From Sinner to Saint

I watched the movie Shaolin yesterday and it got me thinking.

In this movie, a general, of the most crass and selfish nature, loses his daughter, his wife, and is betrayed by his first liutenant. Having gone through all this sufferring, he gives up his former self and comes to a realization. He shaves his head and asks to become a monk.

In the scene where he asks to become a monk, some of the younger monks, having witnessed the evils and sins that this man has committed can not bear to see this man become a monk. He must have ulterior motives; to hide from the new general who is now looking for him. They exhort the chief abbot "do not let him"

The chief abbot says calmly says "no, anyone who seeks truth can study Buddhism"...

Later on, we see that this man has indeed awakened to himself. He tries, in vain, to enlighten his former pupil to the delusions and evils of his ways, begging him to not be as he was. Again, all in vain. The new general acts just as he does. He even throws his own advice to him back in his face "You once told me 'Never allow an advantage to go unused"...

Eventually, at the end, the new monk, and former general, gets what he deserved. He dies.

But not before Heaven had blessed him with something much greater. Before his death, the good and compassionate God incited this man to awaken to himself. Although he certainly deserved the death penalty for all the people he killed, Heaven gave him the gift of enlightenment. He was allowed to repair his ways, and to repair his basic state of consciousness, before he was ultimately taken from the world...

So....This got me thinking about the death penalty and its value..

There are two sides to the equation.

On one side, the killer has taken a life from the world. This life can never come back. He has prematurely taken it. He has upset the natural course of this persons life, and as such, the only repair would be for his life to be taken aswell.

On the other hand, this person can, if he so desires, be reformed, as in the case of the general who became a monk. He can awaken to his former evil ways, truly repent and become a conscious and responsible being.

But theres always the reality and fact of what you did. You cannot erase the things you have done.

When the new general comes to the Shaolin temple he tells the chief abbot that hes going to take the new monk with him. The chief abbot stands up for the new monk, saying no. But the new monk, with great wisdom, looks at the Chief monk and gives the prayer posture, as if to say, "let it be", this is what should be. He had reached such a state of self realization that he knew the only way to compensate for his sins was for he himself to be subject to death. This is why the situation he and his fellow monks find themselves has come about. In order to prevent further bloodshed, he accepts and goes with the new general, knowing that it'll probably mean the end of his life....

you want to ever see some heated and upset debates on whether or not to seek the death penalty, just get in a Christian only community. We on both sides tend to be very upset, because both sides are for saving lives.

Originally posted by dontreally
I watched the movie Shaolin yesterday and it got me thinking.


On one side, the killer has taken a life from the world. This life can never come back. He has prematurely taken it. He has upset the natural course of this persons life, and as such, the only repair would be for his life to be taken aswell.

is that certain? is there any way to prove that this life that was taken was taken unnaturally? that he wasnt meant to die for a greater purpose? could it not be that his purpose was to teach this general/monk a lesson? (among other things of course, like teaching the true value of human life to his loved ones) i addressed this same kind of philosophy in your last thread.

ok, lets say his life is taken, to balance the life he took. does that mean the man that took his life must die as well, to balance the life that he took? would there be an end to the death for justice in that case? or if you are told to kill someone, is it ok to do so. "this man has taken a life, kill him"
"doesnt that mean that i have taken a life as well, being the executioner?"
"no because you are acting because of natural justice, a life for a life"
"so isnt it possible that the man he killed had killed a man as well? and this was just natural justice?"

you can tell someone over and over that life is precious, and never to be taken for granted. the fact is that you wont know this to be wise untill you see life taken for granted. in this story the generals apprentice uses the phrase, never pass up an advantage. but like his master, he wont realize the actual wisdom in his mistake untill he makes it

to me, it seems the monk accepts this as truth and realizes that only by letting his apprentice make a mistake can he learn the same lessons, so sacrifices himself.

this may just be fiction, but life has a balance. this is why good choices, made with good intentions can have bad consequences, and why bad choices with bad intentions can have good consequences. there has to be balance, this just seems like a rule of physics for this universe, even applicable to us monkeymen

even in this situation a "sinner" can show a bunch of hesitant "saints" that things are never as black and white as they seem. and that even someone raised by evil, doesnt have to be evil as well. that is balance, in my opinion.

reply to post by Venomilk

is that certain? is there any way to prove that this life that was taken was taken unnaturally? that he wasnt meant to die for a greater purpose? could it not be that his purpose was to teach this general/monk a lesson? (among other things of course, like teaching the true value of human life to his loved ones) i addressed this same kind of philosophy in your last thread.

This opens up a whole new level of philosophy.

From our perspective, we always have free will.

An action like murder will almost always be something which someone can reasonably look at and understand to be wrong.

Of course, someone who grows up into a barbarous society where murder is normal wont have that same issue of conscience. His 'point of free will' might be something trivial compared to whats actual and true.

Any sensible and reasonable person can know that this action is evil. Whether or not theres a divine 'reason' behind the action doesnt prevent man from bearing responsibility for his actions.

We live in a paradox. From our perspective, before the action, were responsible. Post-facto, it must have been willed by God. But no sane person can willfully act evil and then say "God willed it". That isnt sound thinking.

ok, lets say his life is taken, to balance the life he took. does that mean the man that took his life must die as well, to balance the life that he took?

Does that sound reasonable to you?

The man who takes the life is acting as a medium to execute divine justice. He himself is not killing out of malice, or hate. Infact, if hes a truly conscious being, he should understand that his act of "killing" the criminal, is an act of mercy, since the intention behind the action is to cleanse ths soul from his sin of murder.

Because this soul has made recompension, he can be reborn at a later time and be given a fresh round of physical existence.

so isnt it possible that the man he killed had killed a man as well? and this was just natural justice?"

This thinking can be so easily dispelled.

The killer had a choice, and he chose wrongly.

The executioner is acting as an intermediary between the attribute of divine Justice and the world. He is not culpable because his position is nothing more then a tool for another power.

Were speaking ontollogically. The killer is guilty because he knew in his heart (ie; either through conscience, or even if his conscience has been deranged, at a very deep unconscious level) that murder is an evil action.. It is not just, fair, etc.

He may have a million motivations, but none of them will prevent the attribute of justice from seeking retribution.

In the case of war, a more complicated moral situation is created. Killing, in this situation, is not done out of malice, but out of duty. Thus, morally, the people responsible would be people who have more room for free will decisions; this being the role of captains, generals, presidents, congress. People at this level have profound power, and thus moral responsibility for their actions.

Every situation can be logically worked out. Its not as "relative" as you would hope it would be. Although thinking that way does appear to "make it that way".

you can tell someone over and over that life is precious, and never to be taken for granted. the fact is that you wont know this to be wise untill you see life taken for granted. in this story the generals apprentice uses the phrase, never pass up an advantage. but like his master, he wont realize the actual wisdom in his mistake untill he makes it

Of course, people tend to learn from their mistakes.... But that is not the only way to come to wisdom, although it is definitely one of the main ways.

We also learn through seeing and learning from the mistakes of others.

We also grow through knowledge and understanding. Knowledge, when understood, is transformative. It changes the entire nature of the self.

Someone who at an earlier stage in his life may have been stubborn or indolent towards spirituality, can, through a love for truth and knowledge, come to an elevated understanding. All this can happen without having endured sufferring, although undoubtedly, the farther one is from the truth seems to spark a profound motivation towards seeking the truth. Thus, the more sunken in evil, paradoxically, the greater the desire one has to seek the truth.

But im not ready to form a 'dualism' which encourages evil behavior in order to 'balance' the world between truth and falsehood. I dont think the world has to work that way.

God is very compassionate indeed. He'll bring murderers close to him in order for them to see the nature of their actions, and so brings them to a higher understanding of life.

The Death penalty, properly understood, is not a cold and heartless punishment for evil people. Yes. They may be "evil", but at their heart, their is a good, and it is this good which we seek to save by eliminating this current "self-ego" of theirs which is preventing this good from shining forth.

and why bad choices with bad intentions can have good consequences.

Please give me an example of bad choices with bad intentions that have good consequences.

Should such a person who thought and intended badly be 'rewarded' for the incidental good? Of course not.

Should the person with good intentions, but carried out in an improper way, or time, be punished? No. They shouldnt.

Usually speaking, good intentions have good consequences while bad intention have bad consequences. Because this is so, one should not "play God", and act bad, thinking "everything is the same", because it is stupid. It is so dumb, and it is frustating that someone could insist on thinking that way. A part of me wants to slam that persons head against the wall over and over and over again.

Originally posted by dontreally

and why bad choices with bad intentions can have good consequences.

Please give me an example of bad choices with bad intentions that have good consequences.

Should such a person who thought and intended badly be 'rewarded' for the incidental good? Of course not.

Should the person with good intentions, but carried out in an improper way, or time, be punished? No. They shouldnt.

Usually speaking, good intentions have good consequences while bad intention have bad consequences. Because this is so, one should not "play God", and act bad, thinking "everything is the same", because it is stupid. It is so dumb, and it is frustating that someone could insist on thinking that way. A part of me wants to slam that persons head against the wall over and over and over again.

Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by Venomilk

 

From our perspective, we always have free will.

ok, lets say his life is taken, to balance the life he took. does that mean the man that took his life must die as well, to balance the life that he took?

The executioner is acting as an intermediary between the attribute of divine Justice and the world. He is not culpable because his position is nothing more then a tool for another power.



God is very compassionate indeed. He'll bring murderers close to him in order for them to see the nature of their actions, and so brings them to a higher understanding

right, the executioner is acting as an intermediary for a higher power, right?
the same thing can be said for murderers. they may actually be acting out of fear, hate, malice, but that doesnt mean he isnt an intermediary for a much higher power, (without even wanting to, or believing it)

i believe we live in a combination of free-will, and extremely detailed scripting. an actor can choose not to follow the script, but it ends up messing up the whole production, as well as the other actors around him. this would mesh well with reincarnation, being that you can repeat a life over and over untill you read the script like you are supposed to. each time you choose not to "say your line" you will be pushed harder and harder untill you do.

you can see the world as good or evil, thats fine, everyone else does. you can follow the path of good, with all the struggles involved. or you can follow the path of evil, with all its struggles involved

or you can see that the answer is to learn from both. thats when strange things start happening, when everything seems to fall into place

i never meant that being evil is actually good. but an evil person can spread more good than most people realize. and a good person can ruin lives in the pursuit of helping. thats balance.

in this philosophy of mine if you choose the good path, another will choose the evil path, even if it seems like free will. but what if everyone learned from both good and evil?

reply to post by Venomilk

the same thing can be said for murderers. they may actually be acting out of fear, hate, malice, but that doesnt mean he isnt an intermediary for a much higher power, (without even wanting to, or believing it)

Again, you ignore Free Will.

Is he not conscious? Does he not have the ability to discern? Even in a state of anger, most people are able to recognize how they are acting, and so able to 'cool themselves down'. Someone in the grip of a murderous anger, is not simply there because he is "more susceptible" to the feeling, but because he freely allows this emotion to flare up to that degree. Even if he knows himself and his own anger problem, he still allows himself to fall that deep into anger. Theres a million and one things he could have done to prevent that situation. He didnt. He ignored what was probable. He is fully responsible.

i believe we live in a combination of free-will, and extremely detailed scripting.

Thats essentially what i said. From our perspective - the only thing relative to us - we have complete Free Will. From the cosmic providential perception, everything is already determined.

n actor can choose not to follow the script, but it ends up messing up the whole production

And who knows the script? I dont, you dont. Nobody "knows". Even a prophet, seer, magician, sees only a likely possibility. Free will disrupts that. Hence, even the highest spiritual worlds dont know what will really come about.

Only God does. And none of us are God, unfortunately for some people.

this would mesh well with reincarnation, being that you can repeat a life over and over untill you read the script like you are supposed to. each time you choose not to "say your line" you will be pushed harder and harder untill you do.

I believe in something like that. You make a mistake and you can comeback to correct and advance yourself spiritually.

or you can see that the answer is to learn from both. thats when strange things start happening, when everything seems to fall into place

You can learn from evil without supporting evil.

And like you, my world has many 'synchronicities" aswell.

Duality is a basic aspect of existence, i agree. At root, duality is an expression of expansion and contraction. Both the Kabbalah and Eastern metaphysics (like Brahma and Siva) agree with this.

Kabbalah says evil is the degeneration of the human emotion of fear; Fear in this sense is understood as precaution. For instance, would anyone jump off a building, or put their hand in a fire? No. The sheer thought of doing that would incite a fear, or repulsion in you. The true understanding of the 'negative', contractive aspect of reality is this feeling of caution ie "fear of God", which with certain devout people is divinized as a path to God; Fearing God being staying within whats permissible and reasonable.

but an evil person can spread more good than most people realize. and a good person can ruin lives in the pursuit of helping. thats balance.

I think you are gravely exaggerrating right now.

In most cases, evil actions have bad results. Even evil actions with good intentions most of the time have negative results.

Good actions, well thought out and applied with consideration to circumstances, and possible consequences, will almost always have good results.

Yes, there are aberrations. But dont transform a 2-5% likelyhood into a 50/50, where it doesnt really matter if one does good or evil. To put more thought or less, because it could be 'either or".

Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by Venomilk

 

And who knows the script? I dont, you dont. Nobody "knows". Even a prophet, seer, magician, sees only a likely possibility. Free will disrupts that. Hence, even the highest spiritual worlds dont know what will really come about.

Only God does. And none of us are God, unfortunately for some people.

if we had free will, even god could not know this. but if god puts you in every situation leading up to this newest situation, then yes, it will know the outcome. so it is possible that we only think we have free will, when we are only doing what we are supposed to. this seems to be the only answer to "if there is a god that knows and effects everything how could he let all the murder and pain happen?" you could say free will, but what about those that have this happen without making a choice. someone else had to make these choices. so in a just world where the consequences are based on your choices this would be impossible.

if this world could show the pain of death, or the damages it causes with words, then there would be no more war, no more anger, jealousy, hatred. but thats not how it works, evil cannot be destroyed because there would be no good without evil, no evil without good. this means that it is meant to be here, that evil is as perpetual as good. its looked down upon, of course, but you wouldnt have hope, relief, happiness, or love without that evil.

furthermore, how can a book or text or scroll be holy if it didnt come from the mouth of god? if it was written purely under free will then it is fiction. if there was an outside influence then there isnt free will, and the text really is holy. if god knows all outcomes, free will is impossible because you cant escape the outcome, no matter how much you try to think it through or "cool off" that means that god knows how you will use your free will and that is a contradiction

this leads me to believe that things are far more relative than they seem

reply to post by Venomilk

if we had free will, even god could not know this. but if god puts you in every situation leading up to this newest situation, then yes, it will know the outcome. so it is possible that we only think we have free will, when we are only doing what we are supposed to. this seems to be the only answer to "if there is a god that knows and effects everything how could he let all the murder and pain happen?" you could say free will, but what about those that have this happen without making a choice. someone else had to make these choices. so in a just world where the consequences are based on your choices this would be impossible.

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD.

What about that is hard to understand? Its actually quite simple. We cannot understand how the whole works in relation to the parts. We are finite minded creatures. Inherently unable to know the mind of God.

if this world could show the pain of death, or the damages it causes with words, then there would be no more war, no more anger, jealousy, hatred. but thats not how it works, evil cannot be destroyed because there would be no good without evil, no evil without good. this means that it is meant to be here, that evil is as perpetual as good. its looked down upon, of course, but you wouldnt have hope, relief, happiness, or love without that evil.

You say that from a natural perception.

Man is above nature because man can choose to go against base and instinctive nature.

There is a doctrine out there that basically says man is meant to live above nature, and subdue it.

In anycase, in the current frame of things, yes, peace is valued because of war, love because of hate, etc, but that is only the paradigm in which we live now.

We dont know what things could be when reality is reformed and man ascends to higher spiritual levels.

A man cannot see from earth the complexities and subtleties which exist beyond the planet itself. But someone in a 'spaceship' can see how much more there is.

For instance, an animal doesnt know anything about "hope" or "despair", war or peace. These are things an animal may experience, in a very primitive and unconscious way, but they will never know these concepts.

Ascend another dimension of being, and the issue becomes moral.

Ascend yet another level, and there is something greater.

The animal never percieves the moral, and likewise, the human being doesnt see beyond a world of good and evil. In the world that we live, this seems to be the only 'context' in which reality can take place.

One of many similar interesting redemption facts from Buddhism.

My favourite and the most well known is of the following:

Jetsun Milarepa Murderer to Saint

Black Magician to Yogi/Enlightenment

Enjoy

Love

Elf