Conservatives: How do you propose we colonize space?

reply to post by SaturnFX
Innovation, finding a more cost-effective way to go to space is the only answer.
And you won't find that with government.

reply to post by SaturnFX


Every revolutionary idea evokes three stages of reaction:

It's impossible.
It's possible, but not worth doing.
I said it was a good idea all along.

- Arthur C. Clarke

The O.P. begins this reprehensibly limited view of space colonization by reifying. The O.P. claims, with out even making any attempt to support the assertion, that space colonization is "absolutely unprofitable". It is a claim made with the expectation that everyone accept it as an unquestionable truth, but it is not truth that space exploration is unprofitable, unless of course, such an endeavor is left to government. Then, not only is space exploration unprofitable, it becomes a huge drain on the public coffers, and spends far more money on a project than private industry ever would to accomplish the same goal. The O.P. - giving this member the benefit of the doubt - is assuming that because of his own reification of unprofitably, that private industry will not even bother to invest in such an endeavor.

That was giving the O.P. the benefit of the doubt. However, in his O.P. he is all ready giving evidence that he knows full well that private industry is all ready endeavoring to profit from space colonization. Of course the most visible of private business in this field is Virgin Galatic. The O.P. has coyly attempted to diminish the efforts of private industry in space by relegating them to becoming owner operators of "space hotels". However, asteroid mining is by far the most obvious profitable prospect of space colonization.

Asteroid mining refers to the possibility of exploiting raw materials from asteroids and planetoids in space, especially near-Earth objects. Minerals and volatiles could be mined from an asteroid or spent comet to provide space construction material (e.g., iron, nickel, titanium), to extract water and oxygen to sustain the lives of prospector-astronauts on site, as well as hydrogen and oxygen for use as rocket fuel. In space exploration, these activities are referred to as in-situ resource utilization.

en.wikipedia.org...

According to NASA Ames-Research Center:

"In-situ resource utilization will enable the affordable establishment of extraterrestrial exploration and operations by minimizing the materials carried from Earth."

According to John L. Lewis, author of Mining the Sky: untold riches of asteroids, comets, and planets;

Some day, the platinum, cobalt and other valuable elements from asteroids may even be returned to Earth for profit. At 1997 prices, a relatively small metallic asteroid with a diameter of 1.6 km (1 mile) contains more than 20 trillion US dollars worth of industrial and precious metals.

en.wikipedia.org...

20 trillion dollars is 6 trillion dollars more than the United States current national debt that so many are convinced has reached the point of no return and cannot possibly be paid.

As far back as 1999, BBC News reported:

The most detailed study of an asteroid shows that it contains precious metals worth at least $20,000bn.

....

That means Eros is a goldmine in space, as well as a platinum mine, a zinc mine and many more minerals besides.

If Eros is typical of stony meteorites, then it contains about 3% metal. With the known abundance's of metals in meteorites, even a very cautious estimate suggests 20,000 million tonnes of aluminium along with similar amounts of gold, platinum and other rarer metals.

news.bbc.co.uk...

With this in mind, if all Branson and Virgin Galactic accomplished in space exploration was the establishment of a "space hotels", this would be a necessary step towards mining asteroids. Depots along the way makes good sense. More importantly given that the estimates of precious metals and minerals on asteroids and comets are yielding such spectacular numbers, this is just to compelling to the entrepreneurial spirit to be ignored.

The notion that asteroids can be profitably mined is not so far fetched, and the belief is held by more than just a few people. Consider these links:

www.space-settlement-institute.org...

www.scienceclarified.com...

I would stick around to criticize the O.P.'s reifications further, but apparently my inactivity in this site of late brings a punishment of character limitation and as of this sentence I have less than 180 characters left.

Suffice it to say that private industry will no doubt flourish and prosper in space once that ball is finally rolling.

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


Nice..Star for you

Quick question though, the info is pretty much well established as you point out just how profitable space exploitation will be for private industry

now, as I look out my window, why am I not seeing any corporate space miners being launched, or even built?

Oh...right, because it costs too much for any one company to get rolling...
Once rolling, sure...opportunists will jump on and even enhance the "space road" made for crazy amounts of money...but ya, I don't see any corporation stepping up to the plate beyond ponderings.

Virgin Galactic...when they were first kicking around the galactic name, started as an intent to get a proper space station for the public in LEO...
And now thats over because it was too expensive to initiate...so now they offer a airplane ride high up to let you float around for a little bit...woopie, I can get the same experience in a pool.
So yes, galactic is a good discussion to have...What happened then Ricky? oh...right, because even though your empire is a beast, you still can't flip such a bill as space colonization.

You can point out how long term, space will be very profitable...and I fully accept that..hell, I see that as one damn good reason to get this ball rolling, but again, no corporation will truely make any play for it due to prohibitive costs. Branson understood that enough to smash down his ideals

But hey, I suppose we can all just sit back in the developed west and pray that god gives us some space ships...meanwhile let the far east take over yet another bloody western idea and call it theirs...we can stick to our ideals until we are bickering about which side of the caves we live in is best considering we are hell bent on civilization devolution
Me, I guess I better learn mandarin...they will be the one calling all the shots soon enough anyhow.

Any true innovation in propulsion, habitation will take place is the basements, home offices, back rooms of single inventors.
Not in corporate boardrooms, warehouses, or government buildings.

reply to post by Signals

However our government has hidden TRILLIONS of dollars from us, for who knows what? (see Rumsfeld speech - 9/10/01...day before 9/11) Secret space program?

Naw man that got debunked... (www.911myths.com...)

Star trek had a socialist government.

I love it

Things that are not profitable for humankind on some level tend not to progress and expand. Thats why we will only start colonizing space when it becomes profitable for us in some way. Humans are driven by fear of not surviving and desire to grow. Therefore, some causes for space exploration can be:

* To build settlements on Mars (thus overcoming overpopulation and terrestrial conflicts over land)

* To vacation in space (beginning with the rich and then eventually trickling down to everyone being able to afford it)

* To mine for resources on Mars

Those three come to mind spontaneously.

Government is better at initial development of radically new technologies where profit is too unsure or too far in the future to interest private capital.

Private companies are better at bringing these technologies to practical use and improving them, once the first phase is over.

I believe spaceflight industry has already reached the point where private companies can start to take over. Virgin Galactic is a suborbital, its just a glorified plane, but look what SpaceX, Bigelow Aerospace or Reaction Engines Ltd. are doing. Thats the future of human spaceflight.

EDIT: And make no mistake, all this private human spaceflight is ultimately funded mostly by public money, and will be for a long time. The profit is simply not there without the gov.

Originally posted by SaturnFX
But hey, I suppose we can all just sit back in the developed west and pray that god gives us some space ships...meanwhile let the far east take over yet another bloody western idea and call it theirs...we can stick to our ideals until we are bickering about which side of the caves we live in is best considering we are hell bent on civilization devolution

Bwahahahahaha! *pauses to give you the Porky Pig as Friar Tuck tear in the eye* Bwaahahahahahahaha!

1. Considering every congregation I've ever been in would find this behavior foolish, even unscriptural, and could back it up with verse after verse, I can't take your complaint seriously. I'm not knocking for praying for spaceships, but that as the SOLE RESPONSE? Seriously?
2. NASA, with it's funding cut, is still moving forward--had a link on it today.
3. Go make a personal donation to NASA, if you're so worried about it.

Me, I guess I better learn mandarin...they will be the one calling all the shots soon enough anyhow.

Considering that China has a growing Christian population (thread about that is on here, by the way), you're not going to get away from what you are crying about by learning a new language.

Originally posted by beezzer
Any true innovation in propulsion, habitation will take place is the basements, home offices, back rooms of single inventors.
Not in corporate boardrooms, warehouses, or government buildings.

But, the innovation for infrustructure typically is so cost prohibitive that corporations generally don't deal with it.
You cant expect great things to happen in a organization that is trying to look for maximum returns within a year, or in some areas, a quarter.
it may be a 10, 20, or even 50 year R&D cycle that no organization beyond a non-profit (gov) would even consider working on. Investors are funny like that.

Now, I think that the actual science should be given to commecial enterprises..not one, but a couple to compete for the money in each stage. This will streamline the process, give some good corporate focus verses government red tape issues, and be the best of both worlds, but that still requires the government to play the biggest role

Originally posted by CynicalDrivel

Originally posted by SaturnFX
But hey, I suppose we can all just sit back in the developed west and pray that god gives us some space ships...meanwhile let the far east take over yet another bloody western idea and call it theirs...we can stick to our ideals until we are bickering about which side of the caves we live in is best considering we are hell bent on civilization devolution

Bwahahahahaha! *pauses to give you the Porky Pig as Friar Tuck tear in the eye* Bwaahahahahahahaha!

Insightful. or at least telling as to what sort of mindset I am about to deal with.
-checks "born on" date and is not suprised-

1. Considering every congregation I've ever been in would find this behavior foolish, even unscriptural, and could back it up with verse after verse, I can't take your complaint seriously. I'm not knocking for praying for spaceships, but that as the SOLE RESPONSE? Seriously?

Was not meaning literal...but unless we have a clear plan on how to get from ground dwelling monkeys to putting habitation models on mars, and various moons/space stations/etc, then we might as well just be praying or daydreaming of ETs doing it for us. Thats the point.
Too much idealistic talk with no specifics, meanwhile we kill off the specifics.

2. NASA, with it's funding cut, is still moving forward--had a link on it today.

Moving forward into redundancy, yes.
I, sitting here in brevard county, florida, watch as nasa is becoming little more than a space bug launcher. our astronauts are now bidding on flights with the russians. the planned moon trip is scrubbed. no..we are done.

The most important endevor is being cut down to nothing, meanwhile defense spending is spiking to the tune of a trillion a year. some idiot decided its a good idea to lower corporate tax rates to -zero- percent (because that will somehow create jobs..ya...sorry, but our employees still demand wages above slave labor chinese..so no, it won't create jobs, it will just give even more wealth to corporations)

Imagine for just a moment we took a single year...decided not to build bombs, continue wars, fuel jets, etc...for a single year the only thing we did was pay just enough to keep a light standing military at home and the lights on...now, imagine the rest of that money, oh, say 300 billion dollars is a good estimate...imagine that going to nasa for something big..but along with that some financial managers to make sure every single dollar counts.
We would have within a few years, buildings in mars, on the moon, waypoint stations, science stations, perhaps even a few dozen probes towing asteroids close to earth for mining purposes

Instead, we got nothing...we got nasa (Now A Salvation Army) as a mothball organization of flopped dreams. I tell you, the cold war didn't end...they just infiltrated the conservative movement and hit a self destruct button on our dreams, goals, and ideals.

3. Go make a personal donation to NASA, if you're so worried about it.

I Do
I pay taxes. I want my money going towards the progression of our species into space...not making bombs so random brown people countrys can make a few corporate profit lines a bit more black.

Its my tax dollars, I got a say. I am shocked frankly that more people aren't demanding our dollars go towards something that improves humanity verses something that destroys it a little bit more.

Me, I guess I better learn mandarin...they will be the one calling all the shots soon enough anyhow.

Considering that China has a growing Christian population (thread about that is on here, by the way), you're not going to get away from what you are crying about by learning a new language.

I am not complaining about Christians actually, I am rallying against conservatism...re-read the headline.

Originally posted by SaturnFX

Originally posted by CynicalDrivel

Originally posted by SaturnFX
But hey, I suppose we can all just sit back in the developed west and pray that god gives us some space ships...meanwhile let the far east take over yet another bloody western idea and call it theirs...we can stick to our ideals until we are bickering about which side of the caves we live in is best considering we are hell bent on civilization devolution

Bwahahahahaha! *pauses to give you the Porky Pig as Friar Tuck tear in the eye* Bwaahahahahahahaha!

Insightful. or at least telling as to what sort of mindset I am about to deal with.
-checks "born on" date and is not suprised-

Yeah, I'm 30. But the reason I even know that reference is because my other made me watch it. She was born in 63. I just wanted you to have a clear understanding of how hard I was laughing at the entirety of the statement.

Just a note, when you mean only a specific segment of people, and you wind up smearing a much larger group, I don't find it responsible, and it deserves to be laughed at. Don't get me wrong, I'm going to wind up doing it myself. Feel free to laugh and correct me when what I meant doesn't match what I say.

...I've got a Saints game to watch so anything else will have to wait until probably even tomorrow. Who Dat!

Saturn I think the second flaw in your analysis is the fact that you think nothing can happen without the government stepping in and doing something.

Lets picture an experiment where you leave a case of beer in a refigerator in a controlled room with nothing but a group of 10 college kids. I guarantee you they will eventually figure out a way to open the beer without you providing them with a bottle opener.

reply to post by SaturnFX


The first thing I thought of when I read the title to your thread is....it may be colonized already. I have a theory....I think that quite some time ago TPTB in several nations got together....and well.....many years later....there are already many humans from Earth living in space. You know all those people that are never ever found...no trace at all....some of them may be living experiments on other Planets.

Ok...now..go ahead and flame me...but before you do...remember...often times the truth sounds like a theory.

reply to post by SaturnFX

Quick question though, the info is pretty much well established as you point out just how profitable space exploitation will be for private industry now, as I look out my window, why am I not seeing any corporate space miners being launched, or even built?

I suppose you realize this, but it is worth pointing out that this "quick question" you ask, you did so with the full on intent of answering it yourself:

Oh...right, because it costs too much for any one company to get rolling... Once rolling, sure...opportunists will jump on and even enhance the "space road" made for crazy amounts of money...but ya, I don't see any corporation stepping up to the plate beyond ponderings.

You have seen Virgin Galactic step up to the plate, but instead of acknowledging that you insisted on calling it Virgin Atlantic and reduced their effort to nothing more than possible "space hotels". In a later post responding to someone else you made this claim:

Fact is, this is catagorically untrue. Government makes infrustructure so that businesses can invent gizmo's off of it, be it automobiles, webpages, operating systems, etc.

Here are the facts: The automobile was not invented because government built a whole bunch of roads that create a demand for automobiles. Whatever roads existed at the time of the advent of the automobile, they existed to facilitate the horse and buggy traffic. Once the automobile was invented, it became necessary to facilitate roads and streets, and ultimately highways, byways, and freeways to facilitate the traffic created by automobile use. You are attempting to reverse this reality and call it fact.

Operating systems do not exist because government first paved the way for them. Operating systems were developed by private industry and government took advantage of these operating systems. Again, you are attempting to make it appear as if operating systems and computers exist because government made it so. That is just not anywhere near the facts.

In fact, you seem to have a real problem with the facts, and if the facts get in your way then you redefine what fact means as if this would remove the obstacles you face in making a sound argument. Your dismissal of Branson's efforts with Virgin Galactic continue:

Virgin Galactic...when they were first kicking around the galactic name, started as an intent to get a proper space station for the public in LEO... And now thats over because it was too expensive to initiate...so now they offer a airplane ride high up to let you float around for a little bit...woopie, I can get the same experience in a pool. So yes, galactic is a good discussion to have...What happened then Ricky? oh...right, because even though your empire is a beast, you still can't flip such a bill as space colonization.

You waste your time deriding Virgin Galactic for failing to achieve a goal and subsequently attempt to recoup that cost as being something that proves your point, but all it does is show your proclivity for disregarding other peoples genuine efforts. You declare victory with your argument because thus far private industry has failed to colonize space, ignoring the fact that government has failed to colonize space also, the difference being that Branson is not plundering people and not forcing a soul to do business with him, but government, particularly the United States, has spent billions upon billions of dollars to fail at colonizing space and has spent that money by plundering the people who gave them the dubious authority to fail as they have.

Again, I am compelled to point out that apparently my recent inactivity has come with a punishment and I am limited in my characters available, so this will have to do for this post. There just are not enough characters left to address the remainder of your reply. Respectfully, this annoyance almost convinced me not to bother to post at all, but I think this argument is a good one and worth having.

Best,

JPZ

Originally posted by SaturnFX
Was not meaning literal...but unless we have a clear plan on how to get from ground dwelling monkeys to putting habitation models on mars, and various moons/space stations/etc, then we might as well just be praying or daydreaming of ETs doing it for us. Thats the point.
Too much idealistic talk with no specifics, meanwhile we kill off the specifics.

Ok, that makes far more sense than how I read that. But you got to admit, the haranguing was a bit foam-at-the-mouth. There is a better way of expressing these sentiments without making it look like you mean that certain systems of reasoning are the cause--especially when the type your potentially slandering are the exact ones accused of not voting for Obama in the first place (whether those who pray actually voted for Obama is really a crap-shoot). It was worded to cause a reaction, whether or not you meant to, and I was going to laugh.

2. NASA, with it's funding cut, is still moving forward--had a link on it today.

Moving forward into redundancy, yes.
I, sitting here in brevard county, florida, watch as nasa is becoming little more than a space bug launcher. our astronauts are now bidding on flights with the russians. the planned moon trip is scrubbed. no..we are done.

The most important endevor is being cut down to nothing, meanwhile defense spending is spiking to the tune of a trillion a year. some idiot decided its a good idea to lower corporate tax rates to -zero- percent (because that will somehow create jobs..ya...sorry, but our employees still demand wages above slave labor chinese..so no, it won't create jobs, it will just give even more wealth to corporations)

As long as jobs are allowed ot outsource to other countries, there's no way to keep the labor needed here. The only reason we're sitting pretty for jobs where I live is because US ships still have to be built in the US (And considering what I've heard, it's a good idea that they are Other countries cut metal to plan, while the US cuts slightly over, which allows for expansion and cooling of metal--far more complicated than how I expressed it. This is a side-note in a conversation I held with my father some 10 years ago, from when the Dutch bought the shipyard and brought over some engineers.) Well, that and Gindall just signed some stuff to reinforce no illegal aliens on the job site.

Besides, if you're going to cut taxes, cut them for the small businesses.

Imagine for just a moment we took a single year...decided not to build bombs, continue wars, fuel jets, etc...for a single year the only thing we did was pay just enough to keep a light standing military at home and the lights on...now, imagine the rest of that money, oh, say 300 billion dollars is a good estimate...imagine that going to nasa for something big..but along with that some financial managers to make sure every single dollar counts.

I'd like this, honestly. But all that would happen is that these people would be laid off and would need jobs. Unemployment would go through the roof, negating a lot of that gain--if not all. That's a lot of veterans to leave without a plan for the future. That's a lot of G.I. bills to put through at one time. I doubt there would be a surplus of 100 mil. or even 50 mil. when accounting for all the negative financial impact this would create. Now, 10 years down the road? It just depends on what rules we have in place by then, and how much those military boys are not born of the slacker generation (now how's that for a slur, ~hey, my generation. I like laziness, just don't see that I can afford to be).

We would have within a few years, buildings in mars, on the moon, waypoint stations, science stations, perhaps even a few dozen probes towing asteroids close to earth for mining purposes

Could, not would. These are bureaucrats--they've got people to pay off, for cutting the military, if/when they did.

Instead, we got nothing...we got nasa (Now A Salvation Army) as a mothball organization of flopped dreams. I tell you, the cold war didn't end...they just infiltrated the conservative movement and hit a self destruct button on our dreams, goals, and ideals.

*sigh* I am for cutting big government spending, I am conservative (far more than most people I meet) and I'm not necessarily for this particular cut. I have a huge problem cutting a space program over cutting a person off from welfare who never even attempted to work a day in their life. Besides, the man in office is not a conservative--he's somewhere between a Socialist and a Communist. During the actual race to the moon, the reason the Ruskies didn't beat us there was because they're not a fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants country, and every step was tied up in bureaucracy. Bigger Government Control never made it to the moon. We have more Government than we did when we went.

Conservatives care about destroying the earth and rolling back any form of environmental protection we attempt. They dont care about the planet we do live on, and dont think past their own life span.. You really think they are planing that far ahead?

reply to post by Jean Paul ZodeauxPart 2:

3. Go make a personal donation to NASA, if you're so worried about it.

I Do
I pay taxes. I want my money going towards the progression of our species into space...not making bombs so random brown people countrys can make a few corporate profit lines a bit more black.

Its my tax dollars, I got a say. I am shocked frankly that more people aren't demanding our dollars go towards something that improves humanity verses something that destroys it a little bit more.

I'm betting you know I meant above and beyond your taxes. You vote with your dollar as much as you do in an election. I know that the IRS has a site set up so you can donate money specifically to paying the debt of this country. I'm willing to bet NASA has a donation site as well.

The thing is I don't see going into outer space as a means to improve humanity. I see it as escapism. Helping improve humanity is:
1.Feeding the poor, and getting them to the point where they can feed themselves.
2.Protecting everyone's rights.
3.Get us off a "teaching to the test" system.
5. Improving mass-produced food.

The list goes on and on. Until we fix those things, building a habitat for humanity out there just insures that the b.s. we do out here is dragged with us out there. If Vulcans really existed, I'd not want them to meet who most of are right now.

Me, I guess I better learn mandarin...they will be the one calling all the shots soon enough anyhow.

Considering that China has a growing Christian population (thread about that is on here, by the way), you're not going to get away from what you are crying about by learning a new language.

I am not complaining about Christians actually, I am rallying against conservatism...re-read the headline.

Yes, your overall complaint is to conservatives. but when you start a seperate posts aside from your opener that spews something about monkeys in the trees and praying for a spaceship, along with this statement, I'm going to deal with WHO PRAYS and if I'm in the mood, the tree-monkey (as in WHO DOES THIS IRRITATE THE MOST?) RE: Christians.

The way this particular post I'm originally responding to makes it seem like you want to forever associate Christianity and Conservatism. You started it by saying prayer. As soon as you say something about prayer, you ask for a conversation about those who pray.

Look at Tea Party Space Platform to see how conservatives want to do human spaceflight. As a space enthusiast, I have to say I do fully agree with them on space issues:

www.teainspace.com...

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


ok, I think we are both semi-aiming at the same goal.
You are producing evidence that innovation is for the most part a private sector thing, I am suggesting innovation for large scale things are pretty moot without governments involved. I think we are both right.

The automobile is a interesting and perfect example of how both private and government sectors work together to realize a vision.

Government builds the infrustructure, private organizations supply the innovation..its how it always works and works well. Consider the automobile...this came from the invention of the combustable engine, which in turn has two other parts
Railroads and steam engines
The locomotive is a private design also, yet massive federal funding went in laying down the tracks across the states once they seen how much this could open up the union...the bill was flipped, the rail laid down, and commercial enterprise flourished. (and the money spent on it was eventually paid back ten fold and advanced the nation dramatically in the process).

What government needs to do, from what my argument is, is to invest heavily in sub-light engineering, get us going %.25 the speed of light and get that technology working well...then work with private industries to build crafts...initially this will be prohibitively expensive as I have been stating for any one or several organizations together. Once things kick off and it becomes feasable for corporations to start building large crafts, colonys on mars and such, etc...then hand most of it over to the public for consumption.

I hammer Virgin -atlantic- mostly out of disappointment..but not suprised disappointment. I remember when it was first discussed, and it was like a child walking out to an olympic race while stating they are going to win gold...you sort of want it to be true, but you know better.
And yep, no suprise when the results are as expected...lets be honest, they offer high altitude airplane rides, which is not something unique to their "galactic" quests..once they can reach a stable orbit and toss out even a port-a-potty with a bed inside, I may consider their "galactic" claim..until then, they are simply flying a bit higher than your normal 747
And I do hope Richard the best in his endevors...I quite like the man, a "good" billionare in my opinion...but I won't stroke his ego and acknowledge a dream as being a reality...in fact, his attempt may have had negative consequences...such as people suddenly pointing at him as (supposedly) proof that a corporation can enter into a space race and kill off the need for places like NASA...and it was probably all just a hoax anyhow in order to market his airplane rides.

Good discussion either way...and thanks for giving a reasonable other side of the coin discussion.