-habitated by many groups of semitic peoples, not just the Hebrews (Israelites, Judeans, & Samaritans). I am in debate with my sister due to the fact that she believes the Jews have a right to return to their original homeland based on their settling of that area first and because of biblical justifications (both of which I consider erroneous).

I noticed that OpioidFrued mentioned that there was archaeological and anthropological evidence to support the claim that jews were in fact not the first (or at least only) group of people to settle in that area. I realize that any western civilization textbook would be enough to prove my case, but like many of you I REALLY want to drive this point home.

Thanks in advance for any help, and remember, there is no totally right or wrong answer for any controversial issue.


Read the early books of the Old Testament of the Bible. It says that after the Israelites left Egypt, they wandered in the wilderness for 40 years. Then God led them to the promised land where, with God's blessings, they massacred most of the inhabitants and made it their own land. I don't know whether there is any archaeological or historical evidence to back that up.



posted on Sep, 21 2011 @ 11:43 AM
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i will try to say this very carefully.......

first of all, the jewish people aren't the only "israelites", in fact, the jewish people of today aren't even "israelites", hence the reason they just call them selves "israeli", not israelite....and the jewish almanac, states this:


(1980 Jewish Almanac, p. 3).

"Strictly speaking it is incorrect to call an ancient Israelite a ‘Jew’ or to call a contemporary Jew an Israelite or a Hebrew."
.

they are from the line of askhenz, that's why they call them selves ashkenazis and they converted to judaism around the 1400's. they were know as khazaria, which was located between poland and russia.........


Encyclopedia Americana (1985):

"Khazar, an ancient Turkic speaking people who ruled a large and powerful state in the steppes North of the Caucasus Mountains from the 7th century to their demise in the mid 11th century A.D... In the 8th Century it's political and religious head... as well as the greater part of the Khazar nobility, abandoned paganism and converted to Judaism... (The Khazars are believed to be the ancestors of most Russian and Eastern European Jews)."


Encyclopedia Britannica (15th edition):

"Khazars, confederation of Turkic and Iranian tribes that established a major commercial empire in the second half of the 6th century, covering the southeastern section of modern European Russia... In the middle of the 8th century the ruling classes adopted Judaism as their religion."


Academic American Encyclopedia (1985):

"Ashkenazim, the Ashkenazim are one of the two major divisions of the Jews, the other being the Shephardim."


Encyclopedia Americana (1985):

"Ashkenazim, the Ashkenazim are the Jews whose ancestors lived in German lands...it was among Ashkenazi Jews that the idea of political Zionism emerged, leading ultimately to the establishment of the state of Israel... In the late 1960s, Ashkenazi Jews numbered some 11 million, about 84 percent of the world Jewish population."


The Jewish Encyclopedia:

"Khazars, a non-Semitic, Asiatic, Mongolian tribal nation who emigrated into Eastern Europe about the first century, who were converted as an entire nation to Judaism in the seventh century by the expanding Russian nation which absorbed the entire Khazar population, and who account for the presence in Eastern Europe of the great numbers of Yiddish-speaking Jews in Russia, Poland, Lithuania, Galatia, Besserabia and Rumania."


The Encyclopedia Judaica (1972):

"Khazars, a national group of general Turkic type, independent and sovereign in Eastern Europe between the seventh and tenth centuries C.E. During part of this time the leading Khazars professed Judaism... In spite of the negligible information of an archaeological nature, the presence of Jewish groups and the impact of Jewish ideas in Eastern Europe are considerable during the Middle Ages. Groups have been mentioned as migrating to Central Europe from the East often have been referred to as Khazars, thus making it impossible to overlook the possibility that they originated from within the former Khazar Empire."


The Universal Jewish Encyclopedia:

"The primary meaning of Ashkenaz and Ashkenazim in Hebrew is Germany and Germans. This may be due to the fact that the home of the ancient ancestors of the Germans is Media, which is the Biblical Ashkenaz... Krauss is of the opinion that in the early medieval ages the Khazars were sometimes referred to as Ashkenazim... About 92 percent of all Jews or approximately 14,500,000 are Ashkenazim."


New Grolier Encyclopedia:

Khazars [kah'z-ars] The Khazars, a Turkic people, created a commercial and political empire that dominated substantial parts of South Russia during much of the 7th through 10th centuries. During the 8th century the Khazar aristocracy and the kagan (king) were converted to Judaism. The Khazars established their capital at Itil (or Atil), in the Volga delta, and for four centuries thereafter this Jewish empire held the balance of power between the Christian Byzantine Empire and the Muslim Caliphate. The fortified Khazar city of Sarkil on the lower Don River was built with Byzantine help and served as a crossroads to central Asia. The Khazars controlled many of the trade routes to the Orient; some of the Radhanites (Jewish merchants from Gaul), for example, were accustomed to crossing the Khazar empire while traveling to and from China and India. During the late 10th and early 11th centuries an alliance of Byzantines and Russians broke the power of the Khazars in the Crimea. In 965, Svyatoslav I, duke of Kiev, decisively defeated the Khazar army. Further to the east new waves of Turkic invaders overran the remains of the Khazar state.


this is quoted from a book by benjamin freedman, who is jewish himself, called "facts are facts"

"Without a complete and accurate knowledge of the origin and history of the 'Jews' in Eastern Europe... it is quite impossible for [Christians] to intelligently understand the harmful influence the Jews have exerted for ten centuries...’

You will probably be astonished as many Christians were years ago when I electrified the nation with the first publication by me of the facts disclosed by my many years of research into the origin and the history of the 'Jews' in Eastern Europe. My many years of intensive research established beyond the question of any doubt, contrary to the generally accepted belief held by Christians, that the 'Jews' in Eastern Europe at any time in their history in Eastern Europe were never the legendary 'lost ten tribes' of Bible lore. That historic fact is incontrovertible.

Relentless research established as equally true that the 'Jews' in Eastern Europe at no time in their history could be correctly regarded as the direct lineal descendants of the legendary ‘lost ten tribes’ of Bible lore. The ‘Jews’ in Eastern Europe in modern history cannot legitimately point to a single ancient ancestor who ever set even a foot on the soil of Palestine in the era of Bible history.

Research also revealed that the 'Jews' in Eastern Europe were never ‘Semites,’ are not ‘Semites’ now, nor can they ever be regarded as ‘Semites’ at any future time by any stretch of the imagination. Exhaustive research also irrevocably rejects as a fantastic fabrication the generally accepted belief by Christians that the 'Jews' in Eastern Europe are the legendary 'Chosen People' so very vocally publicized by the Christian clergy from their pulpits..."



posted on Sep, 21 2011 @ 11:57 AM
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Originally posted by illuminatislave
Educate yourself. Israel is not a friend of ours. Ask Americans who lost family members aboard the USS Liberty how much Israel gives a damn about them.


I'm with you, there. I don't see how any current or former member of the US Navy can support Israel after the USS Liberty.



posted on Sep, 21 2011 @ 11:57 AM
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Originally posted by Tifozi
reply to post by Immune
 


The failure in your logic is that you assume they should be there. They are only attacked because everyone with a sane mind understands that you can't move somewhere and say "this is ours now, leave because we say so".

There were people living there BEFORE World War 2 (which was the main reason they got there in the first place).

You can't judge a consequence without judging the cause.

Israel has problems because they are occupying a place that isn't theirs. The problem is that they fuel the whole discussion with the religious crap, about them being the selected people by god himself to live there.

That makes as much sense as saying someone can move inside your house, kick you out, kill your family, just because a god in which you don't believe in the same way that person does, told him he has the right to do that.

For Israelis to defend Israel, is one thing. It's their "country", their "nation". But another thing is to defend Israel while not being a israeli. That's just lack of understanding the problem.

Sure, the jews were victims of terrible acts during WW2, but they are not the only ones. Never were. There are so many cases of genocide and atrocities against people it's not even funny to think about it. And furthermore, being a victim doesn't give you the right to turn other people into victims.


I have very little to add to this discussion. These discussions never end well and I find the Israeli issue to be exhausting. There is no middle ground from either side and when that happens progress is never made. Israel has every right to exist, but this refusal to compromise with anyone (the US included) will be their downfall. I find it difficult to understand how a people who were nearly wiped off the face of the earth can lack such perspective.

The global community is gowing tired of the whole Israel/Palestine feud and sooner or later the world will either turn it's back on them both or solve the issue for them. Tifozi's comment that "being a victim doesn't give you the right to turn other people into victims" is very true and is something both sides need to learn.

A friend once said to me many years ago "they should just blow the whole f'ing region up and be done with them". I didn't agree with him then, nor do I now, but I think this may be how this conflict ends.
edit on 21-9-2011 by Langerer because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 21 2011 @ 12:01 PM
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reply to post by Immune
 


I took a class on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and I graduated a history major. Basically, that last sentence was to show that I know what I'm talking about. Israel is a Western proxy state, just as Hizbollah is a proxy organization of Iran. The Israel that exists now isn't the Israel the original Zionists wanted it to be; especially the Socialist Zionists who wanted the Jews and Arabs- who both consider themselves descendants of the same person thus all one big incestuous cluster#, to build up Israel together for themselves, because neither the scattered Jews nor the oppressed Palestinians under the Ottomans had a place to call "their own" that they can truly profit from (this was during the rise of capitalism and when industrialization was in full-swing). Bee Tee Dubs, Israel was built by Socialism, and yet the US supported them during the Cold War..? Anyway, those "many men women and children" that are killed by "terrorists" number in the hundreds, maybe thousands. Israel has slaughtered MILLIONS of innocent Arabs in their retaliation attacks but hey, the UN doesn't call you a pariah state for nothing nowadays. The only reason Israel exists is/was because the United States is/was such a powerful country. Without the political and military pull of the United States, Israel would NEVER have acquired the weapons/defense systems/funding necessary to defend itself. The Arabs had to purchase weapons largely from the Soviet Union, and the rest were funneled around by Israel's neighbors; Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt. And finally, # biblical prophecy. The Australians have an entire #ing continent to themselves, and most of it is desert just like Israel. Jews would feel right at home exploiting the natives there too.



posted on Sep, 21 2011 @ 12:09 PM
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Originally posted by VictorVonDoom

Originally posted by illuminatislave
Educate yourself. Israel is not a friend of ours. Ask Americans who lost family members aboard the USS Liberty how much Israel gives a damn about them.


I'm with you, there. I don't see how any current or former member of the US Navy can support Israel after the USS Liberty.


The incident happened, but it was accidental, and the US government acknowledged it as such, or they most certainly would have responded accordingly. Why do anti Israel propogandists cling to this isolated incident like a lifeline to support their warped opinions of Israel? Are you also aware that friendly fire killed hundreds of American soldiers in the Vietnam War? The USS Liberty incident was a tragedy, but unfortunately, mistakes can occur during armed conflict. It's been nearly 45 years since the incident occured, and yet people still focus on it?



posted on Sep, 21 2011 @ 12:11 PM
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I'm not a fan of Israel but I believe it does contain the chosen people. Chosen by Satan. It appears to be the seat of power for a huge criminal organization. Always a zionist name attached to every scandal / crime in our society. Look at the Banking scandal, the "Fed", Look at who owns most of the media and the crap they produce for consumption. It always leads back to Israel. That doesn't mean I believe Jews are bad though. I think the zionist, neocons, and nwo camofladge themselves with the jewish faith.



posted on Sep, 21 2011 @ 12:19 PM
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Originally posted by Humanity4Ever

Originally posted by VictorVonDoom

Originally posted by illuminatislave
Educate yourself. Israel is not a friend of ours. Ask Americans who lost family members aboard the USS Liberty how much Israel gives a damn about them.


I'm with you, there. I don't see how any current or former member of the US Navy can support Israel after the USS Liberty.


The incident happened, but it was accidental, and the US government acknowledged it as such, or they most certainly would have responded accordingly. Why do anti Israel propogandists cling to this isolated incident like a lifeline to support their warped opinions of Israel? Are you also aware that friendly fire killed hundreds of American soldiers in the Vietnam War? The USS Liberty incident was a tragedy, but unfortunately, mistakes can occur during armed conflict. It's been nearly 45 years since the incident occured, and yet people still focus on it?



the so called "holocaust" was over 60 years ago, yet people are still focusing on it too, so what's the difference?



posted on Sep, 21 2011 @ 12:26 PM
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reply to post by Immune
 


I feel for the innocents who suffer there because of there government but I don't feel bad for the government in Israel at all. My attitude towards the Wars they endured was that the UN had no business giving territory that didn't belong to a people to them. The way the land was occupied and the lack of full on diplomacy and the behavior of the interim Israeli government in that transitional phase is a lot of why Israel suffers today. There are so many things I could point out as to why I dislike the Israeli government. It's not the Israeli people in general I have issue with at all. If the UN was good enough for the Israelis then it's good enough for the Palestinians. There are large numbers of Israelis and Palestinians who want peace but the Israeli Government and Palestinian Authorities need to get there act together and learn to live with one another. The religious and culture bickering is as ancient as time itself almost for humankind and it's time to grow past it. Everyone needs healing and killing each other just worsens that goal.
edit on 21-9-2011 by Flint2011 because: Typos



posted on Sep, 21 2011 @ 12:26 PM
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Originally posted by VictorVonDoom

Originally posted by illuminatislave
Educate yourself. Israel is not a friend of ours. Ask Americans who lost family members aboard the USS Liberty how much Israel gives a damn about them.


I'm with you, there. I don't see how any current or former member of the US Navy can support Israel after the USS Liberty.


One "odd" thing of note concerning the "accidental" attack on the Liberty which was flying a large American flag.

They fired on the lifeboats. No body fires on lifeboats.

This was not done by either side during WW II and would have been labled a war crime if they had.
edit on 21-9-2011 by hdutton because: after thought



posted on Sep, 21 2011 @ 12:31 PM
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Originally posted by patternfinder

Originally posted by Humanity4Ever

Originally posted by VictorVonDoom

Originally posted by illuminatislave
Educate yourself. Israel is not a friend of ours. Ask Americans who lost family members aboard the USS Liberty how much Israel gives a damn about them.


I'm with you, there. I don't see how any current or former member of the US Navy can support Israel after the USS Liberty.


The incident happened, but it was accidental, and the US government acknowledged it as such, or they most certainly would have responded accordingly. Why do anti Israel propogandists cling to this isolated incident like a lifeline to support their warped opinions of Israel? Are you also aware that friendly fire killed hundreds of American soldiers in the Vietnam War? The USS Liberty incident was a tragedy, but unfortunately, mistakes can occur during armed conflict. It's been nearly 45 years since the incident occured, and yet people still focus on it?



the so called "holocaust" was over 60 years ago, yet people are still focusing on it too, so what's the difference?


Are you serious dude?

The intentional systematic execution of 6 million European jews and millions of other people of other ethnic groups in WWII as opposed to an accidental incident that caused the death of 34 American Naval officers.

Do these historical events sound analagous to you?


edit on 21-9-2011 by Humanity4Ever because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 21 2011 @ 01:09 PM
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Originally posted by Humanity4Ever
* * * an accidental incident that caused the death of 34 American Naval officers. "


What a load of bull#. Israel's attack no the Liberty was no accident. Were you born yesterday? Read about it. Anyone who takes the trouble to read the accounts of Israel's atatck on the United States Ship Liberty and still concludes it was "an accident" is an utter fool, no less than anyone who comes on this or any other publication, asserts it was "an accident", and expects any rational informed thinking person to agree. And the U.S. gives that treacherous little country billions in aid every year.

Give it a rest already. You have completely destroyed your credibility by coming here and making that assertion
edit on 9/21/2011 by dubiousone because: Clarification



posted on Sep, 21 2011 @ 01:16 PM
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The beginning of Israel (1948) is too violent for me to accept.




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