My only challenge: Love

An after-thought...

To clarify and give a label to my position I guess I'm an exponent of what's called integral philosophy. ('Philosophy' because it's still very abstract and sophisticated).

It's (non-derogatively) miles away from what's common on this forum, but nonetheless one of the interesting spearheads in contemporary 'reality-seeking'.

One of its more accessible facets is e.g. the recurrent problem of the use of inductive reasoning, i.e. when 'categories' are created and when reasoning-chains are based on 'similarity' instead of identical-ness. A deep standard problem in much missionary theist argumentation.

E.g.: Christianity and buddhism are both metaphysical 'reality-seeking' systems, (pseudo)-ergo 'MUST' buddhism search for 'god'. A completely invalid assumption. Examples of such are many.

reply to post by bogomil


Yet again i do not have the time to respond at the moment, though i wanted to present a round 2A, perhaps even a warm up round so as to get this topic back to the top of the "recent post list"...

As you request of others... myself being the OP i bare the burden of proof in this thread, which i am more then willing to accept. The issue is i've yet to hear anything i need to prove. The idea of Love being my only absolute still needs opposition so as to maintain a proper debate.

Since i do not have the time at this moment, consider this the opportunity for others to present their ideals in this thread...

Honestly i would love it if IAMIAM would speak up, though lately i know he has been quite busy with his new found joy...

Be love everyone

reply to post by Akragon


A delayed answer is no problem. If the thread goes so far down on the list, that it it becomes somewhat invisible, give me a U2U.

As to opposing you to give some hoopla to the thread, I can't help you, as I agree with you a long part of the road.

reply to post by bogomil

And btw I'm not a freudian, with the freudian obsession of considering the human mind as some kind of latrine, you have to dig out from time to time to prevent unpleasant fermentation resulting in mindbubbles. But mental compostation-technique isn't an issue here

Nor am i, i was giving an example of one definition of "ego'...as you gave the buddhist rendition of....

The buddhist 'ego' with its dualistic cravings, needs and drives is mainly unable to 'tune into' more than mundane 'love'. And it doesn't matter if the center of that 'ego' is intellectual, emotional or physical. That doesn't mean, that all 'ego'-identities are egoncentric monsters, there are many 'ego'-identities demonstrating excellent qualities using their mundane tools of 'love' or similar to its best abiltity

Both cases are speak of the self... would you not agree?

The Mao/monotheist context had me wondering for a while earlier in my life, until I started on my present 'non-absolute' path. I can now see the mindset-connection of self-proclaimed authority with its 'absolutes' being the common denominator weighting more than the actual details of 'what-to-believe-in'. To 'believe' is more important than the 'belief' itself (for some).

Love's authority can not be self proclaimed, because as i said... love is selfless... And im not telling you this because its what you should believe... you are free to believe whatever you will.

Thanks for giving me an opening, allowing the answer: "Then now".

The various 'emanations' of an alleged (but for the duration assumed) non-cosmic reality are in practically all asian-indo-european religious/myhological contexts traceable back to one or another version of the '3-gunic' system. When cosmic existence manifested (or just 'before' this manifestation), the 'un-nameable' primary source made something from nothing through a tri-polar split (now I sound like SuperEd, but bear with me: 0 = a + b + c). Polarities are just fragmented 'nothing' (~a something nothing).

please explain these polarities, because again... there is many different beliefs/understandings on "polarities" as well...

There's actually a scientific similarity to this also.

But in any case ('as above so below' in a very pragmatic, non-esoteric version) many of the religious/mythological cosmogonies/cosmologies have an associated practise for achieving 'reality', and in those systems/practises the three 'gunas' are in mankind manifested as intellect, emotions and the physical body. Generally 'the western way' and some parts of hinduism is to consider some kind of hierarchial constellations between the various 'gunas' and the method is to 'grow vertically'. A main-part of the asian way is to consider the 'gunas' as 'equal' and horizontally integrate the 'gunas'.

Each of these aspects grow regardless of how much you stimulate them, through the experience of life... Still, im looking for a point to this direction of the conversation...

In the 'horizontally' version each practical way (towards 'reality') of intellectualism, emotionalism or pragmatic 'physicalism' has its own tools to work with and none of them is on its own THE answer.

So when manifested (say in a societal context of 'ethics') both rational, emotional and 'practical' have their own optimal answers, none of which are more 'reality-related' than any of the others.

Alright... Is the love im speaking of....selflessness... Not rationally, emotionally, and physically related... and the optimal answer? This is what im looking for... some logical opposition to my challenge.

Utilitarian ethics is as functional and 'valid' as empathy ethics and as the practical 'it's bad-for-business-to-fight' practical pragmatism. And vice versa.

Hold on... are you preaching here?

Whos talking about Utilitarian anything? Or ethics for that matter?

What are you selling?

You know VERY well, that you and I are corteous between the two of us and supply each other with interesting openings and directions. That was round 1 A. Round 2 is in this post. Round 3 can be on 'specifics' presented here (or whatever you chose).

So round 4 then?

Hows your chin by the way?

Sadly my challenge has gone unnoticed...

SO....

Bump!

reply to post by Akragon
Looking at the OP, it is: Love is Truth, now try to disprove that.
I copied the verses I could find which are from the sayings of Jesus, having to do with love.

If you love me, you will obey what I command

Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold.

This is my command: Love each other.

Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that?

And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,

If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love

but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me.

have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.

Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.

By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.

A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another

He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.

"Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God*. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone

Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love.

Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.

"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I

It was just before the Passover Feast. Jesus knew that the time had come for him to leave this world and go to the Father. Having loved his own who were in the world, he now showed them the full extent of his love.

As for truth, I think that it is that we each have a spiritual self which is for a lot of people just a hypothetical potential self. We need to actualize it by having a union between our physical self and that spiritual self. We would then be the loving person we are supposed to be.

*note on the "Woe to you Pharisees. . ." verse, it means exercising the sort of love God has.

Originally posted by Akragon
Honestly i would love it if IAMIAM would speak up, though lately i know he has been quite busy with his new found joy...

My time is always divided equally my friend.

If anyone actually puts up a worthy challenge against your argument, I'll pop in with a few words.

Besides that, what more can I really add?

Truth is truth.

You may not be able to define it, but you sure know it when you hear it.

With Love,

Your Brother

reply to post by IAMIAM


Unfortunatly i already know there will be no worthy challenge here... That kinda was the point

Besides, i just wanted to see you back here again...

Wishful thinking i suppose... Hey i guess it worked!

Be love

reply to post by Akragon


"SELFLESSNESS" True, but there are very few people that understand this and from my point of view,
when I am giving my all ,it seems I am the only one putting in an effort.....
then those, "I'm tired of You taking advantage of me" vibes take over ...

I do agree Peace is the answer, It's just trying to get everyone to see our point of view.....

Originally posted by LeRoy1968
reply to post by Akragon

 

"SELFLESSNESS" True, but there are very few people that understand this and from my point of view,
when I am giving my all ,it seems I am the only one putting in an effort.....
then those, "I'm tired of You taking advantage of me" vibes take over ...

I do agree Peace is the answer, It's just trying to get everyone to see our point of view.....

If those people understood what Selflessness is, they would not take advantage of you...

Love is selfless... Though its not a truth many can accept, or even understand

reply to post by LeRoy1968
Having people move in with you as a way of "helping" them ends up bad, from my experience. If you see someone hungry, you can give them some food, but getting further involved may be just feeding some sort of psychological need within yourself, and then the idea of selflessness goes out the window. If you give someone a sandwich and walk away, you are feeding another person and not your ego.

reply to post by jmdewey60


The giving a sandwich I can do....
I am learning that there are many people out there that will feed off my generosity and not think twice about it.
I have learned that I have no problem helping those that want to truly better themselves.
It's the sly ones that just want a free ride that I keep running into.....

reply to post by LeRoy1968
Of course I don't mean any of that towards you personally and I was hinting at this comes from examining myself. There is an endorphine (or something) high you can get and I don't think that is the way to salvation or anything and if we do things to feel good, then that is not good for our souls, or anyone else's. (sorry about the bad grammar but It is not something I can articulate any better)

reply to post by jmdewey60


I think I can see where you're going with that....
The endorphin part makes sense to me. But when I help someone, it isn't followed by a rush.
I do it without even thinking or hesitating. My Mother raised a Southern Gentlemen in me.

reply to post by LeRoy1968

It doesn't follow so much as precedes the act. It is something which happens on an instinctual level (just my opinion), something that comes with the initial thought, when you decide it is something you will do. My point being, it is a natural, physical response and maybe a survival thing for the species, and not a prompting from God, or something like that. So you (and I don't mean you in particular, but anyone who might read this) don't need to think, "Oh, this is the spirit telling me I should go beyond the call of duty and be a sacrificial offering to God and allow my life to be destroyed while attempting to "help" someone (who most likely only sees you as someone to suck off of so they can support a lifestyle beyond what they are willing to work for themselves).

reply to post by jmdewey60


Though i do agree with you, let me also remind you of this..

11These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

12This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

13Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.