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Alert...First Aid Holders...Can You Safely Perform CPR on A Muslim Burkah Clad Woman?

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posted on Sep, 20 2011 @ 01:18 AM
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As a current First Aid Holder down under, Iam relating a story I was told by a person currently doing their First Aid certificate.
This person told me that an instriuctor related a story where a Burkah clad woman was using a water slide in a fun park in Australia, the Lifesaver guard(First aid holder) went to the Burkah clad figures aid as she appeared to be in trouble, the lifesaver was then knocked over by a male ...presumably the husband who saw the lifesaver uncovering the clad figures face...he yelled you don't uncover the face. or something similar.

The question is does any knowledgeable person know anything of the law in relation to this issue?

Duty of care extends first to yourself in a first aid situation then the victim and bystanders of an incident.

Has there been any guidelines published in relation to the attending of Burkah clad women in a medical incident /qaccident situation ?

No one wants to be attacked by the spouse /brother ect of a fundamentalist Burkah clad woman.

So does anyone know the rules relating to this?
edit on 20-9-2011 by Dr Expired because: grammar




posted on Sep, 20 2011 @ 01:22 AM
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Well in the U.S. or at least in Ca, if you are CPR certified you are obligated too to do what ever it takes with in your training so that would mean removing the Burka if it impaired your ability to perform CPR.



posted on Sep, 20 2011 @ 01:25 AM
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The policy is this: if there is a dangerous situation to the first responder, the first responder will wait for the police to secure the situation and once that has been accomplished, the first responder will do their job.

ETA: private citizens do not have a duty to respond

edit on 20-9-2011 by LadySkadi because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 20 2011 @ 01:27 AM
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post removed for serious violation of ATS Terms & Conditions



posted on Sep, 20 2011 @ 01:29 AM
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Well, they say for CPR you no longer have to breath for them. They say now you really just need to do the chest compressions. So hopefully it wont be an issue.



posted on Sep, 20 2011 @ 01:30 AM
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reply to post by Dr Expired
 


well according to the gf and she is from the religious backround they do NOT have to wear it all the time the only thing they do doesnt cover the entire face just up the the side leaving just the face and natural beauty to be showen....so if their face is covered and to save their life you have to remove it then so be it have the man restrained and held back i would im not letting someone die on my watch and having to live with that on my mind because the other person felt they should die for their faith because they didnt want their face showed...



posted on Sep, 20 2011 @ 01:31 AM
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reply to post by Carseller4
 
you must respect the husband/brother unless your first responder, then you have the law/ authority on your side. A lawsuit or a knife to the throat is not worth the risk.



posted on Sep, 20 2011 @ 01:32 AM
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I am a paramedic in the US. Here you, or your family as appropriate, have a right to refuse any and all medical care, life saving or not, as long as you, or family, can make an informed decision with regards to the benefits of that care and the risks of refusing. We run into this frequently with ambulance transport, not burkh clad women per se but patients in general. Now this does extend to religious beliefs as well. One notable example is blood transfusions with, I believe, Jews. What I would do in this situation is either just expose the mouth (raise the bottom or cut a slit), as I assume you are meaning to perform rescue breathing, or if that is unaccecptable attempt to do it through the cloth. You won't get a perfect seal but it will likely be good enough. If you are performing full CPR with chest compressions something being taught here is hands only CPR. This involves chest compressions with no rescue breathing. The idea behind this is that he amount of air you move doing compressions is sufficient to keep blood oxygen levels up during CPR until an advanced airway of some type is placed. So basically check the laws pertaining to your area on "duty to act" as well as "right to refuse treatment" and "informed consent." Beyond all that just do the best you can with what you got, you're not likely to get in trouble for doing that.

Also when getting into any type of first responder or emergency medicine situation people die. It's a fact of life you have to get over. You can't save every one and you can't take it home with you. I've literally watched dozens die in front of my eyes in the course of my career. If you have violent family or bystanders wait for the police. Having some restrain them while you work is stupid. If they die in that situation it's not your fault. Your safety is paramount at all times no matter what else is going on.
edit on 20-9-2011 by mus8472 because: Added second paragraph



posted on Sep, 20 2011 @ 01:37 AM
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Ive actually asked this question to a hardcore muslim.

Normally you cant touch a woman who isnt your wife or family but if its to save a life then you are obligated to.
The example he gave was even if a woman was stabbed in the breast or inner thigh he would plug the hole with his thumb till medical help arrived (interesting example I know)
Cpr is also fine if they have stopped breathing.

That said I keep well clear of Burkha wearing Muslims and their hubbys, yet to meet one without a totally backward outlook.
If I saw a burkha wearer in trouble I would just hope someone else was there to help LOL

To answer your question, by most countries laws and Islamic law the right thing to do is to save the womans life, how the hubby reacts is another story
edit on 20-9-2011 by IkNOwSTuff because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 20 2011 @ 01:39 AM
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Originally posted by Calex1987
reply to post by Dr Expired
 


well according to the gf and she is from the religious backround they do NOT have to wear it all the time the only thing they do doesnt cover the entire face just up the the side leaving just the face and natural beauty to be showen....so if their face is covered and to save their life you have to remove it then so be it have the man restrained and held back i would im not letting someone die on my watch and having to live with that on my mind because the other person felt they should die for their faith because they didnt want their face showed...


And if you hold the husband/brother back while you perform your CPR, what then? That woman is going to be in a bad situation when she gets home. I feel your sense of honor and duty, but sometimes, when it comes to something like this, it may be best to just wait for a first responder.

Now, if there was a disaster and first responder will take awhile to get there, well then, it's time to get to work.



posted on Sep, 20 2011 @ 01:40 AM
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Originally posted by LadySkadi
The policy is this: if there is a dangerous situation to the first responder, the first responder will wait for the police to secure the situation and once that has been accomplished, the first responder will do their job.

ETA: private citizens do not have a duty to respond



edit on 20-9-2011 by LadySkadi because: (no reason given)

I stand corrected. Its been a long time since I was CPR certified, seems what I remembered was incorrect. I even had to looked it up to because I was certain I was correct, but I wasn't. *blushes*
But this bring up the issue of how do you know its a dangerous situation. I am sure the last thing the lifeguard was thinking about at the time, was whether he was going to get beat up for it or not.



posted on Sep, 20 2011 @ 01:41 AM
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Originally posted by gimme_some_truth
Well, they say for CPR you no longer have to breath for them. They say now you really just need to do the chest compressions. So hopefully it wont be an issue.

Thats not strictly true in Australia , and hey...you have to first check for a response after checking for danger ie a big angry male...then you have to check the airways and check for breathing this is all part of the latest first aid training.

DRS ABCD which all of us should memorise and learn.
www.lifesavingfirstaid.co.nz...

It is impossible almost to evaluate the victims condition if they are wearing a Burkah.

Duty of care is important in a first aid situation the first consideration is yourself, then the victim and bystanders.

If you are knocked out by a angry muslim chaperone or husband because you have uncovered the Burkah clad victims face ....then you cannot save anyone.
If we wait for the Police...then the victim may die.
It is a genuine dilemma.



posted on Sep, 20 2011 @ 01:48 AM
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Originally posted by Calex1987
reply to post by Dr Expired
 


well according to the gf and she is from the religious backround they do NOT have to wear it all the time the only thing they do doesnt cover the entire face just up the the side leaving just the face and natural beauty to be showen....so if their face is covered and to save their life you have to remove it then so be it have the man restrained and held back i would im not letting someone die on my watch and having to live with that on my mind because the other person felt they should die for their faith because they didnt want their face showed...


You'd see the woman killed by her husband for dishonoring the family. Why?

She let a non-muslim male touch her and see her face.

Oh it doesn't matter that she'd have died anyway... not when honor is at stake.



posted on Sep, 20 2011 @ 01:51 AM
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reply to post by mus8472
 


Appreciate the knowledgeable input from a professional, you have presented the advice in a no nonsense real world manner, which inexperienced but hopefully somewhat competent novice First Aiders like myself need to hear.

I personally admire hugely human beings like you who can face such traumatic situations and keep on keeping on



I think what you say makes hard...but very reasonable and real world sense.



posted on Sep, 20 2011 @ 01:56 AM
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reply to post by Ha`la`tha
 


can he prove im not Muslim? also it has nothing to do with personal honor its the fact that if you can save someones life regardless of religious background shouldnt you atleast try rather then just standing there and watching them die because of religion it sounds stupid and childish at best...to let someone die because you do not believe in the same thing.....id want to save them for the same reason if it happend to me i dont care who u are if u can save me and try by all means....ell you could be a dirty hobo from the streets if u see me fall and i need cpr and you can give it i hope you would rather then sit back and go meh....just another body....



posted on Sep, 20 2011 @ 02:00 AM
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If it were me, I'd very happily NOT perform CPR on any backward, ignorant, brainwashed person if their twisted belief system said I shouldn't. One less idiot in the world.



posted on Sep, 20 2011 @ 02:01 AM
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reply to post by Dr Expired
 


You're very welcome my friend, happy to help as I can. Be safe and remember that you WILL make a difference for someone.



posted on Sep, 20 2011 @ 02:04 AM
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reply to post by Ha`la`tha
 


I have heard similar things , I guess what we need to know is be very careful in this situation.
I would still think I would try and save the woman , but Iam a big boy, many first aiders are women or elderly.
If the woman was killed later ,we have no control of such things, but then again, if the woman was in a survivable condition, and we removed her head covering and touched her to folow DRS ABCD guidelines, then we in effect may have put her life in future jeopardy.
It is truly a difficult subject?



posted on Sep, 20 2011 @ 02:04 AM
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Originally posted by Calex1987
reply to post by Ha`la`tha
 


can he prove im not Muslim? also it has nothing to do with personal honor its the fact that if you can save someones life regardless of religious background shouldnt you atleast try rather then just standing there and watching them die because of religion it sounds stupid and childish at best...to let someone die because you do not believe in the same thing.....id want to save them for the same reason if it happend to me i dont care who u are if u can save me and try by all means....ell you could be a dirty hobo from the streets if u see me fall and i need cpr and you can give it i hope you would rather then sit back and go meh....just another body....


In most cases, I'm sure most of us would try. However, if there is an angry man that clearly does not want one of us to intervene, we have to take two things into consideration.

1) Your personal safety. A punch or a kick to the face ain't so bad, but what if it gets out of hand and he pulls a weapon, forget guns, a pocket knife would be enough to finish you in the hands of a man who feels disrespected.

2) The aftermath. What happens when that woman gets home? She may be beaten so severely that you end up not helping her out at all.

My main concern would be problem number 2. However, if your character is strong enough to accept the fact that you are about to put this woman's life at risk a second time by saving her the first time, then by all means.



posted on Sep, 20 2011 @ 02:11 AM
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Originally posted by Calex1987
reply to post by Ha`la`tha
 


can he prove im not Muslim?


I don't think he'd be too bothered to ask, you're not family, you're a stranger and you're in a non-muslim land, dressed as a life guard. By default, unless he knew you, you're a kaffir.


also it has nothing to do with personal honor its the fact that if you can save someones life regardless of religious background shouldnt you atleast try rather then just standing there and watching them die because of religion it sounds stupid and childish at best...


Umm, I meant HIS family honor, not the guy attempting to save her. Honor killings are not usually enacted because of someone elses honor. If he was eager enough to knock over the person attempting to save his wife's life, I'm not sure it's too far to stretch it that he'd also take that sort of thing quite seriously.

I was asked once by a relative of mine a question; if I saw an accident on the road and there were 2 victims, one white and the other aborigine, which would I save first... He told me he'd save the aborigine first, as he's an aborigine, and that it's just nature to do so.

I said I'd assess the situation and help the person who needed it most. I don't think he knew what to say...

But in this case, I'd stay well away. At the first sign of trouble, I'd back off and leave it be.


to let someone die because you do not believe in the same thing.....id want to save them for the same reason if it happend to me i dont care who u are if u can save me and try by all means....ell you could be a dirty hobo from the streets if u see me fall and i need cpr and you can give it i hope you would rather then sit back and go meh....just another body....


Not sure if you misread my post or not, but I said nothing about not helping anyone because I don't believe what they do, or because they might be a hobo...???

But if even keira Knightly fell over and some tosser came over and threatened to bash me if I touched her, and he had mates with him, hell, as much as I'd have to resist, I'd not lay a finger on her.

My safety tends to appeal more to me than getting mixed up in something like that.
edit on 20/9/2011 by Ha`la`tha because: (no reason given)



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