Was Jesus Really Tempted by Satan?

reply to post by windword


I totally agree that the Christianity that Rome adopted at the Council of Nicea bears little resemblance to the simple teachings of Jesus. Most of these adopted tenets had more to do with Babylonian, Egyptian and Roman teachings than anything from the Scriptures.

In fact the Apostles foretold that this is exactly what would indeed happen after their deaths and we see this.....

..... with the adoption of Christmas being incorporated as Jesus' birthday to tie in with the Roman festival of Saturnalia & all the ancient pagan mid winter ceremonies of the solstice etc...... (Acts 20:28-30) 28 Pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed YOU overseers, to shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own [Son]. 29 I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among YOU and will not treat the flock with tenderness, 30 and from among YOU yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.

Including in this was the seperate priestly class and the rule of celibacy of the clergy, which was not a Biblical teaching at all. I could write for hours on the adoption of non Biblical teachings into the Church of Rome's idea of Christianity.

(1 Timothy 4:1-3) 4 However, the inspired utterance says definitely that in later periods of time some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired utterances and teachings of demons, 2 by the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, marked in their conscience as with a branding iron; 3 forbidding to marry, commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be partaken of with thanksgiving by those who have faith and accurately know the truth.

Jesus taught a simple faith based of love of neighbour and of God and teaching the good news of God's government on earth to come...

Whilst on the earth he forthrightly condemned the Pharisees for their hypocrisy & lies....

(Matthew 23:23-28) 23 “Woe to YOU, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because YOU give the tenth of the mint and the dill and the cumin, but YOU have disregarded the weightier matters of the Law, namely, justice and mercy and faithfulness. These things it was binding to do, yet not to disregard the other things........

 “Woe to YOU, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because YOU resemble whitewashed graves, which outwardly indeed appear beautiful but inside are full of dead men’s bones and of every sort of uncleanness. 28 In that way YOU also, outwardly indeed, appear righteous to men, but inside YOU are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness"

It is true that Jesue account of his temptation by Satan cannot be proved, however by stating that the account was false, then you are stating that not only was Jesus a liar but a hypocrit because of his condemnation of the Pharisees & Jewish hierarchy for twisting the truth for their own ends, whilst on the Earth. He would therefore have been carrying out the same acts that he so forthrightly condemned them for, which led to his ultimate death at their hands...

"(John 8:44-47) . . .YOU are from YOUR father the Devil, and YOU wish to do the desires of YOUR father. That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of [the lie]. 45 Because I, on the other hand, tell the truth, YOU do not believe me. 46 Who of YOU convicts me of sin? If I speak truth, why is it YOU do not believe me? 47 He that is from God listens to the sayings of God. This is why YOU do not listen, because YOU are not from God.”

reply to post by JB1234

It is true that Jesue account of his temptation by Satan cannot be proved, however by stating that the account was false, then you are stating that not only was Jesus a liar but a hypocrit because of his condemnation of the Pharisees & Jewish hierarchy for twisting the truth for their own ends, whilst on the Earth. He would therefore have been carrying out the same acts that he so forthrightly condemned them for, which led to his ultimate death at their hands...

Jesus being able to recognize that the Pharisees were pure evil doesn't reflect on whether or not he was tempted by Satan.

Some of the questions summed up in this thread are:

If Jesus was God, how could he be tempted by his own creation?
If Jesus was the son of God, how could he possibly be tempted by his brother, Satan, because Satan is also known as a son of God in the book of Job.
Was Satan privy to God's plan? If not maybe Satan was the one being tempted by Jesus.
Was Satan trying to bargain with Jesus in order to prevent his own demise?
What really happened in the desert? Did Jesus loose faith, and fall into temptation, which he overcame?
Was he never tempted at all, and teased Satan in the desert?

I am in no way calling Jesus a liar, but how was the story told by Jesus? Some have said it was coaxed out of him by curious disciples, maybe he bragged about kicking some satanic arse. We don't know.

Was this the only time Jesus was tempted. Was he sexually aroused at any point? Did he marry and have to temper himself as all husbands must do? Was he ever really tempted in life, and what are the ramifications of further temptation beside hunger in the desert.

By Satan offering all his kingdom to Jesus, does that mean he was tempted by greed? Or he was NOT tempted by greed, ergo no temptation.

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by JB1234

 

Jesus being able to recognize that the Pharisees were pure evil doesn't reflect on whether or not he was tempted by Satan.

Of course it reflects on whether he was tempted by Satan. If Jesus was telling lies, how could he condemn the Pharisees for being liars. That would have made him a hypocrit and a liar.

If Jesus was God, how could he be tempted by his own creation?

Good question....The Bible states that he was God's son. Jesus prayed to his Heavenly Father whilst he was on Earth. Why would he do that if he was the same person?

If Jesus was the son of God, how could he possibly be tempted by his brother, Satan, because Satan is also known as a son of God in the book of Job.

Satan was a son of God all the angels are including Jesus..... It's just that Jesus was created as the Firstborn son and was special.....the Bible says Satan was also created by God as one of the foremost in heaven. However he clearly envied God's power over humanity and conspired to make mankind turn against their Creator. He therefore made himself a Devil or Satan. In Job ALL the angels are called the Sons of God. It's just some turned against God and followed Satan.

Was Satan privy to God's plan?

Satan knew about the prophecy spoken of in Genesis about the two seeds and that Jesus was to be bruised in the heel. Satan quoted scripture at Jesus, so knows the Bible. It's clear from Proverbs 27 V 11 that Satan taunts Jehovah about mankind only worshipping him for what they can get out of him.

If not maybe Satan was the one being tempted by Jesus

.

the Greek work for Devil di‧a′bo‧los means “slanderer.” Satan is the chief adversary of God. It was and is his plan to usurp God's plans to redeem mankind. Why would Jesus need to tempt Satan? As in the account of Job Satan tried to make Job curse God. Paul explain his role also (2 Corinthians 11:3) 3 "But I am afraid that somehow, as the serpent (Satan) seduced Eve by its cunning, YOUR minds might be corrupted away from the sincerity and the chastity that are due the Christ"

Was Satan trying to bargain with Jesus in order to prevent his own demise?

I would say not. The sons of God who have chosen to follow Satan - the demons know their fate as can be seen from (Luke 8:30-31) . . ."Jesus asked him: “What is your name?” He said: “Legion,” because many demons had entered into him. 31 And they kept entreating him not to order them to go away into the abyss"

(James 2:19) . . ."You believe there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder"

What really happened in the desert? Did Jesus loose faith, and fall into temptation, which he overcame?
Was he never tempted at all, and teased Satan in the desert?

I am in no way calling Jesus a liar, but how was the story told by Jesus? Some have said it was coaxed out of him by curious disciples, maybe he bragged about kicking some satanic arse. We don't know.

Jesus could have relaid events to his disciples or indeed angels who the Bible say tended to Jesus after he had been in the wilderness for many days could have "inspired" the Bible writers to put this account down. The Bible itself claims to be the Word of God, not just a writing of men... (2 Timothy 3:16) 16 All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight. . .

Matther, Mark & Luke refer to this event as being real.

Whether you or anyone else believes this account or indeed any other accounts about Jesus is surely up to each individual.

Was this the only time Jesus was tempted. Was he sexually aroused at any point? Did he marry and have to temper himself as all husbands must do? Was he ever really tempted in life, and what are the ramifications of further temptation beside hunger in the desert.

By Satan offering all his kingdom to Jesus, does that mean he was tempted by greed? Or he was NOT tempted by greed, ergo no temptation.

Satan tried a number of temptations... he offered Jesus power over the whole Earth, he offered him material things to satisfy his physical needs. He tempted him also to question and test God's power. On each occasion Jesus answered Satan with a scripture. "It is written...".at the end of the account in Luke it's interesting to read (Luke 4:13) . . .So the Devil, having concluded all the temptation, retired from him until another convenient time.

Jesus was a man and no doubt would have felt all the physical aspects of being a man. Perhaps he was tempted to marry and lead a normal life. However Jesus knew he had a special commission to carry out Jehovah's will. He proved unlike Adam that a man can remain faithful to God no matter what.

Originally posted by metaldemon2000
I don't think the words of Jesus were meant to be taken literally. However organized religion has taken the opportunity to present it as science fact so they could control the masses.

Thats Not all they use to control the masses. They use everything including you and me and everyone you come into contact with.

Isnt that cool?

reply to post by JB1234

Of course it reflects on whether he was tempted by Satan. If Jesus was telling lies, how could he condemn the Pharisees for being liars. That would have made him a hypocrit and a liar.

How would the Pharisee know about Jesus' "vision quest" in the desert? How would they know about his conversation with Satan? How would they know about his private battle with temptation?

I'ts really a stretch to say that IF it didn't happen, or Jesus wasn't temtped, or Jesus didn't speak of his experience with Satan, and his private conversation about his heavenly father and his faith having been challenged, then the pharisees could undermine his work or his words? That doesn't make sense to me.

Was Satan trying to bargain with Jesus in order to prevent his own demise?



I would say not. The sons of God who have chosen to follow Satan - the demons know their fate as can be seen from (Luke 8:30-31) . . ."Jesus asked him: “What is your name?” He said: “Legion,” because many demons had entered into him. 31 And they kept entreating him not to order them to go away into the abyss"

That doesn't answer the question. If Jesus wasn't tempted, and Satan saw that he was loosing the battle, he may have said "Listen, can't we work someting out? What say I give you all THIS, and you square me with the big guy upstairs?" And Jesus said something like, "No, it is written, blah blah, you made your bed, now sleep in it!"

Jesus could have relaid events to his disciples or indeed angels who the Bible say tended to Jesus after he had been in the wilderness for many days could have "inspired" the Bible writers to put this account down. The Bible itself claims to be the Word of God, not just a writing of men... (2 Timothy 3:16) 16 All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight. . .

Angles could have relayed the event to the disciples? That's a stretch, but not impossible.

I don't believe the Bible to be the "Word" of God. Putting that in the scriptures is convenient, but not realistic. The Bible we have now, the Holy Scriptures" are not the ones that Timothy was referring to. He certainly wasn't saying that his words were the words of God, and couldn't know that they would be cannonized and turned into a religion that would terrorize the planet.

Jesus was a man and no doubt would have felt all the physical aspects of being a man. Perhaps he was tempted to marry and lead a normal life. However Jesus knew he had a special commission to carry out Jehovah's will. He proved unlike Adam that a man can remain faithful to God no matter what.

I don't think that "they" want to you to think that. The charactor that the Roman Catholic Church portrays was not just a man. The only tempation that they want you to think about is the one in the desert. They don't want you know that he may have loved pickled fish more than matza. Or, that he may have had fights with his brothers growing up. Or, that he was in love with Mary Magdelene, and probably married her.

Jewish law does not promote bachelorhood and insisted on their leaders having a family before being allowed to become a Rabbi, the thought being that you must be in be in control your own house before you can control a house of God. Jesus would be considered irresponsible to not follow the Law and marry. In all probability, the disciples had wives as well.

Who Called Jesus Rabbi?

From the Biblical record, we have note of 7 different groups/types of people who refer to Jesus as “Rabbi” or “Teacher” (the rough translation): His disciples (Mark 9:5, Mark 11:21 etc.); Pharisees (John 3:1-2); John the Baptist’s disciples (John 1:35-38); Common people (Mark 10:51, John 6:24-25); Torah teachers (Matthew 8:19); Herodians (Luke 3:12); and the Sadducees (Matthew 22:23-32). Additionally, he refers to himself by this title (John 13:12-14, Luke 22:10-11).

From fishingtheabyss.com

I consider Jesus not to be God or the Son of God, any more than I am. He was a charismatic speaker, teacher, healer who taught the mysteries of Jewish mysticism, including reincarnation, whose message lives on. He was the son of a carpenter. He was not born of a virgin and was not resurrected. That is my belief, but I respect yours.

Ref: The ‘Jesian’ Temptation in the Desert –

These stories are NOT found in the 4th canonical Greek Gospel ‘according to Yohanon’ whoever he was…but only in the 1st three ‘synoptic’ canonical Greek gospels….

Within the language of the Greek canonical gospels we see the language of Spirit/Daemon Summoning (being led by the 4 winds etc.) & ritual daemonic banishment following the Daemon Summoning (‘get thee behind me…and he left him…’)

These kinds of midrashic expansion traditions (cf: ‘the Midrashim of The Messiah’) which led ‘more mainstream’ 2nd Temple Judaeism during his lifetime to label R. Yehoshua bar Yosef a ‘Sorcerer of spells who consorted with daemons and led the sons of Yisro’el astray…’ cf: the Talmudic writings about him.

(Other magical aspects include the use of Magical Spells to raise the dead, e.g. ‘Talitha Qumi’ or spitting into the eyes of a blind man in the 2nd canonical Greek gospel ‘according to Mark’ whoever he was – read chapter 8:22 ff

‘And he comes to Beth Saida; and lo, they bring a blind man unto Iesous and they are begging him to lay his hands upon him – then Iesous takes the Blind Man by the Hand and leads him out of the Village apart and then he begins to spit into his eyes and to place his hands upon them…’

Healings in 1st century Palestine were linked to daemon exorcisms – since illness was thought to be caused by possession – (cf: the ‘exorcism’ of Peter’s mother in law of a ‘fever-daemon’ in the second canonical Greek gospel ‘according to Mark’ )

Deserts in the 1st century in Palestine (including the Wilderness of Judaea = Qumran-Dead Sea Scrolls area) were associated with Daemons and also Daemonic wild-animals e.g. Jackals.

Here below are the 3 ‘synoptic’ accounts of ‘the Temptation in the Desert’ found in the Synoptic accts– Notice how the 2nd ‘gospel of Mark’ is the earliest /shortest – without reference to the midrashic ‘Old Testament Aramaic-scriptural’ underpinnings of Q (those verses shared by ‘Matthew’ and ‘Luke’ but omitted by ‘Mark’)

The Hebrew RUACH could mean either ‘sprit’ or ‘wind’ (or ‘god’) and typically it is a windy-airy spirit who ‘leads’ a prophet (cf: the 4th canonical ‘gospel of Yohanon’ = ‘The Wind blows where it wills, so it every one born of the Wind’ or = ‘the Spirit blows where it blows, so too is every son of man born of the Spirit…)

We see the same type of imagery in the Anti Nicene quotations from the Gospel of the Hebrews in the 2nd century AD (‘And he said to them, Just now my Mother the Holy Spirit led me by one of my Hairs on my beard to great Mount Tabor….’ an Aramaic Midrash on the Targum of Judges 4:6)

ORIGINAL SHORTER FORM of the TEMPTATION STORY:

Mark 1:12-13 - Immediately the Wind led him out into the wilderness, and he was in the desert forty days, being tempted by Satan. He was with the wild animals, and angels attended him.

LONGER ‘Quelle’ ADDITIONS of ‘Matthew’ (cf: Luke chapter 4)

Matthew 4:1-11 - Then Iesous was led BY THE WIND into the Desert to be tempted by the devil and to prepare [for it ] he fasted forty days and forty nights, and afterwards he was famished. The tempter came and said to him, "If you are [the King of the Judaeans] the Son of the Blessed One, then command these stones to become bread loaves"

But Iesous answered him saying ,’Lo, is it not written: 'the son of man does not live by bread alone, but by every Debir (‘oracle’) that falls from the mouth of EL?' " (cf. Targum of Deut 8:3cd) -

Then the devil took him to the holy city and placed him on the Parapet of the Temple, saying, "If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down; for is it not written, 'He will command his angels concerning you,' and 'On their hands they will bear you up, so that you will not dash your foot against a stone? ' " (cf. Ps 91:11-12) 7

But Iesous answered him saying "But is it not also written, 'You will not put YHWH your clan-god to any test ?' " (cf. Targum of Deut 6:16)

Then the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor; 9 and he said to him, "All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me." 10 Jesus said to him,

"Get away with you, Satanas ! for it is also written [in the Shemaq] , 'Hear o Yisro’el, YHWH is your clan god, YHWH alone, and him alone you will serve !’ cf. Targum of Deut 6:13

Then the Devil left him, and immediately ‘he summoned the Messengers’ (angels?) who appeared in order that they might wait on him.

Interestingly, some later Jewish Tanaitic rebbes said about the coming of King Messiah

"Our Rebbes related that in the hour when the Messiah shall be revealed to Yisro’el, he shall come and stand on the roof (šbyt – ‘parapet’) of the Temple in Jerusalem."

(Peshiqta Rabbati 62 c-d) - so there is a clear rabinnic haggadic legendary midrashic element throughout these stories based on OT verses, not to be 'literalised' as history...

reply to post by Sigismundus


WOW! A poster who know his/her stuff! Thanks, very informative. So Jesus was also a great shaman of Jewish mysticism. The temptation event appears to be an spiritual initiation rite, during a vision quest, rather than "temptation."

Based on the story told about the temptation, the argument put forward by Satan seems to be "If your all that, prove it!" Jesus doesn't seem to have the need to prove anything to Satan.

In addition:

Then the Devil left him, and immediately ‘he summoned the Messengers’ (angels?) who appeared in order that they might wait on him.

Jesus wasn't tempted by hunger, to turn the stones to bread. All he had to do was summon the angels.

Finally why oh why would Jesus kneel to and worship Satan. What possible motivation would he have, knowing he already had it all? Unless, it was a bargain, "You do this, I give you that. You don't die and God sets things straight with me, Satan.

Originally posted by windword

reply to post by JB1234

 

Of course it reflects on whether he was tempted by Satan. If Jesus was telling lies, how could he condemn the Pharisees for being liars. That would have made him a hypocrit and a liar.

How would the Pharisee know about Jesus' "vision quest" in the desert? How would they know about his conversation with Satan? How would they know about his private battle with temptation?

I'ts really a stretch to say that IF it didn't happen, or Jesus wasn't temtped, or Jesus didn't speak of his experience with Satan, and his private conversation about his heavenly father and his faith having been challenged, then the pharisees could undermine his work or his words? That doesn't make sense to me.

That wasn't what I meant at all. What I was saying that if this account hadn't happened and Jesus if he did recount these events of being tempted in wilderness by Satan to his disciples, then his condemnation of the Pharisee for being liars & hypocrits over other matters later on would have made him a hypocrit and a liar. Can't you see what I'm getting at?

That doesn't answer the question. If Jesus wasn't tempted, and Satan saw that he was losing the battle, he may have said "Listen, can't we work someting out? What say I give you all THIS, and you square me with the big guy upstairs?" And Jesus said something like, "No, it is written, blah blah, you made your bed, now sleep in it!"

The whole context of the Bible from Genesis to Revelation shows that Satan and his organisation are at enmity with God and his organisation. Satan knows his fate however he is angry and will try and turn as many against God as he can. I could quote many scriptures backing this up, but you will just say they are not to be beleived, so there's little point.

I don't believe the Bible to be the "Word" of God. Putting that in the scriptures is convenient, but not realistic. The Bible we have now, the Holy Scriptures" are not the ones that Timothy was referring to. He certainly wasn't saying that his words were the words of God, and couldn't know that they would be cannonized and turned into a religion that would terrorize the planet.

The apostle Paul wrote both of the letters to Timothy. Paul who was a Roman citizen and a lawyer wrote more books included in the Greek scriptures than anyone else. He most certainly did make mention that his words came from God in his 2nd letter to the Corinthian congregation...... (2 Corinthians 12:1) 12 I have to boast. It is not beneficial; but I shall pass on to supernatural visions and revelations of [the] Lord" Paul stated "ALL scripture is inspired of God"....but if you wish to disbeleive his words then of course that is your choice

Jewish law does not promote bachelorhood and insisted on their leaders having a family before being allowed to become a Rabbi, the thought being that you must be in be in control your own house before you can control a house of God. Jesus would be considered irresponsible to not follow the Law and marry. In all probability, the disciples had wives as well.

Paul as a Christian set the standard for the Older Men of the congregations when he stated (1 Timothy 3:2-4) . . .The overseer should therefore be irreprehensible, a husband of one wife, moderate in habits, sound in mind, orderly, hospitable, qualified to teach...etc. Therefore it was not wrong to marry at all. Peter's mother in law is mentioned in the Scriptures also. As the Church of Rome states he was the first Pope, their viewpoint on a celebate preisthood as I said in an earlier post is false.Some of the disciples did indeed have wives.

However Jesus chose not to have a wife surely because he knew he had to die and lay down his life for mankind. He would have known how hard it had been for his mother Mary losing her husband. It would have surely been selfish for Jesus to have taken a wife to fulfill any sexual desires. One of his last acts before he died on the torture stake was to entrust the care of his mother to his disciple John. Leaving a wife and perhaps children would have made it difficult for them. Also Jesus only preached for about 3 and a half years after he was baptised, so he had important things to accomplish in a short space of time.

edit on 24-9-2011 by JB1234 because: Added for context

edit on 24-9-2011 by JB1234 because: (no reason given)

Also it's interesting that Satan offered Jesus not just rulership of all the Kingdoms of the Earth but also their Glory. Jesus turned down power, rulership along with fame and fortune. Satan was able to offer Jesus this because the Bible teaches that he actually is behind earth's rulerships...

As we can see from other scriptures....(Ephesians 2:1-2) . . ."Furthermore, [it is] YOU [God made alive] though YOU were dead in YOUR trespasses and sins, 2 in which YOU at one time walked according to the system of things of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, the spirit that now operates in the sons of disobedience. . ."

(John 12:31) . . .Now there is a judging of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.

Both scriptures talking about Satan.

reply to post by JB1234

Hi JB1234

I take it you cannot read 1st century Koine Greek, from your mis-translation of 2 Tim 3:16 (most of which was NOT written by Saul of Tarsus, but was added to by a later writer, using a later Greek literary-syntactical style & had a different Weltanschauung from the writer of e.g. the Epistle to the Romans or 1 Corinithians or Galatians, which WERE all written (with some small additions) by the same person).

Here is a better translation into modern English of the non-Pauline addition to: 2 Timothy 3:16

"All writings THAT ARE god-breathed (i.e. 'inspired') are useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting & the training for a righteous life - so that any slave of Theos (i.e. the god of the Jews, YHWH) might be equipped for any beneficial Mitzvoth…" ('commandments' i.e. good works)

It does NOT say 'all scripture is god-breathed...' - so a good idea for you would be to take a Greek class and learn some basic 1st Century Koine Greek Syntax.

Not that the sentence is actual Pauline anyway. It does not match his Greek style.

From his other ‘authentic’ writings, (e.g. 1 Corinthians, Romans, 1 Thessalonians, Philemon, Galatians) we can see that Saul of Tarsus (aka ‘Paulos’) at any rate did NOT believe in ‘salvation by works’ (‘Mitzvoth’ or ‘Ma’aseh ha Torah’ but in ‘Emunah’ ‘i.e. faithfulness’ ) and the Greek style / content is NOT Paul's here in this passage.

But the Greek DOES NOT SAY ‘all scripture is inspired’ – there was NOT a canon of scripture foor Jews and early Christians even to believe in before c. 150 CE (they were still arguing about whether 'Esther' and 'Henoch', Job' and "Hezekiel' as 'were books which defile the hands' i.e. were 'sacred writings')

Literally, the term scripture (Gr. 'Graphe') is anything 'written down' - from a Medical Prescription to a list of male-temple-prostitutes - so anyone who thinks ALL writings are 'god-breathed' is out of touch with what we call 'Reality'.

Palestinian Jews (and those 'scattered amongst the Gentiles in Asia') as well as the very earliest 'Christians' at the time of Saul of Tarsus (who probably died during the Neronian Persecution c. 64 CE) did NOT have a single holy canonical LIST of the Old Testament books compiled yet :

The 11 oldest Caves at Qumran, the so-called Dead Sea Scrolls , were sealed up in ‘time capsules’ in June of 68 CE during the 1st Failed Jewish War against Rome (c. 66-72 CE) preserving the ‘mangled contradictory hand copied texts’ of the Hebrew scriptures in at least 4 versions side by side as the ‘Hebrew bible’ had existed in 68 CE before the Council at Javneh after the War (c. 90 CE) imposed the proto-Masoretic Text version of the OT (unvowelled/unpointed) on all surviving Jews, burning all the other copies –

The only reason we know of a pre-Jamnia/pre-Javneh texts is that the Council did NOT know that early copies were safely sealed away in nearby caves (all off them hand-copied between BCE 300 and 68 CE, and preserving many of the earliest ‘scriptural’ readings) of their Scriptures (including a lot of OTHER books that never got ‘voted in’ as the canon of Scripture for the Jews after 150 CE, e.g. the Book of the Words of Henoch, the Book of the Divisions of the Times into their Jubilees & Weeks (i.e. the Testament of Moses aka’ Jubilees’), The Testament of the 12 Patriarchs Being the Sons of Yakkov to all the Sons of Light in the Last Days, The Wisdom of Iesous Ben-Sirach (aka Ecclesiasticus), Susanna, Tobit, Judith, Bel and the Dragon, etc. ).

So before 90 CE in Palestine OR in Asia Minor there was NO SINGLE LIST of actual ‘holy Hebrew scriptures that defiled the hands’ (i.e. a canon of sacred books) and before 90 CE there was NO SINGLE VERSION of ‘holy Hebrew scriptures that defiled the hands’ (i.e. a single masoretic text, which was not finalized until 1000CE as we see in the ‘pointed’ Leningrad MT Codex of the mediaeval Massoretes.

The actual contents of the Time Capsules of the Dead Sea Scroll Caves 1-11 prove that this list of ‘holy books that defile the hands’ (i.e. a canonical list of ‘holy Scriptures’ ) for the Jews was still ‘fluid’ during the time of R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean (c. 12 BCE to 36 CE) and later during the life-time of Saul of Tarsus (c. 12 CE to c. 64 CE) and also that the versions of these texts were also ‘fluid’ (see the Hebrew consonantal textual underlay (Vorlag) to the LXX Greek Septuaginta of the Hebrew Bible (c. BCE 150 to AD 100) out of Alexandria and compare that consonantal textual Hebrew underlay to those used by Theodotion or Symmachus or Aquilla in the early 2nd century – they don’t match the later Masoretic text (counting letter for letter) by as much as 17% on average (that is 17 letters out of 100 letters are DIFFERENT, often forming different words and phrases – and STILL NO VOWELLS added !!)

reply to post by JB1234


reply to post by Sigismundus


The two letters to Timothy have been accepted from the earliest times as written by Paul and as being part of the inspired Scriptures. The early Christian writers, including Polycarp, Ignatius, and Clement of Rome, all agree on this, and the letters are included in the catalogs of the first few centuries as Paul’s writings. One authority writes: “There are few N[ew] T[estament] writings which have stronger attestation . . . Objections to authenticity must therefore be regarded as modern innovations contrary to the strong evidence from the early church.”

The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. I, page 6, “The First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians,” chap. V.
New Bible Dictionary, second edition, 1986, edited by J. D. Douglas, page 1203.

The compound Greek word the‧o′pneu‧stos, meaning, literally, “God-breathed” or “breathed by God.” as you state

Latin translations use Di‧vi′ni‧tus in‧spi‧ra′ta; (Hebrew beru′ach ʼElo‧him′, “by God’s spirit".

This is the only occurrence of this Greek term in the Scriptures. Its use here clearly identifies God as the Source and Producer of the Sacred Scriptures, the Bible. Their being “God-breathed” finds some parallel in the expression found in the Hebrew Scriptures at Psalm 33:6: “By the word of Jehovah the heavens themselves were made, and by the spirit [or breath] of his mouth all their army.”

The Apostle Peter also stated a similar explanation for the origin of Bible writings

(2 Peter 1:20-21) 20 "For YOU know this first, that no prophecy of Scripture springs from any private interpretation. 21 For prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were borne along by holy spirit" .

2 Tim 3:16 is entirely in keeping with another statement that Paul wrote in his letter to Titus (Titus 1:9) "9 holding firmly to the faithful word as respects his [art of] teaching, that he may be able both to exhort by the teaching that is healthful and to reprove those who contradict"

King David credits his writings also to God...(2 Samuel 23:2)  "2 The spirit of Jehovah it was that spoke by me, And his word was upon my tongue"

Jesus also refers to David writing "by inspiration" when quoting from Psalm 110 (Matthew 22:43) "He said to them: “How, then, is it that David by inspiration calls him ‘Lord,’ saying" . . Literally translated "in spirit.” The parallel passage in Mark 12:36 reads “by the holy spirit.”

Therefore a translation of "is inspired of God" in 2 Tim 3:16 seems a perfectly valid translation of the text and entirely in keeping with other writings and the message behind those words.

Even if the Jews bickered before or after Pauls time as to which books should be included in the Hebrew scriptures...It is clear that at the time of Jesus he quoted many times from the Hebrew scrolls and also at the time of the Apostles that there was an accepted form of Holy Scriptures because Paul testifies to praising the Beroeans for checking the Scriptures to see if what he was saying to them was in harmony with those holy wirtings and true....(Acts 17:11) . . ."Now the latter were more noble-minded than those in Thes‧sa‧lo‧ni′ca, for they received the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so"

Many Bible critics have demeened the Scriptures as fables and oral half truths of history handed down by Jewish elders and family heads.... however the Bible makes a number of mentions that the Israelites even children should be able to read & write. We know that Moses wrote the commandments on stone tablets that were kept in the Ark of the Covenant. Indeed the Hebrew scriptures mention other ancient books that the Jews had in their possession at one time.

This was scoffed at... until in July 2005, archaeologists digging at Tel Zayit, a hill site outside of Jerusalem, found what appears to be the oldest Hebrew alphabet inscription on the wall of an ancient building. Scholars who have reviewed the inscription have suggested that it dates to the 10th century BCE, around the time of the United Kingdom of ancient Israel. If archaeologists and researchers are correct, this inscription is the oldest reliably dated example of an abecedary - the letters of the alphabet written out in their traditional sequence - and is one of the most compelling discoveries regarding the history of writing

reply to post by JB1234
Hi JB1234

It is obvious you have no Koine Greek and probably even less Aramaic or Hebrew. Do you know what a HAPAX LEGOMENON is? If not, Google it and see if you can learn what it is.

Here, I’ll help you: a ‘HAPAX’ is a Rare Word or set of rare words that ONLY occur ONCE within a given text or set of texts. It is the marker by which e.g. Pauline forgeries are able to be spotted.

Saul of Tarsus’ epistolary correspondence was HAND COPIED by others over the centuries and hold to-day many ADDITIONS and possibly SUBTRACTIONS. The additions to his original text can usually be spotted at once by scholars if they contain an INORDINATE number of HAPAX LEGOMENA (i.e. words or phrases he never uses).

1-2 Timothy are part of what is known as the Pastoral Epistles, and are NOT (that is, NOT in ANY WAY) Pauline, but are pseudo-Pauline – and have been recognized as such since the middle of the 19th century by scholars who DO read 1st century Koine Greek and know Paul’s own peculiar Greek Style and Weltanschauung very very very well (which apparently you DO NOT).

This is not to say that there are not snippets within the ‘pastoral epistles’ that are not Pauline fragments – we see the same kind of thing going on in II Corinithians, which is a compilation of at least FOUR shorter Pauline letters all smashed into one Epistle ‘by Paul’ often stitched together by link words or ‘catch-words’ like the words concerning SALT and FIRE placed into the mouth of a Greek speaking Iesous in the 2nd canonical Greek gospel (‘according to Mark;’ whoever he was, chapter 9:49-51

2 Timothy probably was ORIGINALLY a shortish letter resembling Philemon without all the ‘Testament’ tangents i.e. later, non Pauline additions (resembling the death bed confessions of the Patriarchs in the Testaments of the 12, one of the books found at Qumran in 1946 that the earliest Christians held as ‘sacred canon’ before being voted out of the Christian and Jewish Bible later)

The 2 Timothy additions are full of Hapax Legomena, and are non-Pauline accretions: but you have to be able to read Koine Greek to spot them...unfortunately you are groping around in the dark on these matters...

2 Timothy may have originally looked something like this before some later 2ndd century writer added a different Greek style to the text:

Paul, an Apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God to Timothy, my dear son: Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ .Each night and every day when I am thanking God I constantly REMEMBER you in my prayers.

Catch word: REMEMBER -

Remembering your tears, I long to see you, so that I may be filled with joy.

Cartch words: verbs for REMEMBER & GUARD leads to another Catch Word: DESERTED

I am in REMEMBERANCE of your pure faith, which first lived in your grandmother Lois and in your mother Eunice – thus I remind you to GUARD the cash-deposit that was entrusted to yoy for you know that everyone in the Asian Province has DESERTED me, including Phygelus and Hermogenes. Alexander the metalworker did me a great deal of harm. May the Lord repay him for what he has done. You too should be on your GUARD against him, because he strongly opposed our message. 16

At my first defense, no one came to my support, but everyone DESERTED me. But the Lord stood at my side and gave me strength so that I was delivered from the lion’s mouth. May the Lord bless the house of Onesiphorus, because he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chains. 17 On the contrary, when he was in Rome, he searched hard for me until he found me. 18

Catch Word : DESERTED

Do your best to come to me quickly, 10 for Demas, because he loved this world, HAS DESERTED me and has gone to Thessalonica. Crescens has gone to Galatia, and Titus to Dalmatia. 11 Only Luke is with me. Get Mark and bring him with you, because he is helpful to me in my ministry. 12 I sent Tychicus to Ephesus. 13

Further Original shorter Pauline Letter Scraps in 2 Timothy

When you come, bring the cloak that I left with Carpus at Troas, and my scrolls, especially the parchments For the time for my departure is near. Greet Priscilla and Aquila and the household of Onesiphorus. 20 Erastus stayed in Corinth, and I left Trophimus sick in Miletus. 21 Do your best to get here before winter. Eubulus greets you, and so do Pudens, Linus, Claudia and all the brothers and sisters. Grace be with you all. ...:"

Later non-Pauline 'pious' addtions to hand written copies of letters of Paul were common in the 2nd and 3rd centuries when his writings took on more 'authoritative' power (they were not at first considered special in wider Christian churches before 170 CE - only held as sared text by specifically the Pauline churches).

So you do NOT have a leg to stand on - I'll address your other misconceptions on another post...

reply to post by Sigismundus


Tell me does it make you feel important insulting other people?

I really do not feel the need to try and prove my own self importance by trying to claim that someone else in MY humble OPINION is mistaken and of somehow lower intelligence.

I simply refuse to discuss with any poster who feels the need to conduct themselves in that manner.

The Bible quite clearly warns that the words written in the Scriptures should not be added to or subtracted from, which is a subject no one seems to address when they argue that this bit was added later.

You have completely ignored the fact that the early Christian writers, including Polycarp, Ignatius, and Clement of Rome who all spoke the common Greek of the day presumably, all agree on this, and the letters are included in the catalogs of the first few centuries as Paul’s writings.

Jesus, David & Peter also reaffirmed Paul's words that "All Scripture is inspired of God"

In any case this is entirely off topic and I am certainly not going to base my reasoning on that of 19th Century scholars, who chose to make themselves out to be higher critiques of the Bible, where perhaps they chose to consider parts of the Scriptures didn't fit in with their particular viewpoints.



.

You read in Matthew Chapter 4, when Our Lord was tempted by Satan, he quoted Scripture.

This isn't off topic and very important when you see the times and the purity of the
youth destroyed by pornography. A Catholic apologist and father, Steve Wood shared the above when you are tempted by pornography, pray a verse from Scripture.

And Steve spoke of Psalm 119, verse 9...I think. I'll have to look it up. Men, please
remember, do as Jesus did when Satan attacked Him. Pray a verse from Scripture,
you could choose the same as Our Lord, the words in Matt 4:7 or Matt 4:10.


Matthew 4: 1:10
[Then Jesus was led by the spirit into the desert, to be tempted by the devil. [2] And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, afterwards he was hungry. [3] And the tempter coming said to him: If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. [4] Who answered and said: It is written, Not in bread alone doth man live, but in every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God. [5] Then the devil took him up into the holy city, and set him upon the pinnacle of the temple,
And said to him: If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down, for it is written: That he hath given his angels charge over thee, and in their hands shall they bear thee up, lest perhaps thou dash thy foot against a stone. [7] Jesus said to him: It is written again: Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. [8] Again the devil took him up into a very high mountain, and shewed him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them, [9] And said to him: All these will I give thee, if falling down thou wilt adore me. [10] Then Jesus saith to him: Begone, Satan: for it is written, The Lord thy God shalt thou adore, and him only shalt thou serve.

Speaking of the Early Church Fathers. Logic not even faith is required, would tell you to look at the belief of the first Christians, especially those Christians taught by the Apostles.

This is a great site, according to subject, quotes from the Early Church Fathers, the Fathers know best.

archive.catholic.com...

reply to post by windword


I think its about as likely as Zeus impregnating a virgin while disguised as "shower of gold."

In other words, pure mythology and symbolism, which is wonderful as is, and does not require some kind of scientific proof or belief system to justify it.

Originally posted by colbe
You read in Matthew Chapter 4, when Our Lord was tempted by Satan, he quoted Scripture.

This isn't off topic and very important when you see the times and the purity of the
youth destroyed by pornography. A Catholic apologist and father, Steve Wood shared the above when you are tempted by pornography, pray a verse from Scripture.

And Steve spoke of Psalm 119, verse 9...I think. I'll have to look it up. Men, please
remember, do as Jesus did when Satan attacked Him. Pray a verse from Scripture,
you could choose the same as Our Lord, the words in Matt 4:7 or Matt 4:10.


Matthew 4: 1:10
[Then Jesus was led by the spirit into the desert, to be tempted by the devil. [2] And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, afterwards he was hungry. [3] And the tempter coming said to him: If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. [4] Who answered and said: It is written, Not in bread alone doth man live, but in every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God. [5] Then the devil took him up into the holy city, and set him upon the pinnacle of the temple,
And said to him: If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down, for it is written: That he hath given his angels charge over thee, and in their hands shall they bear thee up, lest perhaps thou dash thy foot against a stone. [7] Jesus said to him: It is written again: Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. [8] Again the devil took him up into a very high mountain, and shewed him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them, [9] And said to him: All these will I give thee, if falling down thou wilt adore me. [10] Then Jesus saith to him: Begone, Satan: for it is written, The Lord thy God shalt thou adore, and him only shalt thou serve.

I looked up the Psalms and I believe it is Psalm 118 instead 119, found in the
English translation of the Vulgate, the first Bible.

from the Douay-Rheims Bible:

Psalm 118:9
BETH. By what doth a young man correct his way? by observing thy words.


www.drbo.org...

PRAY A PRAYER, A VERSE FROM SCRIPTURE WHEN YOU ARE TEMPTED BY PORNOGRAPHY.

reply to post by windword


Jesus although The Son Of God, was indeed human... Part of his mission to save our souls required him to beat Satan as a man. Not to mention to set an example for the rest of us.

Being human he was prone to all that we are, and so while he did fast in the desert his body and mind weakened and he would have desired a good many things...

This made him a target for the evil one who like any coward knows when to try and sucker punch his foe. Not so hard to see that for yourself but somehow this seems to have eluded you...

Not much point in going into great detail its all there for any to see, yet you choose to doubt instead of seeing whats real... Whats more this way of thinking keeps you from the truth itself and is why you have no foundation in faith...

All those who say they seek the truth here whom doubt in the messiah, yet marvel at elenin, and live in fear of every other lie that is fed to you here... Get real...

The Church was established by Christ in 33 A.D. Read Matthew 16:18.

I haven't read all the posts but lets make it clear, Jesus was tempted by Satan in the
desert. Tempted, that's it. Our Lord never sinned. He is fully God and He is fully man. The mystery of the Incarnation.

Originally posted by windword
First off let me say that I am NOT a Christain and I'm not trying to pick a fight or insult anybody. I have a question that goes to the charactor of the Biblical representation of Jesus. I am not attacking Jesus, but questioning the logic of the story.

That being said........

I was reading this thread All Roads Lead to Rome which I highly recommend, that ties together brilliantly the not so secret history of the Roman Empire and the Roman Catholic Church, among other things.

When reading about the reign of Constantine and the First Council of Nicaea which is when we see the birth of Christianity and the scriptures cannonized, I started to wonder about something.

Did Satan really tempt Jesus in the desert?

According to the biblical accounts of Mathew, Luke and Mark, Jesus set off on a "vision quest" in the desert and fasted for 40 days, shortly after his babtism by John the Babtist.

During his quest he was tempted by Satan to:

Make bread out of stones to relieve his own hunger

Free himself from a pinnacle by jumping and relying on angels to break his fall. The narrative of both Luke and Matthew has the devil quote Psalm 91:11-12 to show that God had promised this assistance, although the devil implies that the passage may be used to justify presumptuous acts, while the Psalm only promises that God will deliver those who trust and abide in Him.

Worship the devil in return for all the kingdoms of the world. Luke has the devil explicitly claim this authority had previously been handed to himself, the devil.
(Wikipedia)

While I don't have a problem with the symbolism of this story, I have a problem with the "truthiness" of it.

Did Jesus come back, after having been fed by the angels, and tell everyone about his struggle with Satan? Did he go about bragging about his faith in God and that he would not give in to Satan, even though he was sorely tested?

Did he reveal a weakness to his disciples by complaining about the temptation and that nasty Satan? Then bolster himself and his faith by telling the story? The story is not told though the words of Jesus, but by a 3rd party.

It seems out of charactor for Jesus to discuss his conversation with Satan about his relationship with his father. Jesus never said he was tempted by Satan, and I don't think he was!



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edit on 18-9-2011 by windword because: (no reason given)

edit on 18-9-2011 by windword because: (no reason given)

Jesus was not bragging, everything that Jesus did was done to give us an example of how to live. Jesus would certainly want to set an example to humanity on how to deal with Satan, which he did calmly using scripture and rejecting Satan's lies. extra DIV