Turkey to freeze EU ties if Cyprus gets EU presidency

reply to post by 23432


Well for starters lets clear something up. Stormfront is a neo nazi group, and many people on this site, when going after Israel, constantly pull material from stormfront sites to justify their position / argument. I have called those people out, and to date, they havent bothered to make excuses on why they used the info in the first place. Even better is they have not denied the links between radical Islam and the goals of Nazis.

Secondly, The Kurds have nothing to do with stormfront.

Third, your splitting hairs.

To argue that the Kurd situation is somewhow different is not only a joke, its just sad. Whats even better is how you and several others who are condemning the West and the EU for their supposed bad behavior are not only advocating that exact same behvior, you are justifying it for supposed injustices in the past.

That makes your entire argument flawed.

Feel free to continue making excuses though. Turkey is going down a road they arent prepared to travel down, and the turkish people are going to suffer because of it. Hopefully an Arab Spring, or military intervention by Turkish Officers will occur before it happens.

Turkey is trying to position itself as a power broker in the Middle East. While people may like that notion, what about countries in the Middle East who werent consulted that dont want Turkey representing the region.

Originally posted by Xcathdra
reply to post by 23432

 

Well for starters lets clear something up. Stormfront is a neo nazi group, and many people on this site, when going after Israel, constantly pull material from stormfront sites to justify their position / argument. I have called those people out, and to date, they havent bothered to make excuses on why they used the info in the first place. Even better is they have not denied the links between radical Islam and the goals of Nazis.

You sounded like a stormfronter . I heard this argument on that site many times and you are echoing whether knowingly or not I don't know .


Secondly, The Kurds have nothing to do with stormfront.

On stormfront , you can find the Greeks and Armenians and other EU nationals saying that the Kurds are Indo-European thus worthy of being saved . Of course an ardent opponent like myself can see where these greeks and armenians and others are coming from .
FYI .

Third, your splitting hairs.


Kurds are by and large happy in Turkey .
All the indications are showing this to be true .
Besides , I actually have cousins who are married to Kurds and I actually have known a fair amount of Kurds in my time too .

How many Kurds do you really know ?
How many Kurds you broke bread with and prayed to Allah together ?

I am also the one who said that the Kurds actually do need their own homeland too .

I am not splitting hairs here . You are categorising all hair as the having the same characteristics i.e pubic , head , underarm , vellus or not , it is all same type of hair according to you .

To argue that the Kurd situation is somewhow different is not only a joke, its just sad.

To argue that the Kurds are just like Gazan population is actually an insult to intelligence I am afraid .
Current Turkish government gets almost % 80 of Kurdish vote in Turkey .
You are arguing that these people are just like Gaza population .

Really , let's have some perspective here .


Whats even better is how you and several others who are condemning the West and the EU for their supposed bad behavior are not only advocating that exact same behvior, you are justifying it for supposed injustices in the past.

Turks do get second class citizen treatment in EU and the West . Perhaps you need to learn about what ordinary Turk faces in EU and West , day to day ?


That makes your entire argument flawed.

actually it makes it a righteous argument .

Feel free to continue making excuses though. Turkey is going down a road they arent prepared to travel down, and the turkish people are going to suffer because of it. Hopefully an Arab Spring, or military intervention by Turkish Officers will occur before it happens.

edit on 19-9-2011 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)

I have never made any excuses .
Please , do try to learn what Turks go thru in EU & West .

Your ignorance is showing .

And that is really sad indeed .

Once upon time, a very close friend had once confided in me and not only "the level of ignorance and how oblivious Europeans are to how it has all been structured and implemented before their very eyes is a representation of how successful we are "

He no longer is in touch with me, but his words do echo and multiply as time goes by.

reply to post by 23432


Actually one of the major reasons Turkey never recieved full support from within Europe was because the country still has some arguably authoritarian laws. Membership of the EU is not as beneficial as it seems, espeically nowadays with such a poor economic situation, as others have said I seriously doubt they were after full membership anyway as opposed to increased trade opportunities.

Originally posted by lifeissacred
reply to post by 23432

 

Actually one of the major reasons Turkey never recieved full support from within Europe was because the country still has some arguably authoritarian laws. Membership of the EU is not as beneficial as it seems, espeically nowadays with such a poor economic situation, as others have said I seriously doubt they were after full membership anyway as opposed to increased trade opportunities.

edit on 19-9-2011 by lifeissacred because: (no reason given)

On that note you should also include the investment issues regarding the U.S.D. and if you are not aware of other forms of trading currency.

* i simply used the U.S.D. within my reply as it is more then likely to be acknowledged as a currency or from of exchange to the majority

Originally posted by lifeissacred
reply to post by 23432

 

Actually one of the major reasons Turkey never recieved full support from within Europe was because the country still has some arguably authoritarian laws.

No arguing about it , really . Turks have had some authoritarian laws and they have set about to change them 10 years ago . Most of the legislation in Turkey is on par with EU yet Turks are not full member of EU .

As being the pragmatics that they are , Turks will take a good thing when they can find one .

In this context EU is a source of good change and Turks took it without being a member because they recognise a good thing when they see it and are not at difficulty to admit that it must be adopted to their own culture .



Membership of the EU is not as beneficial as it seems, espeically nowadays with such a poor economic situation, as others have said I seriously doubt they were after full membership anyway as opposed to increased trade opportunities.

edit on 19-9-2011 by lifeissacred because: (no reason given)

If there is an equal and true welcome for Turks to join EU , then , Turks could definetely take EU ideals to their heart and EU ideals then would have wings to go truely global

But before any of this happens , EU has to admit their own muslim states first.

I am not holding my breath but when Bosnia, Albania, Kosovo and some others are also member states , Turks might also truely want to join too .

I am really not holding my breath but you never know , perhaps Europeans will one day come to realize that they are only Eurasians who are suffering memory loss .

reply to post by 23432


Why on earth would you want to bring religion into a topic that obviously has no bearing on reality when discussing such a topic, that is unless you are geared to religion being the primer and believing that religion is the pivot point of human evolution.

Myself, it is what brought human evolution to a slow pace for fear of an accelerated rate of intelligence and diversity, lets face it, illiterate humans are what fuels the fire of evolution.

Originally posted by cerebralassassins
reply to post by 23432

 

Why on earth would you want to bring religion into a topic that obviously has no bearing on reality when discussing such a topic, that is unless you are geared to religion being the primer and believing that religion is the pivot point of human evolution.

Myself, it is what brought human evolution to a slow pace for fear of an accelerated rate of intelligence and diversity, lets face it, illiterate humans are what fuels the fire of evolution.

I don't bring religion in to anything . Religion is at the base of discrimination the muslim Europeans see in Christian Europeans .

Here you have EU , awarding Christian Cypriots but punishing Muslim Cypriots .

Perhaps one needs to learn a bit about the Turkish and Turkish Cypriots side of this dispute .

reply to post by 23432


Infer all you want in an effort to distract the others. Going down the road of Neo Nazi though is a new one, and is low even for you.

I do particularly like though how you continue to ignore the Kurdish issue with distractions. The Kurds are in the same situation as the Palestinians, with the only exception being Arabs are doing what they acccuse Israel of doing, and no amount of deflection will distract from that hypocrisy.

Whats sad is how certain people accuse others of excusing behavior, and condemning them for it, while denying they do it themselves.

That is ignorance for the win.

Since your stuck on that point, please exaplin how the difference in the issues, where countries occupy territory other groups have historical claims too.




As a side note, when replying using quotes, please seperate your answers from the quote. It makes it difficutl to find your replies - Thanks

Originally posted by cerebralassassins
Once upon time, a very close friend had once confided in me and not only "the level of ignorance and how oblivious Europeans are to how it has all been structured and implemented before their very eyes is a representation of how successful we are "

He no longer is in touch with me, but his words do echo and multiply as time goes by.

edit on 19-9-2011 by cerebralassassins because: (no reason given)

how come you guys arent in touch?

Originally posted by 23432

Originally posted by cerebralassassins
reply to post by 23432

 

Why on earth would you want to bring religion into a topic that obviously has no bearing on reality when discussing such a topic, that is unless you are geared to religion being the primer and believing that religion is the pivot point of human evolution.

Myself, it is what brought human evolution to a slow pace for fear of an accelerated rate of intelligence and diversity, lets face it, illiterate humans are what fuels the fire of evolution.

I don't bring religion in to anything . Religion is at the base of discrimination the muslim Europeans see in Christian Europeans .

Here you have EU , awarding Christian Cypriots but punishing Muslim Cypriots .

Perhaps one needs to learn a bit about the Turkish and Turkish Cypriots side of this dispute .

the reason for the divide is Islam is an all or nothing religion being pushed in the EU. Its one thing to accept a religion as part of a greater good. Its something different when that religion demands to be accepted into the group, and then demand to be treated seperately in that group.

Care to point out the spread of Christianity / Jeudaism / other religions in the Muslim world?

How come they arent welcomed in the same manner you want Islam welcomed in the West?

Does that make Islam hyporcritical? To demand equality while denying it to others?

As far as Cyprus goes, why should the southern cypriots be punished because they dont care for Turkish rule?

Originally posted by Xcathdra

Infer all you want in an effort to distract the others. Going down the road of Neo Nazi though is a new one, and is low even for you.

I don't get your meaning here . Let's keep it professional perhaps .


I do particularly like though how you continue to ignore the Kurdish issue with distractions.

I actually am on record on this board , stating that the Kurds need their own state . How is that for an ignorance ?

The Kurds are in the same situation as the Palestinians, with the only exception being Arabs are doing what they acccuse Israel of doing, and no amount of deflection will distract from that hypocrisy.

How many Kurds do you know from Turkey ? I am asking in all sincerity .

.. please exaplin how the difference in the issues, where countries occupy territory other groups have historical claims too.

In another thread , your question can be answered perhaps .

Originally posted by Xcathdra


the reason for the divide is Islam is an all or nothing religion being pushed in the EU. Its one thing to accept a religion as part of a greater good. Its something different when that religion demands to be accepted into the group, and then demand to be treated seperately in that group.

I disagree with your opinion . I don't think Abraham's religions are that different .

Care to point out the spread of Christianity / Jeudaism / other religions in the Muslim world?

You do know that there are Turkish Jews and Turkish Christians and Turkish Muslims and Turkish Shamans . Right ?

How come they arent welcomed in the same manner you want Islam welcomed in the West?

You've lost me here again . We are talking about Turks as muslims and their relation with EU . What you are referring to is an issue outside of this particular debate .
You want to talk about the intolerance islam , I understand that . You are however talking to a wrong person . You don't understand that .


Does that make Islam hyporcritical? To demand equality while denying it to others?

I repeat , Abraham's religions are not that different frmo one another .

As far as Cyprus goes, why should the southern cypriots be punished because they dont care for Turkish rule?

No one is punishing Southern Cyprus but in reality Southern Cypriots are acting the role of agent provocateur in the eastern med .

If southern Cypriots do not take into an account of northern Cypriots claims , well , who is discriminating against whom here really ?

All Countries of the World that dare call themselves "Democracies" should have cut all relations with Turkey (or do they still see themselves as the Ottoman Empire?) long ago. Only Political/Military hypocrisy has kept this most vile State from answering for it's crimes against humanity:
- The massacre and illegal occupation of Albanian people, and land.
- It's constant imperialistic moves in the Mediterranean sea, specially against Greece.
- Most importantly, it's continued repression, occupation, and genocide of the Kurdish people.

It's time for the "Sick Man Of Europe" to die, and if the EU wants to hammer a couple of nails into the coffin of this most vicious of Nations, good for them (whomever "they" happen to be).

Free Kurdistan! Free occupied Cyprus! Restitution of all occupied Albanian land!

Let's stay on topic here.

The point is, the EU will not capitulate to non-member demands, and will continue the rotating presidency as per normal function of the Union.
Turkey can choose to freeze their ascension talks, but that will be a diplomatic slap in the face to all the EU members (including Greece) who supported Turkish membership.
In my opinion, there will be no turning back from this, and the option of joining the EU in the future will never be available to them again.

Originally posted by 23432
I don't get your meaning here . Let's keep it professional perhaps .

Then understand what stormfromt is before attributing it to a person and infering they are somehow a member of or support it.

This is what you said to me -

Originally posted by 23432You sounded like a stormfronter . I heard this argument on that site many times and you are echoing whether knowingly or not I don't know .

Originally posted by 23432
I actually am on record on this board , stating that the Kurds need their own state . How is that for an ignorance ?

Ignore, not ignorance - there is a difference in the words. This is what you said -

Originally posted by 23432On stormfront , you can find the Greeks and Armenians and other EU nationals saying that the Kurds are Indo-European thus worthy of being saved . Of course an ardent opponent like myself can see where these greeks and armenians and others are coming from . FYI .

As an opponent means not in favor of. Your use here implies you do not support a the Kurds.

Originally posted by 23432
How many Kurds do you know from Turkey ? I am asking in all sincerity .

Is it a prerequisite to know somebody in an affected area in order to speak on the topic? There are Kurdish enclaves in the east / south eastern part of Turkey, Northern Iraq and Western Iran.

Originally posted by 23432
In another thread , your question can be answered perhaps .

edit on 20-9-2011 by 23432 because: (no reason given)

If you are going to raise points and then ignore them when you dont have an answer, stop raising the points.

The Arab community goes bonkers with regards to the Palestinian issue, yet remain silent on the Kurish issue. They remain quiet on the Cypriot issue.

Turkey seems to be picking up the exact same mentality as other arab countries, including Iran. Turkey apparently doesnt mind behaving like Israel, whom they blame for all problems in the Middle East as well as for the rift between their 2 countries.

They see no problem in interfering in the Palestinian issue, yet they have issues with people interfering with the Kurdish situation as well as the Cypruss situation.

They accuse Israel and Cyprus of not allowing resources to flow to a segment of their population, and yet They state they have every right to prevent other countries from developing resources in the Medditeranian.

They demand the world recognize freedom and self determination (again refernecing Palestine and north Cyprus) while at the same time denying it to the people of North Cyprus while also denying self determination to south Cyprus by interfering in their EU role.

Then they threaten in an effort to get their way..

Those arent the actions of a country tying to take the moral highground... Thats a failed highway robber....


Out of curiosity, and this is meant with all due respect, is English your native language? I get the impression its not based on certain word use. Im asking as its a possibility that is where our differences are coming from.

Originally posted by Konstantinos
Let's stay on topic here.

The point is, the EU will not capitulate to non-member demands, and will continue the rotating presidency as per normal function of the Union.
Turkey can choose to freeze their ascension talks, but that will be a diplomatic slap in the face to all the EU members (including Greece) who supported Turkish membership.
In my opinion, there will be no turning back from this, and the option of joining the EU in the future will never be available to them again.

edit on 20-9-2011 by Konstantinos because: (no reason given)

I think EU , as it stands , had it's day .

From the Turks point of view ; they ended up in position which is to protect Europeans from incoming missiles .

Of course it would of been nice if the Turks weren't treated with such bias and discrimination by some EU members .

But reality is that the most EU members have always been homogenic and insular in terms of multiculturalism whereus Turks actually based their model of existence on multi-culturalism in Anatolia or elsewhere .

Real problem in relation to EU is that the Franco- German axis of political thought is not sufficently advanced for the people's of EU on the whole .

Turks will get richer again .
It is not like they have always been poor you know . As the Turks get richer and EU gets into stagnation period , you will start seeing all the Eastern European nations wanting their share of the wealth the Turk generates .

History tells us that whenever the European lords were ruthless in taxing their own people beyond reasonable levels ; those oppressed people starts seeking betterment of their lives in Turkish lands , afmongs other places .

I think for Turks to fit into current EU club and accomodate the requests of EU would mean dissolution of Turkish Republic by the hands of Turks themselves .

Really , no one can be expected to be THAT stupid .

As I said , the EU carrot is not working anymore because Turks recently woke up to the fact that the historical animosity or anti-Turkish sentiment is well and truely alive in most EU lands .

So , therefore they have decided to revive their old ties with Arabs , Persians ,Central Asians, Russians and Africans .

I don't see anything wrong with what they are doing .

Besides there are already about 5 million Turks that live in Europe and what they experience is not that sweet nor better then what they would get at their home country at the moment .

EU ideals are on the whole admirable yet in their applications , the comprimises are being made and the end results is not akin to what this EU preaches .

Next 5 years you will get to see many more changes in Turkish society and amongs them will be an opportunity for you to go to Hagia Sophia and pray .



Curent EU ideology is not in the best interests of people of EU .

Core of EU has to be more then what the Franco- German alliance dictates to the rest of the EU nations .

Otherwise EU will remain only a regional player .

reply to post by Xcathdra



Couple of points ;

1 - Your arguments against the Turks are also utilised by SF'ers . This is not my doing .
2 - English language is not my native tongue .


I see that you don't know any Kurdish personally . It is of course ok to defend the Kurdish Rights too .
I do have Kurdish and Hebrew relatives .
I was hoping that perhaps users who are commenting do also have first hand knowledge and experience about the people we are talking about .
Of course it isn't a prerequisite to know any Kurd or an Israeli . But it really does help if you knew them .

You are comparing the Palestinian & Kurdish situations .

To an extend , you do have a point but I am afraid it is not that relevant .

Both nations of people have right of self determination and Palestinians are going to UN to get their own while the Kurds are not doing anything of a sort at the moment .

Suppose the Kurds decide to separate from Turkey and vote accordingly . In that case , all that would happen is the Turks would give support to such a separation .

As a part of new Turkish policy , the Iraqi Kurdistan is actually built by Turkish companies and Iraqi Kurdish Leaders look for the ways of integrating with Turkish society more then any other society around .

I mean you are accusing Turks of treating Kurds the same way the Israelis are treating Palestinians .

This is evidently not true . Just take a one look at the way the Iraqi Kurds are treated by Turkish government , then you can see that this is a relationship of equals .

As for Turkish Kurds , well , Turks did elect a Kurdish President , Prime ministers and currently Turkey has more then 150 Kurdish MP's and several ministers are all Kurdish Turks .

I really don't see the equal treatment of Palestinians by the Hebrews .

I wish I did see it but I don't I am afraid . On the other hand , I do have distant cousins in Israel who are muslims , who do serve in IDF and who do get equal treatment by Israeli ordinary people .

Israel has to have peacefull approaches to her neighbours who don't harbour any malicious plans towards Israel .

Turkey was one of these neighbours and the Turks are not going to " hate " Israelis , no matter what .

Turks were only pointing out the existence of claims of other peoples in the area which overlaps Cypriot and Israeli cliams .
Just Yesterday , Lebanon condemn Israel about these gas claim areas and the operation of drilling .

Middle East politics is rather different then Western politics , eh ?

Originally posted by CerBeRus666
All Countries of the World that dare call themselves "Democracies" should have cut all relations with Turkey (or do they still see themselves as the Ottoman Empire?) long ago. Only Political/Military hypocrisy has kept this most vile State from answering for it's crimes against humanity:
- The massacre and illegal occupation of Albanian people, and land.
- It's constant imperialistic moves in the Mediterranean sea, specially against Greece.
- Most importantly, it's continued repression, occupation, and genocide of the Kurdish people.

It's time for the "Sick Man Of Europe" to die, and if the EU wants to hammer a couple of nails into the coffin of this most vicious of Nations, good for them (whomever "they" happen to be).

Free Kurdistan! Free occupied Cyprus! Restitution of all occupied Albanian land!

This post makes my point rather succintly .
Advocating the genocide of Turks because allegedly Turks already are genociders .

I mean really .....

Albanian Turks would not take you seriously I am afraid .

For realities sake , independent march of Turks actually was written by an Albanian .



There few million Albanian origin Turks and they would know what to do with your views .

Before Turkey joins EU, Greece will be kicked out. xaxaxaxa